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 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.

The Elysians... who have never won a fluff war?

Largely because they're just screwed over by the incompetence of others. Otherwise they're the American Airborne in speeess.

Although, looking at WWII and what happened to the Airborne quite often, being killed to a man might not be that off.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Lexicanum sez:

"Lucius is a Forge World and is home to the Legio Astorum Titan Legion (AKA the "Warp Runners"). It also is the place of origin of the Macharius-class super-heavy battle tank .The Lucius forges supply weapons and equipment to neighbouring Krieg, for the many Death Korps regiments raised on that planet. Lucius's forge is also well-known for producing the Lucius Pattern Warhound Scout Titan and Lucius Pattern Drop Pod".

I couldn't find that under the name you originally provided, and wasn't going to go wiki-diving. That takes far too long. At any rate, though, it would seem that supplying the DKOK is part and parcel of Lucius' tithe, so that's why "they" keep giving the Death Korps more tanks.

I'm pretty sure the Elysians are a subtle statement on Games Workshop's opinion regarding the Peregrine-esque fantasy of 40K being a gritty, realistic war sim.

"Oh, you want the Imperial Guard to fight like modern, sensible elite soldiers using real-world modern tactics? Alright here ya go, we present the Elysians!

... now watch them get killed to a man over and over again while the World War 1 expy's and Space Marines mindlessly charge their way across open fields to victory.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Elysians are a subtle statement on Games Workshop's opinion regarding the Peregrine-esque fantasy of 40K being a gritty, realistic war sim.

"Oh, you want the Imperial Guard to fight like modern, sensible elite soldiers using real-world modern tactics? Alright here ya go, we present the Elysians!

... now watch them get killed to a man over and over again while the World War 1 expy's and Space Marines mindlessly charge their way across open fields to victory.

They didn't lose because their tactics are lacking. They lose because they got screwed over by their allies.

@Psienesis

To be fair, I did say I misspelled the name.

Where did I mention them losing because of their tactics?

I said they lose because Games Workshop hates them. lol

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Elysians are a subtle statement on Games Workshop's opinion regarding the Peregrine-esque fantasy of 40K being a gritty, realistic war sim.

"Oh, you want the Imperial Guard to fight like modern, sensible elite soldiers using real-world modern tactics? Alright here ya go, we present the Elysians!

... now watch them get killed to a man over and over again while the World War 1 expy's and Space Marines mindlessly charge their way across open fields to victory.

Actually the Cadians are fairly competent as well. Although they bear more similarity to WWII Allied infantry on the west.

They didn't lose because their tactics are lacking. They lose because they got screwed over by their allies.

In most cases, the Elysians don't lose... they just fail to have any survivors. What they do is drop into enemy territory and blow up factories, power supplies, and other critical infrastructure to enable the rest of the military forces present to proceed with the operation. They're often very successful in this... but few, if any, of their troops return to make a second drop.

There highly trained troops, all there planet knows is war, breeding and training to fight. It's tithe is men, only men, but some of the guards best regiments.

Its guardsmen are unbending, and unlike most do not need comisars to keep them advancing under hevey fire.

Cadians, catchans and others are some of the best troops the guard has, a massive step above the penal legions or the conscripts.

 Psienesis wrote:
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

That's not grimdark... That's 2D plot.. Real grimdark would be how half the Krieg conscripts blow they're own heads off because they couldn't take the outloud all night sobbing of the quarter that's still alive but melted from chemical attacks, after the first quarter got killed by the now lynched commisar for not charging into the canons of the nearest tank... Citing - WW1

Seriously the part that annoys me most of Krieg is that there are people and writers who no so little of war and the human condition that they actually think humans can just magically switch off emotions and walk to their death by the thousands cause two or three commissars said so... That's not grimdark.. That's ignorance..

 Psienesis wrote:
Lovecraft isn't grimdark at all. He's gothic dark, and not particularly grim, just fatalistic.

Robert Chambers is grim, but not grimdark.

Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.

You missed the point where it is the Commissars of the DKOK that prevent them from doing such things, which creates what is basically an anvil that the forces of the enemy can throw itself against, time and time again, only to break and scatter when the Death Korps does what the Imperial Guard is supposed to do: Die standing up. Though they may suffer horrendous casualties, they do not break. They do not bend. The Death Korps holds the line.

Cosmicism is the ultimate grimdark. The DKOK can still achieve something. In Lovecraft you're not even a bug like you are in 40K, as a swarm of ants can still achieve something. In Lovecraft you're an amoeba to a life form the size of a sun. There is no reason to exist, all ends in ignoble death. Even the Heroes of Lovecraft, those rare persons who have the guts to question the unknown, die horrible, horrible deaths. Or they're driven insane and doomed to spend the rest of their lives in an asylum as everyone thinks them no more than an insane freak preaching about the apocalypse to never come. Then they commit suicide.

Humans in 40K, even the Death Korps, can still gain notability and [i]mean something. Lovecraft however is Nihilism.

jhe90 wrote:
There highly trained troops, all there planet knows is war, breeding and training to fight. It's tithe is men, only men, but some of the guards best regiments.

