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I think what Psienesis meant is that one example of breaking morale does not mean they are all ineffectual and cowardly, which is what BrotherOfBone was trying to say.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Not exactly great siege troops.

Maybe he meant those specific Kriegers weren't great siege troops? Given context either interpretation is valid.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Anyway, about those demonstrably cowardly DKoK. Guess they're obviously leadership 7 for a reason.

LD 7, but they completely ignore morale tests from shooting casualties. So by that standard they're infinitely braver than (most) space marines.

Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and manfighting.

Typical of the Guard.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.

Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.

Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.

Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.

Is that the same reason for why they're WS4 and BS3?

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Anyway, about those demonstrably cowardly DKoK. Guess they're obviously leadership 7 for a reason.

LD 7, but they completely ignore morale tests from shooting casualties. So by that standard they're infinitely braver than (most) space marines.

Marines have ATSKNF, so falling back for them is a tactical withdrawal, they do not rout, which is why they cannot be swept.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.

Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.

Is that the same reason for why they're WS4 and BS3?

Boom, headshot.

Animus wrote:


Marines have ATSKNF, so falling back for them is a tactical withdrawal, they do not rout, which is why they cannot be swept.

Nowhere is a fall back move described as a rout or panicked withdrawal in the rulebook, it states that "sometimes retreat is the only option left to a soldier on the battlefield...of course a retreat is not without its risks" and then later states "just because a unit Falls Back doesn't mean it is out of the fight".

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and manfighting.

Typical of the Guard.

Huh? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not here...

EDIT: It should also be pointed out that their special rules have changed over time. When first introduced in 3E, they were fearless in Close Combat (which was really nice when enemies could consolidate into new combats, you could hold them in place). When FW wrote rules for them, they got similar CC based morale bonuses. Then after 4th edition and moving through 5th and into 6th, they realized that "bonus" was more of a negative than a positive with consolidation into new combats removed, and replaced it with the "don't take morale tests for 25% casualties" rule, which makes them effectively fearless against shooting. They also can always regroup regardless of squad size if close to officers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?

And how are we defining "successful" here?

I'll admit that I'm not an expert on DKoK fluff or anything, but I will note that, 40K canon being up fe interpretation and all, if that one piece of fluff seems out of character to how perceive them as usually acting, then it's fine to disregard it from your own view of the setting.

I mean, I'm unsure about it myself, but just pointing out that the option is there if that piece of fluff isn't to your liking.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.

Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.

Is that the same reason for why they're WS4 and BS3?

Boom, headshot.

I thought you said that game stats were abstractions that didn't reflect the fluff?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?

You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?

You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?

Or how the Death Korps lost an entire planet by fighting the Necrons with horrible, horrible DKOK tactics?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?

You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?

Or how the Death Korps lost an entire planet by fighting the Necrons with horrible, horrible DKOK tactics?

Or how the Ultramarines lost Damnos to the Necrons?

We can go in circles about this but my point is that it's unfair to call the DKoK unsuccessful compared to the Marines. They both do their job adequately and sometimes fail miserably.

I'm talking in universe, of course. I agree that their tactics are outdated. They were outdated in 1940 let alone year 40,000.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?

You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?

Or how the Death Korps lost an entire planet by fighting the Necrons with horrible, horrible DKOK tactics?

Or how the Ultramarines lost Damnos to the Necrons?

We can go in circles about this but my point is that it's unfair to call the DKoK unsuccessful compared to the Marines. They both do their job adequately and sometimes fail miserably.

I'm talking in universe, of course. I agree that their tactics are outdated. They were outdated in 1940 let alone year 40,000.

'
Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.

Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.

That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.

Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.

 Psienesis wrote:

Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.

That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.

Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.

I never knew the Imperial Guard was taking notes from Mr. Brannigan. Explains so much.

 Psienesis wrote:

Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.

That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.

Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.

It's not at all how the Imperial Guard fight, and is largely just a meme started by the 40K community. Cadians, Elysians, Catachans, Tallarn Raiders, Necromundan, Harakoni Warhawks, etc all practice either, modern, WWII, or guerilla tactics that are by no means the slowed idea of throwing a finite source into the meat-grinder like the DKOK.

Also, no. The Guardsmen were actually slowing down the Necrons by use of metalguns and hitting them in the eye-sockets to presumably vaporize their mechanical brains. They were still constantly producing more numbers, but due to the incompetence of the Death Korps, the planet was poorly evacuated and they didn't act fast enough. Rather they treated the Necrons as a conventional foe. Hell at one point I think the idiot commander thought he could and had demoralized them.

Well, the Elysians could drop in, blow something up, get killed to a man... and then have died for no reason at all as whatever they blew up just glows green for a second and reassembles itself.

The Vostroyans could drive some tanks up there, and get blown to hell by the standard rifle carried by all Necron ground forces.

The Cadians could... just kind of stand there with lasguns and get Gaussed to death, as happens every time they encounter the Necrons.

The Catachans could... I'm not really sure. Necrons use all kinds of advanced electronic sensory systems. Hard to hide from something that can see the pheremones in your sweat. So the Catachans could get wiped out to a man in their first encounter with a Lychguard or a Death Ray (Connect the dots, la la la la, connect the dots, it's a death-ray beam!).

The Mordians could look good getting gaussed and heat-rayed and death-rayed and otherwise super-scienced to death.

I mean, I don't want to oversell the Necrons here but, fluff-wise, they're virtually unstoppable, especially if approaching anything like equal concentrations of force. The Necrons are just that powerful.

