Death Corp > Space marine... *hangs head in shame*

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**BlaxicanX**

Which is silly considering there is nothing "realistic" about the DKoK's preferred method of warfare.

**Bobthehero**

It was realistic about 100 years ago. Blown out of proportion in a way only 40k can do, but still.

**jhe90**

Pretty normal for ww1 trench's, bayonet charges, barage, armour acting more staticly and basicly a meat grinder of a war,
Man chewed up by the mechanical machines of war and shown how frail humans truely are.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?

Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.

That whole “super-stuff” really draws the focus away from dehumanization. To make a culinary comparison, it is like making pasta with a good tomato sauce, and then pouring a ton of ketchup over it. You will just taste the ketchup and it will taste cheap.

**Tannhauser42**

This may have already been stated by someone else, but the only problem I have with the DKoK fluff is their numbers. They seem to be everywhere, in every major conflict, suffering huge losses. Where are all these soldiers coming from, though? How does one world, that barely can support life, shattered by a devastating civil war, produce enough soldiers to be present at all these conflicts? Do the women give birth to twins or triplets every year?

**BlaxicanX**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?

Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.

I'm assuming that in this metaphor, Space Marines are the former and the DKoK are the latter?

Spoiler- There is no objective argument you can make that would say otherwise.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm assuming that in this metaphor, Space Marines are the former and the DKoK are the latter?

Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Kriegsman shredding a tank with his bare hands, or surviving being stepped on by a titan? Because there are examples of both those events for the marines. I did not choose them at random.

**BlaxicanX**

Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?

Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.

**Vaktathi**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
This may have already been stated by someone else, but the only problem I have with the DKoK fluff is their numbers. They seem to be everywhere, in every major conflict, suffering huge losses. Where are all these soldiers coming from, though? How does one world, that barely can support life, shattered by a devastating civil war, produce enough soldiers to be present at all these conflicts? Do the women give birth to twins or triplets every year?

FW has been somewhat intentionally vague on that, but they do give hints about something called a "Vitae Womb" and hint at other things that supposedly are usually frowned on by Imperial authorities, but in the case of Krieg are given a pass to continue producing soldiers.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Which is silly considering there is nothing "realistic" about the DKoK's preferred method of warfare.

There's nothing realistic about most 40k warfare. The DKoK at least is somewhat accurate to a period of actual human history, as opposed to having genetically engineered super soldiers or ancient mystic aliens with access to any advanced weaponry they want charging into battle with swords and fists.

**Furyou Miko**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?

Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.

Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

Hey thats cute. SM rejects become chapter serfs. D'awwwww. Dkok rejects become targets in live fire exercises. That gak is hardcore.

**ZebioLizard2**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?

Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.

I'm assuming that in this metaphor, Space Marines are the former and the DKoK are the latter?

Spoiler- There is no objective argument you can make that would say otherwise.

As Vakthai mentioned, Vitae Wombs, which according to some sources is a 'cloning tank' which one of the theories is that the DkoK is actually one guy being reproduced infinitely, and as a result the masks are to hide the face of the same man.

Or its a super-fast piece of birthing technology that's been banned in the Imperium due to various things, whether imperfections, mutations (which might incidentally be a reason why the masks too), and various other things.

It's rather vague, one of the few things that is still a mystery in 40k.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
This may have already been stated by someone else, but the only problem I have with the DKoK fluff is their numbers. They seem to be everywhere, in every major conflict, suffering huge losses. Where are all these soldiers coming from, though? How does one world, that barely can support life, shattered by a devastating civil war, produce enough soldiers to be present at all these conflicts? Do the women give birth to twins or triplets every year?

drugs

**Vaktathi**

Furyou Miko wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?

Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.

Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.

Rough terrain or a couple hand grenades can do that. I don't think I'd equate tread removal with "Shredding a tank".

**Furyou Miko**

Well, how about they can do it in game, and everyone knows that the Astartes only get less awesome on the table top (so they must be better in fluff!)

**Vaktathi**

They can plink them to death 3 times in an assault, so can a heavy stubber if it gets into the rear arc. I don't think I'd consider that "shredding", unless you want to count S6 krak grenades as part of that.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

Everything is less awesome on the tabletop and if it is not imperial is horrid in the uplifting primer.

**Ashiraya**

The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Everything is less awesome on the tabletop

I disagree. Do you have anything to back this up or did you just forget an 'in my opinion' in this sentence?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Furyou Miko wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?

Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.

Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.

