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Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Except that the reward FAR outweighs the risk. Perils could happen yes, but there have been literally dozens of batreps floating around showing that perils isn't exactly a worry. Hitting the 4+ is a 50-50 shot, and there is something to that, but honestly to summon a unit, it doesn't take much. No army in 40K should EVER be allowed to grow exponentially like that. To abusive and way to overpowered.

I agree it would be a terrible thing. I dont have any of those cheese lists and I still feel it would be a horrible thing to do.

Players just need to learn to play better. Gw doesnt care about its player base.. that was obvious with 6th edition rules and its polished turd brother 7th edition they had 2 years to listen to their players about some severe flaws and they didnt. They just went in the same direction even harder.

So players just need to find a way to make lists which are good against most lists even for those players who must have the winning cheese ball lists and win at all costs even if it ruins the game play... Just have to find a way to shut their shenanigans down.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
Except that the reward FAR outweighs the risk. Perils could happen yes, but there have been literally dozens of batreps floating around showing that perils isn't exactly a worry. Hitting the 4+ is a 50-50 shot, and there is something to that, but honestly to summon a unit, it doesn't take much. No army in 40K should EVER be allowed to grow exponentially like that. To abusive and way to overpowered.

It's actually an odd catch. It's a joke on brotherhoods unless you roll a 2. A single model really does hurt though especially as many are only 2W. It's very odd.

True, Summoning could be breaking the system, but a Flat Warp Charge Cap to counter Summoning hinders those who are not going to use Summoning.
My Grey Knights for Fluff reasons will never Cast Summponing.
You really want to cap Summoning WYSIWYG should be the way to go.

The big issue I am seeing is some of the arbitrary number I have seen.
>10 points: My TAC Grey Knights coume out to 11+1d6 Warp Charges
>15 Points: Same Grey Knights a roll of 4+ maxes me out
>20 Points: Would not affect me much.

Also how many dice are bing used to cast a 3 Warp Charge Power?

I am looking at mt Rune Priest [Level-2] trying to cast Priesance I am going to be using 3d normaly 4d if I want to hedge my bet.
If I am going to try to cast a 3 Charge power I probably going to use 4d-5d and that is if I get a good dice roll.

Statistically, you should need 6 dice to consistently get a ML3 Power off, and that's assuming that your enemy doesn't have enough dice to deny. (Now, admittedly since it's always going to be a 6+ against Conjuration, the Deny is not too much of a threat.) That means that an army with 30 Warp Charges (Not too hard if you're Chaos in an 1850 game) should be getting, on average, 5 powers off. That's 50 new Daemons coming in from nowhere. Or, if you're in an even more cynical mood and get lots of good rolls to generate your powers, you could get around 15 Heralds.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Statistically, you should need 6 dice to consistently get a ML3 Power off, and that's assuming that your enemy doesn't have enough dice to deny. (Now, admittedly since it's always going to be a 6+ against Conjuration, the Deny is not too much of a threat.) That means that an army with 30 Warp Charges (Not too hard if you're Chaos in an 1850 game) should be getting, on average, 5 powers off. That's 50 new Daemons coming in from nowhere. Or, if you're in an even more cynical mood and get lots of good rolls to generate your powers, you could get around 15 Heralds.

To me, this does not justify Punishing those who are not going to abuse Summoning.
I have seen to many "Blanket Salutions" be bad for everyone out there.

1] WYSIWYG: Litmits the Abusers to those with the cash and time to buy and Build 15 Heradls/50 Others
2] The simpler one [Though I hate House Rules] Summond Creatures can not take Summoning Powers.

Those two examples that hurt no one realy and are easy to implement.

Capping it I do not like at all.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

Another agument against Warp Chage Caps, they did not work with WFB.

 Anpu42 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

Another agument against Warp Chage Caps, they did not work with WFB.

Dindt fix it != Didnt help.

 Anpu42 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

Another agument against Warp Chage Caps, they did not work with WFB.

I thought 8th brought in the Power Dice cap. VC/Dark Elves/Daemons reign of terror was in the uncapped 7th era which had a very similar set up to the new 40k system.

My biggest worry is what happens when the inevitable Codex additions to the Psyker system allowing people to succeed on 3+ etc.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

Another agument against Warp Chage Caps, they did not work with WFB.

I thought 8th brought in the Power Dice cap. VC/Dark Elves/Daemons reign of terror was in the uncapped 7th era which had a very similar set up to the new 40k system.