Its guardsmen are unbending, and unlike most do not need comisars to keep them advancing under hevey fire.

Cadians, catchans and others are some of the best troops the guard has, a massive step above the penal legions or the conscripts.

All their planet knows is death... As stated in the original post.. Every last Krieger is dead... The only thing left is their name

Expecting a site commissar not to get lynched when it's eat bullets or shoot the Commissar.. I mean he doesn't even have enough ammo to kill a whole squad...

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

That's not grimdark... That's 2D plot.. Real grimdark would be how half the Krieg conscripts blow they're own heads off because they couldn't take the outloud all night sobbing of the quarter that's still alive but melted from chemical attacks, after the first quarter got killed by the now lynched commisar for not charging into the canons of the nearest tank... Citing - WW1

Seriously the part that annoys me most of Krieg is that there are people and writers who no so little of war and the human condition that they actually think humans can just magically switch off emotions and walk to their death by the thousands cause two or three commissars said so... That's not grimdark.. That's ignorance..

True the writes might not know much about true war, but I doubt you do either. "Switching" off emotion is what happens in war.
And the DKoK have Emotion, it's Hate. and the fear of not redeeming themselves in the eyes of the emperor.

Also, in IA12 the DKoK assault brigade has a rule for Tanks with "Special" paint job. it allows a unit to re-roll leadership tests.

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

That's not grimdark... That's 2D plot.. Real grimdark would be how half the Krieg conscripts blow they're own heads off because they couldn't take the outloud all night sobbing of the quarter that's still alive but melted from chemical attacks, after the first quarter got killed by the now lynched commisar for not charging into the canons of the nearest tank... Citing - WW1

Seriously the part that annoys me most of Krieg is that there are people and writers who no so little of war and the human condition that they actually think humans can just magically switch off emotions and walk to their death by the thousands cause two or three commissars said so... That's not grimdark.. That's ignorance..

People can and do switch off emotions as soldiers. For many, it's a survival mechanism. As they say, "it is the hard heart that kills". The Kreigsmen who would blow their own heads off are the ones that don't survive childhood. Guard Basic Training for Kreigsmen begins at birth, and never, ever ends. You still don't seem to grasp the basic function of the Commissars in the Death Korps. He would not need to tell them to make a frontal assault against a line of tanks, he would have to tell them not to! That is the function of the Commissars in the Death Korps... to shape and direct their fanaticism into a strategically and tactically useful form.

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
Expecting a site commissar not to get lynched when it's eat bullets or shoot the Commissar.. I mean he doesn't even have enough ammo to kill a whole squad...

You keep missing the point that martyrdom is the GOAL of every DKoK soldier. They aren't modern soldiers in gas masks, they're religious zealots who march into battle with absolute confidence that an honorable death in service to the Emperor is the key to eternal glory. Are there bullets to eat? Awesome, time to atone for the sins of our fathers and take the enemy with us!

I always got the sense that the DKK lost just as much as they gain through their upbringing. They have no fear but they also have no sense of self preservation. They take high causualties and seem incapable of anyuthing other than meat grinder tactics. They may also be clones and may be affected by the radiation on their homeworld. Their almost to the Imperial guard what the world eaters were to the Legions, dangerous but flawed and broken.

The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.

The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.

The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.

Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.

The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.

Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.

Maybe to you, but there is no true requirement for any of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them.

For you maybe.

For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.

Again...let's look at how the game chooses to open itself to the player/reader.

"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war."

"There is no time for peace. No respite. No forgiveness. There is only war!"

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."

The DKoK would seem to be a pretty spot on army for the game universe it looks like...


The DKoK aren't interesting on a personal level (aside from the myriad of impressive ways they martyr themselves), they're not supposed to be, they're supposed to be interesting as a faction, as the terrible reflection of what the universe has done to mankind in its eternal struggle for survival. The DKoK fight and die to repay their ancestors betrayal of that struggle, willingly sacrifice themselves such as to provide the greatest possible value to the Imperium's war machine without hesitation or regret to atone for the previous betrayal of that struggle.

yah I like the death korps. They look badass, and therefore, kill people in a badass way, sort of.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.

The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.

Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.

Remember, It's your opinion, and your opinion ≠ everyone else.

For some people, Including myself DKoK is the best IG army out there. What some people this is boring others find entertaining. We are all different

 kinratha wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.

The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.

Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.

Remember, It's your opinion, and your opinion ≠ everyone else.

For some people, Including myself DKoK is the best IG army out there. What some people this is boring others find entertaining. We are all different

Except it isn't entertaining, or at least by the definition of the majority. Make a movie off the Death Korps and I almost would garuntee it would get panned across the board for having no tension. With the Korpsmen there is no story, or at least something that could not be written by a young child given that the Death Korps are little more than cardboard cutouts in the shape of people. A story requires a buildup and a climax, something I'm sure your English teacher taught you at some point, there needs to be conflict. With the Korpsmen there is no conflict. There is no buildup. Hell there's nothing really, hence there being no story. The only way the Death Korps become a story is by being a setting, not a character. Commisairs bounce their heads off the near soulless husks that are the Korps, or a city revolts over their emotionless, blind attitude to warfare. Dead Men Walking is a good example of this, DKOK aren't characters. They're just a setting.