Not quite, it is Death of Antagonis, a novel where a chapter of Space Marines known as Black Dragons team up with SoB and Guard survivors to fight Plague Zombies, Chaos renegades and CSM. The Black Dragons are a chapter of Space Marines with a few genetic defects in their Ossmodula, sometimes causing bony outgrowths on their forearms and foreheads (and the former are also reinforced with adamantium and used as extra melee weapons). In addition, this has caused some of them to grow a little bit more even than other Space Marines, making them well over three meters tall. In contrast, their Chaos Marine foes are a warband of, well, somewhat less obviously corrupted people.

Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.

Death of Antagonis, #1 book for making IGhammer-propagators shift uncomfortably.

Not that IG are useless in DoA. Far from it. They play their part. But they have problems facing CSM directly with so few numbers.

**Bobthehero**

2nd best, Warrior of Ultramar is the worst offender

**Ashiraya**

Bobthehero wrote:
2nd best, Warrior of Ultramar is the worst offender

Was a while since I read it and I do not remember anything special in that. What makes it stand out?

Learchus pulled a big truck out of a mud-sink, I remember, but that is pretty standard.

Besides, in Warriors of Ultramar, they did not even fight the Guard. They were on the same side.

**Bobthehero**

Kriegsmen dieing to poison gas ''because they have no protection agaisn't toxins'' I think the author specifically mentions the lack of any protection, so its not the gasmask failing. Nearly stopped reading the book right then.

**Ashiraya**

That's interesting, I'll have to take a look. Fyi, Tyranid toxin is rather corrosive, it is possible that it can just burn through their coats. IIRC 'unprotected' in this context may mean 'outside of a bunker'...

But yes, gonna have to check.

**Tannhauser42**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?

Maybe not what you're looking for, but in the Damnos book, Calgar grabs onto a misfiring Necron Pylon (the big kind), and, by himself, forcefully turns it to fire at the Tesseract Vault.
Yeah, it's Ultramarines and Calgar, so the writer was having a "goo-in-my-pants" moment. Sadly, the writer has another moment like that a little bit later with Sicarius.

**Ashiraya**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?

Maybe not what you're looking for, but in the Damnos book, Calgar grabs onto a misfiring Necron Pylon (the big kind), and, by himself, forcefully turns it to fire at the Tesseract Vault.
Yeah, it's Ultramarines and Calgar, so the writer was having a "goo-in-my-pants" moment. Sadly, the writer has another moment like that a little bit later with Sicarius.

Are you sure it is not one of the significantly smaller Pylons?

**Bobthehero**

Ashiraya wrote:
That's interesting, I'll have to take a look. Fyi, Tyranid toxin is rather corrosive, it is possible that it can just burn through their coats. IIRC 'unprotected' in this context may mean 'outside of a bunker'...

But yes, gonna have to check.[/quote]

That would've been fine, that kind of thing happened during the Siege of Vraks, too. What bothers me is that he makes it sound like the Kriegsmen weren't wearing gasmask, which goes agaisnt their fluff AND is completely slowed in that situation, espically with the fluff in mind.

**BlaxicanX**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.

Ripping tank treads off of a vehicle sounds well within the capabilities of a Space Marine. It's almost as if they're superhuman, or something.

And yet, it's a far-cry from the obvious hyperbole HybridSon is invoking in a none-too-subtle attempt to complain about Astartes plot armor.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?

Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.

One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.

It's almost as if using biased points of views create biased results. Who would've thunk it?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?

Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.

No objective arguments, you said

.
You should ask Ashiraya to give you a sample of the list of quotes from official material that she keeps handy for discussing how freaking awesome and ultra-powerful marines are.
The marine that was stepped on by a titan was a terminator sergeant, iirc. I have not read the actual thing, but apparently he came out of it… shouting orders rather than agonizing. Yeah, it is that bad. Yes, this kind of excessive “superpower” stuff makes marines unpopular to some people. For sure, more toned down marines would be more popular to them.

Ashiraya wrote:
Death of Antagonis, #1 book for making IGhammer-propagators shift uncomfortably.

And BlaxicanX, in this situation

.

BlaxicanX wrote:
And yet, it's a far-cry from the obvious hyperbole HybridSon is invoking in a none-too-subtle attempt to complain about Astartes plot armor.

.
It is not plot armor here. It is power fantasy. The marines are not that good because the plots require it, or because there is no other way they could have survived. They are that good because it makes the author feel strange in his or her pants

.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.

Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither

.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.

Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .

Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side

**Iron_Captain**

The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)