I never knew the Imperial Guard was taking notes from Mr. Brannigan. Explains so much.

Never fielded Chenkov before?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.

That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.

Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.

It's not at all how the Imperial Guard fight, and is largely just a meme started by the 40K community. Cadians, Elysians, Catachans, Tallarn Raiders, Necromundan, Harakoni Warhawks, etc all practice either, modern, WWII, or guerilla tactics that are by no means the slowed idea of throwing a finite source into the meat-grinder like the DKOK.

Also, no. The Guardsmen were actually slowing down the Necrons by use of metalguns and hitting them in the eye-sockets to presumably vaporize their mechanical brains. They were still constantly producing more numbers, but due to the incompetence of the Death Korps, the planet was poorly evacuated and they didn't act fast enough. Rather they treated the Necrons as a conventional foe. Hell at one point I think the idiot commander thought he could and had demoralized them.

I don't think we read the same book...

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, the Elysians could drop in, blow something up, get killed to a man... and then have died for no reason at all as whatever they blew up just glows green for a second and reassembles itself.

The Vostroyans could drive some tanks up there, and get blown to hell by the standard rifle carried by all Necron ground forces.

The Cadians could... just kind of stand there with lasguns and get Gaussed to death, as happens every time they encounter the Necrons.

The Catachans could... I'm not really sure. Necrons use all kinds of advanced electronic sensory systems. Hard to hide from something that can see the pheremones in your sweat. So the Catachans could get wiped out to a man in their first encounter with a Lychguard or a Death Ray (Connect the dots, la la la la, connect the dots, it's a death-ray beam!).

The Mordians could look good getting gaussed and heat-rayed and death-rayed and otherwise super-scienced to death.

I mean, I don't want to oversell the Necrons here but, fluff-wise, they're virtually unstoppable, especially if approaching anything like equal concentrations of force. The Necrons are just that powerful.

I never knew the Imperial Guard was taking notes from Mr. Brannigan. Explains so much.

Never fielded Chenkov before?

The Necrons in the book weren't nearly as lethal as you suggest. An emotionally dead PDF soldier (who effectively was transformed into a Krieger) managed to infiltrate past the Necrons and get into the Pyramid at the end of the book, their sensors aren't infallible and a force like the Catachans could have certainly infiltrated the area and gotten into the Pyramid, for them that's just another day at the office. Cadians also would have been able to actually fight back the Necron Warrior patrols on the lower levels of the hive worlds given their absurd accuracy in battle, better than the DKOK in fact, who I also recall being able to kill Necron attackers.

The Necrons in the book weren't nearly as lethal as you suggest. An emotionally dead PDF soldier (who effectively was transformed into a Krieger) managed to infiltrate past the Necrons and get into the Pyramid at the end of the book, their sensors aren't infallible and a force like the Catachans could have certainly infiltrated the area and gotten into the Pyramid, for them that's just another day at the office. Cadians also would have been able to actually fight back the Necron Warrior patrols on the lower levels of the hive worlds given their absurd accuracy in battle, better than the DKOK in fact, who I also recall being able to kill Necron attackers.

My Army guy is better at killing X then your Army guy.

An emotionally dead PDF soldier

Oh you mean the Main character? you know, the one with the plot armor?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?

And have contributed far more greatly to far more important battles across the galaxy than the Death Korps, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
And how are we defining "successful" here?

They probably don't fight in as many battles as the Death Korps, but they turn the tide of more important ones.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?

And have contributed far more greatly to far more important battles across the galaxy than the Death Korps, yes.

if you're just looking at Vraks? Sure. Vraks wasn't supposed to be the galaxy's greatest battle, it never pretended to be anything other than one of any uncountable number of small wars the Imperium is always fighting. It also wasn't the only place the DKoK was fighting however. That said, the DA's have been around 10x as long as the DKoK has, 1500 years previous to the current timeline, Krieg was a much different place and its IG regiments were completely different.

Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?

And have contributed far more greatly to far more important battles across the galaxy than the Death Korps, yes.

if you're just looking at Vraks? Sure. Vraks wasn't supposed to be the galaxy's greatest battle, it never pretended to be anything other than one of any uncountable number of small wars the Imperium is always fighting. It also wasn't the only place the DKoK was fighting however. That said, the DA's have been around 10x as long as the DKoK has, 1500 years previous to the current timeline, Krieg was a much different place and its IG regiments were completely different.

Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.

The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.

The Guard always needs more troops that can march aimlessly forward toward guns in rank and file.

Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.

The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.

But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.

 kinratha wrote:

Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.

The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.

But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.

And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.

The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.

But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.

And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.

They succeed in Stalin the Germans though. which gave time for the West to put presser on the Western front.

 kinratha wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.

The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.

But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.

And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.

They succeed in Stalin the Germans though. which gave time for the West to put presser on the Western front.

Death Korps of Krieg, famed for: Siege Warfare, Trench Warfare, Stoicism, Stalling Until Better Forces Come Along
Doesn't say a lot for them does it?

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.

The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.

But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.

And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.

They succeed in Stalin the Germans though. which gave time for the West to put presser on the Western front.

Death Korps of Krieg, famed for: Siege Warfare, Trench Warfare, Stoicism, Stalling Until Better Forces Come Along
Doesn't say a lot for them does it?

That's what the IG does. It stalls the enemy until the Space Marines come along and win the war.