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zephoid wrote:I like people trying to say Banshees are good. Just math hammering it out, 10 banshees lose to 10 marines.

Yes, if you run banshees straight at them out in the open and subject them to a few turns of getting boltered. But NO unit in the eldar codex does that well when you play them like a guard army.

If you play them like eldar, where you compare two tac squads to a squad of banshees in a serpent, and keep them safe from most of the bolter fire and be able to handle the marine squads much more one at a time (the way they're supposed to be used), then they get a whole lot better.

Even if the tac squad gets a turn to double tap, the banshees will still win that engagement.

Banshees are like warp talons and rough riders for a lot of reasons, and one of them is that if you just charge them straight up the field they're going to get killed before they get to do anything. It's easy to make the math show that. It's also why you don't use them that way.

 zephoid wrote:
To show how bad banshees are, GW created Death Cult Assassins and gave them to nearly every single army with the Inquisiton update. 3A, 10 points, 5++ save, possible scoring, power weapon mixing (while banshees get FAQ'd to only swords), cheaper transports, and cheap ablative wounds. Yet nearly no one takes them.

No, banshees are just horrid. I would agree with the general consensus that they are the worst unit in the game.

DCA aren't 10 points each. They'd see a lot more use if they were.

But I'd give the 'worst unit ever' distinction to either Flayed Ones or Mandrakes. Probably Mandrakes. They're literally useless. Banshees at least can wreck face if they hypothetically get into combat. Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

Take 20, Infiltrate them. Chaaarge! If they infiltrate at 12" from the enemy then you're in combat T2 at the latest, if you deploy 18" inches away then you're still in charge range T2. It gives the enemy a maximum of two shooting phases to down 20 T4 4+sv models while also dealing with the rest of your army (they work well with a Veil Cryptek blob for more in-your-face threats) before they're in combat and tearing stuff up with 4A each on the charge. The enemy HAS to kill them all to be safe, so the rest of your army can get around untouched for a turn or two (allowing you to close the range gap that Crons can suffer from)

Taking 2 squads of 15 achieves something similar, but with a greater threat range, more durability and more flexibility.

 Ailaros wrote:

Even if the tac squad gets a turn to double tap, the banshees will still win that engagement.

A single round of double-tapping tac squad shooting will kill 4 banshees and cripple the squad.

Girls are down to 6 models. They'll assault and lose one more on average to overwatch, then kill two marines on the charge. After that, they'll be killing one marine per turn.

Combine that with the fact that they won't be assaulting until turn 3 at the earliest, and you begin to see the problem. They will never kill ANYTHING unless it's already almost dead when they get there, but at that point it's not the Banshees doing the work, its just game physics. A guardsmen squad can tie up a 5 man tactical squad for four turns.

9 banshees + archon with grenades + raider should be better than wyches. If you are bringing DE and Eldar then your opponent has a wraith knight and a couple of wave serpents to deal with instead of the "terrible" banshees. They could in theory and with the proper amount of cover, reach their target and assault with minimal casualties. I just ordered a set of banshees because I think they look cool, might give this a go.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Even if the tac squad gets a turn to double tap, the banshees will still win that engagement.

A single round of double-tapping tac squad shooting will kill 4 banshees and cripple the squad.

Girls are down to 6 models. They'll assault and lose one more on average to overwatch, then kill two marines on the charge. After that, they'll be killing one marine per turn.

Combine that with the fact that they won't be assaulting until turn 3 at the earliest, and you begin to see the problem. They will never kill ANYTHING unless it's already almost dead when they get there, but at that point it's not the Banshees doing the work, its just game physics. A guardsmen squad can tie up a 5 man tactical squad for four turns.

You're assuming a worst-case scenario. If you're sending a fragile assault unit to attack a full strength squad without any covering fire then of course they're going to be in trouble, but that's why you try and take a wound or two off the squad first. Even 2-3 casualties will make the odds a lot more favourable, as will attaching a character for tanking/pleb-whacking duties (an Archon with the 2++ might be nice here). Add in the fact that you should be looking to set up multiple charges (if they shoot the Banshees they don't shoot the Scorpions/Wyches/Warlocks and vice versa) and it should work out a lot better.

Saying that assaulting a naked ten-man tactical squad is the "worst-case scenario" is interesting considering that I do it on a daily basis with my Daemon and CSM lists, using units that are on average cheaper ppm than banshees.