My biggest worry is what happens when the inevitable Codex additions to the Psyker system allowing people to succeed on 3+ etc.

If you were going for straight out vanilla, it was more like VC>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dark Elves/Daemons.

I remember the VC forums at the time, lol, it was not about how to win, but how to win with out ruining the game for your opponent.

8ths is the best system to day, it is not RAW power what scales with your casters, its your versatility, thus bringing a lot of casters gives you many more options, with out completely shutting down bringing just the few for very specific things. Really the best mechanics to date.

The other very viable option would be to replace 40ks 7th mechanics with Fantasys 8th and figure appropriate casting costs for the spells. I have to say i am very much so leaning this way.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

Another agument against Warp Chage Caps, they did not work with WFB.

I thought 8th brought in the Power Dice cap. VC/Dark Elves/Daemons reign of terror was in the uncapped 7th era which had a very similar set up to the new 40k system.

My biggest worry is what happens when the inevitable Codex additions to the Psyker system allowing people to succeed on 3+ etc.

If you were going for straight out vanilla, it was more like VC>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dark Elves/Daemons.

I remember the VC forums at the time, lol, it was not about how to win, but how to win with out ruining the game for your opponent.

8ths is the best system to day, it is not RAW power what scales with your casters, its your versatility, thus bringing a lot of casters gives you many more options, with out completely shutting down bringing just the few for very specific things. Really the best mechanics to date.

Interesting my memories of 7th are of Daemons being the worst offenders. To be fair we didn't have a lot of VC players at the time.

I completely agree about the 8th Magic system. I was really hoping that 40k would go with a system very close to it especially the target number system as it allows a better ability to assign difficulty to different spells.

An interesting cap would be d6+20. It's already a good number of WCs.

GW put the Psychic Phase to bring a new light over psykers, but I doubt their intent was to transform the game in a WC race. Psykers are cool, but hardly the main force in the battlefield.

The Herald summoning power should cost 3 WC, not 1.

 Anpu42 wrote:
My Grey Knights for Fluff reasons will never Cast Summponing.

Your GK, for Rules reasons will never cast Summoning. GK is the only army that cannot use Malefic powers. At all.

 Purifier wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
My Grey Knights for Fluff reasons will never Cast Summponing.

Your GK, for Rules reasons will never cast Summoning. GK is the only army that cannot use Malefic powers. At all.

But there's no limiter on how to use their warp charges. Ally in a half dozen Primaris Psykers and use them to do yiur dirty work.

All the people who want to talk about game mechanics of psychic powers really should be aware of the maths. I keep hearing things like "5 dice will usually get a WC3 power off" but 50% means failing as often as succeeding. When I hear a coin flip I am not thinking reliable.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596200.page

For all the people who think that a straight cap is a great thing, just imagine a maxed out chaos daemons list that produces 40 WC a turn. Now imagine all of those go into manifesting flickering fire WC3 at 5 dice a pop. So 8 maxed flickering fires a turn, right? Well not really, you will average 4 flickering fires a turn without any deny the witch attempts. This is 56 S5 AP4 shots, sounds great, right? This number of shots still needs to roll to hit, wound, saves, FnP, and doesn't ignore cover or have skyfire. This is the ranged output of an entire 1750 pts chaos daemon army and ignores deny the witch which even a single libby SM list can manage for 1 of those powers.

Tau laugh at this as you spend 1750 pts to get the same output as 600 pts of fire warriors (your AP4 vs AP5 but the tau can ignore cover, etc. and your BS4 but DtW vs Tau BS3 but multiple buffs possible). IG can lay down an average of 87 S5 hits a shooting phase for 960 pts from 6 punisher leman russ'.

Let us assume a WC20 cap...so you cut that is half and now you are left with 400-300 pts of shooting ability from a 1750 pts list.

I know I will get a lot of people saying but malefic! Why would you ever make a sweeping change based on a single discipline. Did anyone propose a cap to shooting phases when D weapons were introduced? If I bring a Tau list versus a daemons of tzeentch list and cap the daemon's psychic phase shouldn't I also cap my shooting phase where it is an utter blow out?

Completely agree, a cap is short sighted and too knee jerk.

If the Summoning thing was not in the BRB I don't believe this would even be an issue.

Sorry,
I read the book very quickly and I don't understand one thing about summoning: is written somewhere that the summoned deamons points can exceed the point limits?
I can have an unbound army with a couple of unit of deamons or a Tzeench army and I can use the summonig power to re-deploy a previolsly dead unit.