And that's all fine. You don't need to relate to them on a personal level to find the faction to be an interesting facet of the game universe.

Dead Men Walking had probably what is my favorite "40k" moment ever, where the Korps is fighting the Necrons and the meltagunners let of a salvo, but don't have enough time to fire again before Necrons reach their positions, and, knowing this, the non-melta equipped DK guardsmen charge the Necrons with bayonets to give them enough time to recharge and fire again without any hesitation or instruction, knowing full well they'll die when their comrade's melta guns recharge and are fired into the Necron's phalanx.

That section just illustrated the 40k universe so perfectly it was beautiful.

The Tyranids aren't relatable either, but that doesn't mean they can't be an interesting and awesome faction either.

 Vaktathi wrote:
And that's all fine. You don't need to relate to them on a personal level to find the faction to be an interesting facet of the game universe.

Dead Men Walking had probably what is my favorite "40k" moment ever, where the Korps is fighting the Necrons and the meltagunners let of a salvo, but don't have enough time to fire again before Necrons reach their positions, and, knowing this, the non-melta equipped DK guardsmen charge the Necrons with bayonets to give them enough time to recharge and fire again without any hesitation or instruction, knowing full well they'll die when their comrade's melta guns recharge and are fired into the Necron's phalanx.

That section just illustrated the 40k universe so perfectly it was beautiful.

The Tyranids aren't relatable either, but that doesn't mean they can't be an interesting and awesome faction either.

I was going to quote that scene from that book, but you beat me to it.

Another scene from Dead Men Walking is when the Commissar and the young Grenadier are talking, the Boy (18 year old) opens up a small amount.. just enough to let the reader see that the DKoK have some emotion.

The DKoK are pretty much the only Imperial Army faction I would ever consider running. The fluff behind them combined with the aesthetic make for a near irresistable. Better than the Space Marines? No. Not in a practical sense. They are not without appeal, however, and no one would be remiss in using them as their faction or writing stories about them.

Cosmicism isn't the only approach to the setting, either. Its one facet of the darkness the makes up 40K. Fatalsim, nihilism, pessimism, false optimism, even legitimate hope; all of these things and more comprise and add to the setting. Reducing it to just one of its parts seems unreasonably limiting.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because the Marines are written for children and the DKoK are written for adults.

Exalted.

 Wyzilla wrote:
In Lovecraft you're not even a bug like you are in 40K, as a swarm of ants can still achieve something.

feth that, I say RAM IT WITH A BOAT! That will do something .

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human.

Is the dehumanization of humanity by a fascist regime not something grimdark ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human.

Is the dehumanization of humanity by a fascist regime not something grimdark ?

Uh, guys?

40k defined grimdark. therefore if it happens in 40k, it is grimdark, even if it's fluffy bunnies and butterflies.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
Expecting a site commissar not to get lynched when it's eat bullets or shoot the Commissar.. I mean he doesn't even have enough ammo to kill a whole squad...

You keep missing the point that martyrdom is the GOAL of every DKoK soldier. They aren't modern soldiers in gas masks, they're religious zealots who march into battle with absolute confidence that an honorable death in service to the Emperor is the key to eternal glory. Are there bullets to eat? Awesome, time to atone for the sins of our fathers and take the enemy with us!

But if it's fanatical Space Marines it's somehow "immersion-breaking" and "dumb, bald, screaming men" and needs to get the feth out of your vision of 40k. Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?

This has been discussed at length within the past week or so.

It's because Imperial Guard fans tend to have penis envy regarding Space Marines. By admission of some of the members on this very board, the amount of fans Space Marines have makes Guard fanboys mad jelly.

As an IG fan myself (Elysians forever m8!), I don't really have a problem with Space Marines. The most popular black library novel before the HH series exploded was Gaunt's Ghosts, which was all about Guardsmen running around with Space Marine level plot-armor doing cool things and soaking up the glory. Between Imperial Armor and the BL I feel that the Guard get more than enough credit for their exploits.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
This has been discussed at length within the past week or so.

It's because Imperial Guard fans tend to have penis envy regarding Space Marines. By admission of some of the members on this very board, the amount of fans Space Marines have makesGuard fanboys mad jelly.

As an IG fan myself (Elysians forever m8!), I don't really have a problem with Space Marines. The most popular black library novel before the HH series exploded was Gaunt's Ghosts, which was all about Guardsmen running around with Space Marine level plot-armor doing cool things and soaking up the glory. Between Imperial Armor and the BL I feel that the Guard get more than enough credit for their exploits.

Actually it's not so much that, his view is that 40k should be far more realistic overall, no nids, no necrons, just modern warfare in a futuristic setting.