That assaulting something as completely impotent as a ten-man tac squad is considered the "worst case scenario" for Banshees is a reflection of how terrible a unit they really are.

Explain to me why you're spending a minimum of 190 points on a unit that can ONLY kill an enemy unit that's already been neutered by the rest of your army, and can ONLY survive long enough to make it into combat with that crippled unit if you manage to suppress or threat overload your opponent to the point where they can't be bothered to shoot at the banshees a single time?

edit- To clarify, I'm not trying to be a negative nancy and gak on everyones' donuts, here. I don't think it needs saying that Banshees aren't really all that great of a unit- that's why they're being discussed in this thread in the first place. I just want to motivate people to try to think outside of the box. The suggestions put fourth thus far to make the Girls serviceable on the table-top rely too much on obscure situations that any decent opponent is easily going to be able to avoid.

It's a mathematical fact that the Girls are gak against MEQ. The only time they're not gak against MEQ is when they outnumber a MEQ unit by like 100 points' worth of models- but then what unit in the game isn't not gak against MEQ when it's got a 100 point advantage?

So, forget MEQ. What are Banshees actually good at killing in any decent amount of time? Ideas?

Belac Ynnead wrote:

Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

I personally use 15 with an Overlord. The Overlord has MSS, Gauntlet of Flame, Res-Orb and Sempiternal Weave.

Everyone says they stink because they can't deal with TH/SS Termies, or some other dedicated CC unit....... why the feth would you even try? They're a cheap unit that can utterly massacre IG, Guardians, Fire Warriors etc and that's what they're meant to do. As a bonus, most people underestimate them instantly and therefore don't even consider them a threat and don't deal with them until it's too late.

In my games, they Outflank and sometime later on in the game they come on field. First turn on field, I'll move them to cover. At the most they only have to eat a round or two of shooting, and as I said before most people won't even dedicate much shooting at them in the first place. They're actually quite tough with their armour save + cover save + 50% res chance. Then next turn you charge something juicy. Even if you charge something nasty like a Daemon prince etc., the MSS on the lord will interdict it. Also, if you get charged instead, the Lord can overwatch with his Gauntlet.

Out of all the games where I've run this exact build, they've killed more points than they've lost. Sure sometimes it's quite marginal, but they're not the utter catastrophe everyone says they are. Hell, this one game, my opponent say before hand, "Why are you using Flayed Ones? They're gak!"..... later on in the game, he loses a 30 man IG squad complete with heavy weapons and other gubbins to their first charge. After that he focused them, but they survived long enough to get another charge off. Just point them at the right stuff and have fun!

Possessed kind of get gak on but they make really good objective holders and are good to take as allies for Chaos Daemons as they have armour. With Cursed Earth they're pretty decent plus they have objective secured.

If you just take them as humdrums their pretty decent.

Banshees would eat Dark Reapers something fierce. But then what wouldn't? I can't think of much t3 3+ outside of Eldar. Their optimal target is ostensibly MEQ, and they do edge out other options under ideal circumstances, but not by a decent margin, and those circumstances are quite narrow. And other options really kick the snot out of them outside those very narrow conditions.

Bharring wrote:
Banshees would eat Dark Reapers something fierce. But then what wouldn't? I can't think of much t3 3+ outside of Eldar. Their optimal target is ostensibly MEQ, and they do edge out other options under ideal circumstances, but not by a decent margin, and those circumstances are quite narrow. And other options really kick the snot out of them outside those very narrow conditions.

I can see them doing well against Crisis Suits, CSM and other 3+ Sv models without ASTKNF, as they have the potential to sweep them. Also things like Fire Warriors, IG Grenadiers, Cron warriors and other 4+ infantry are probably fair game as well.

Eldar have access to a number of things that cause pinning or blind. If you wanted to use banshees, it might be worth putting some of that in your list to help them get into combat a little safer.

I think the thing to remember with some of these " lesser used " units is that in context of point by in for upgrades it's when purchased in Large Squads w/ multiple upgrades they become worth it.

Take Possessed at a low squad number horribly expensive but when you get into huge squads it becomes pretty worth it.

20 Models of Possessed come out to 600 points with all the fixings, Mark of SLaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Gifts

Comes out to 31 points per model for a unit that has a 3+ save, 5++ invulnerable, and a 5++ Feel No Pain w/ Objective secured if you are playing Crimson Slaughter.