The system is good and reasonable. The problem is codex ballance. Cause previously written casters in codexes were not oriented towards the warpcharge common pool.

The moment henchmen stop generating charges, heralds get limited to ML2 and horrors need 10 models minimum to generate a single WC the problem will be solved. Houserule it. Or wait till new codexes - i'm sure, gw will go that route.

 koooaei wrote:
The system is good and reasonable. The problem is codex ballance. Cause previously written casters in codexes were not oriented towards the warpcharge common pool.

The moment henchmen stop generating charges, heralds get limited to ML2 and horrors need 10 models minimum to generate a single WC the problem will be solved. Houserule it. Or wait till new codexes - i'm sure, gw will go that route.

You do realize, that historically speaking, in every edition at least half the codex's belong to some previous one?. What gives you the idea this edition will be even remotely different?. And then again, codex creep, been there forever, no sign its going away any time soon, so if anything, things are likely to get worst.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The system is good and reasonable. The problem is codex ballance. Cause previously written casters in codexes were not oriented towards the warpcharge common pool.

The moment henchmen stop generating charges, heralds get limited to ML2 and horrors need 10 models minimum to generate a single WC the problem will be solved. Houserule it. Or wait till new codexes - i'm sure, gw will go that route.

You do realize, that historically speaking, in every edition at least half the codex's belong to some previous one?. What gives you the idea this edition will be even remotely different?. And then again, codex creep, been there forever, no sign its going away any time soon, so if anything, things are likely to get worst.

Houserule it. On the whole, this system is way more interesting than plain ld check.

 koooaei wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The system is good and reasonable. The problem is codex ballance. Cause previously written casters in codexes were not oriented towards the warpcharge common pool.

The moment henchmen stop generating charges, heralds get limited to ML2 and horrors need 10 models minimum to generate a single WC the problem will be solved. Houserule it. Or wait till new codexes - i'm sure, gw will go that route.

You do realize, that historically speaking, in every edition at least half the codex's belong to some previous one?. What gives you the idea this edition will be even remotely different?. And then again, codex creep, been there forever, no sign its going away any time soon, so if anything, things are likely to get worst.

Houserule it. On the whole, this system is way more interesting than plain ld check.

It is essentially the position of the OP, not to house rule, and the position of night everybody else, that balance on vanilla is night a train wreck.

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/warhammer-40k-7th-ed-video-bat-rep-daemons-vs-imperials/

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/26/warhammer-40k-video-bat-rep-7th-ed-eldar-vs-necrons/

Educate yourselves... see it at work... then tell me if the psychic phase is fine out of the box

It's all easy to ballance out with what i've proposed. Limiting the easy warpcharge generation as the current codexes are not designed for the system, obviously.

The system itself is interesting.

 Lobukia wrote:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/warhammer-40k-7th-ed-video-bat-rep-daemons-vs-imperials/

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/26/warhammer-40k-video-bat-rep-7th-ed-eldar-vs-necrons/

Educate yourselves... see it at work... then tell me if the psychic phase is fine out of the box

I am not saying there is NOT an Issue, in fact I agree there is an Issue.

I just don't think the Cap is the salution.

 koooaei wrote:
It's all easy to ballance out with what i've proposed. Limiting the easy warpcharge generation as the current codexes are not designed for the system, obviously.

The system itself is interesting.

And that would be grate if editions were self contained. Sadly that is not the case and every edition has to be judged on the basis of how it interacts with existing codexes.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

A max at like 15-20 (without the d6 of course) Woudnt hamper either army (Eldar or Daemons) unless they were going for daemon factory.

Or you know shooting if you are daemons....the issue with a warp charge cap is that GW designed an army in which their regular shooting is nearly all psychic. So if I want to shoot at all with any reliability I am throwing 3 dice just to shoot, so now capping at 15 means that I can shoot 5 times, if I do nothing else....and that is min shooting, if I want to make a WC 2 or 3 shot, oh well now I'm shooting twice....groan.

Better solution is "An army can only generate each power once, with the exception of those granted by psychic focus."

No more spam summoning for daemons as they would have at best 3(4?) summoning powers (1 primaris, Herald, Greater daemon) in the whole army, and those new summoned units would be unable to summon more.

Which means having more psykers grants, reliability of getting powers, and variety, but not the ability to spam summon.

Now another army could try to spam summon at great risk to their psykers.