I got 16 genestealers and a broodlord and i'm always left wondering why can't field 16 broodlords and 1 genestealer.

 Desubot wrote:
As much as i love him i can bring my self to bring out CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED as he almost costs a quarter of my points always. amidoingitright?

he pays for himself by replacing voxes army wide, only at high points or if you are me and have a vox in every unit

ashikenshin wrote:I have yet to build my second monolith because I don't know what to make with two.

Stick it on a Tomb Citadel and watch your enemy's mind break.

milkboy wrote:Repentia get mixed reviews.

One way which I use them is as a countercharge unit for backfield defence as I usually leave small units to hold objectives or have Retributors as a firebase. Alternatively, it would be the usual load into a Rhino for forward purposes.

One thing I've wanted to try would be to bubble wrap them with a large sisters unit. Saves them for when the drop pod comes down and unloads marines or when assault troops DS near my main group. Protects them from fire and hopefully they get to blend marines with their 3+ FNP and 6+ invuln saves.

Have you tried mounting them in a Land Raider? Or better, a Spartan Assault Tank? They certainly chew through superheavies and Terminators.

zephoid wrote:I like people trying to say Banshees are good. Just math hammering it out, 10 banshees lose to 10 marines. The T3 and walking speed (battle focus is no more than running for these women) mean that you get slaughtered by even bolters. Once you get in combat banshees only get 2A so are only marginally better than marines and the marines will outnumber them > 2-1.

To show how bad banshees are, GW created Death Cult Assassins and gave them to nearly every single army with the Inquisiton update. 3A, 10 points, 5++ save, possible scoring, power weapon mixing (while banshees get FAQ'd to only swords), cheaper transports, and cheap ablative wounds. Yet nearly no one takes them.

You need to meet more Sisters players.

Otto Weston wrote:

Belac Ynnead wrote:

Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

I personally use 15 with an Overlord. The Overlord has MSS, Gauntlet of Flame, Res-Orb and Sempiternal Weave.

Everyone says they stink because they can't deal with TH/SS Termies, or some other dedicated CC unit....... why the feth would you even try? They're a cheap unit that can utterly massacre IG, Guardians, Fire Warriors etc and that's what they're meant to do. As a bonus, most people underestimate them instantly and therefore don't even consider them a threat and don't deal with them until it's too late.

Sounds like you've had some good luck. Personally, I find that they appear, they get shot, they die. Point for point, Scarabs do their job better.

Rough riders aren't great, but they are cheap. And the first time I fielded mine they took down a haruspex, so that was cool. Ima keep experimenting with them.

Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator. Bane wolf is half as good as a slightly more pricey LRBT. And Devil Dog is inferior to a vanquisher for the same price. I really wish I could make use of their speed, but the equivalent leman Russes boast more than triple the range.

Bullgryns are just a crazy point sink, but they do some damage when they get into combat. I'm pairing them with a biomancy Primaris for combat fun and ld9.

Demolishers...everyone is wrong, demolishers have always been and will continue to be amazing.

 TheSilo wrote:
Rough riders aren't great, but they are cheap. And the first time I fielded mine they took down a haruspex, so that was cool. Ima keep experimenting with them.

Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator. Bane wolf is half as good as a slightly more pricey LRBT. And Devil Dog is inferior to a vanquisher for the same price. I really wish I could make use of their speed, but the equivalent leman Russes boast more than triple the range.

Bullgryns are just a crazy point sink, but they do some damage when they get into combat. I'm pairing them with a biomancy Primaris for combat fun and ld9.

Demolishers...everyone is wrong, demolishers have always been and will continue to be amazing.

Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

Also, Hellhounds have never let me down. Ever.

I want to like Bullgryns, but I can't justify the points, or the models. I really don't want to field an elite squad of Wilfred Brimley's.

Eh, Demolishers never earn their keep for me. Must be a luck thing.

 Frankenberry wrote:

Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

This is very much possible. Worth it? Probably not - A SM character on bike is toughness 5, which is wasted when your RR lowers the average to 3. I know this is about making units work, but that'd be taking a wokring unit and breaking it badly. You also lack access to FnP, which is granted by the command squad you often roll your SM character with.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:


Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

Its entirely possible 10 man unit with 1 power axe, the rest hunting lance with an attached White scars bike chaplain gives you 10 fearless fast move through cover guys that will eat most MEQs for like 240. but the problem being they are still T3 which pretty much kills em.

 Desubot wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:


Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

Its entirely possible 10 man unit with 1 power axe, the rest hunting lance with an attached White scars bike chaplain gives you 10 fearless fast move through cover guys that will eat most MEQs for like 240. but the problem being they are still T3 which pretty much kills em.

But honestly for nearly the same price i could just ally in a squad of GKs with halberts that do exactly the same thing :/
Its why i feel its a bit meh to use psyker crutches as they make anything good.

With no real way to scout them or get them into better positions i dont think they are worth it.

Bike or jump pack SM characters both work (i think jump is slightly cheaper)

at least with chaplain you get rerolls to hit on first strike which is very important i feel. then being fearless is a major bonus i think. + WS CT gives you hit and run IIRC.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Rough riders aren't great, but they are cheap. And the first time I fielded mine they took down a haruspex, so that was cool. Ima keep experimenting with them.

Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator. Bane wolf is half as good as a slightly more pricey LRBT. And Devil Dog is inferior to a vanquisher for the same price. I really wish I could make use of their speed, but the equivalent leman Russes boast more than triple the range.

Bullgryns are just a crazy point sink, but they do some damage when they get into combat. I'm pairing them with a biomancy Primaris for combat fun and ld9.

Demolishers...everyone is wrong, demolishers have always been and will continue to be amazing.

Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

Also, Hellhounds have never let me down. Ever.

I want to like Bullgryns, but I can't justify the points, or the models. I really don't want to field an elite squad of Wilfred Brimley's.

Eh, Demolishers never earn their keep for me. Must be a luck thing.

I always loved hellhounds, especially when they were only 75 points and blew up all the time. But, unlike ogryns which are a middling specialist unit, each hellhound variant is pretty much strictly inferior to their corresponding Leman Russ variant with the 7th ed points reductions. Eradicator has S6 Ap4, ignores cover, large blast at 36" range. Not to mention the vastly improved armor. All for 5 points less than a hellhound. Vanquisher has armorbane at 72" while the Devil Dog only has armorbane at 12" for the same price, and again with much better armor (if you want blast Ap2, sentinels do it better and cheaper). And the Bane Wolf, 8" range versus a LRBT 72" range, for about 20 points.

There's nothing quite like landing a direct hit with a demolisher on a unit of Grey Knight paladins and chapter master. Insta-death a 250+ point unit.

My ogryns regularly perform well by stifling enemy assault units, but it's always a question of whether another Leman Russ could have simply erased that unit from the table on turn 1. Having no assault vehicles also hurts the ogryn case. I'm still trying out straight bullgryns.

For rough riders, as pointed out, you lose a lot of the point taking a biker marine. Can you get jet pack librarians? I really wish I could put a Primaris Psyker, Priest, or a Commissar on a horse. It's relatively easy to hide rough riders behind an obstacle and then to pounce once the enemy gets in range, probably best to give them two flamers to narrow down the overwatch. I take psykers a lot, I'll have to try buffing the riders.

TheSilo wrote:Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator.

You know, it took me awhile to finally come around on this one, but I think their points costs actually make sense between the two of these.

Firstly, look at the firepower. I don't think many people will argue that the eradicator cannon is better than the inferno cannon. Yes, the russ has range, but it's mostly negated by the hellhound's speed (making it so that the inferno cannon will also be in range), and torrent is definitely better than large blast. Displacement against large blasts cuts down to 3 easily, whereas with torrent it's still 4, and that takes some pretty serious shenanigans. And it works better with terrain, especially with how ruins work now.

The vehicle damage chart changed slightly in favor of the hull multimelta over the lascannon as well, and given the hellhound's speed, you're more likely than usual to get into melta range.

This just leaves the fact that the russ can take sponsons, which is a loss (but it's the difference between HS and FA), but, once again it's a bit more complex than that. Russes are uber-slow, which makes their multimeltas a defensive weapon, and their real long range punch is from plasma cannons, which can hurt the tank. This just means that they can take heavy flamers (which will never get used) or heavy bolters (but given that you can buy a stubber with the cost, isn't THAT much of an advantage). As such, the russ is just better, but, in a way, it sort of NEEDS to be in order to make up for mobility problems.

As for survivability, they are both equal in close combat, and they both have mid-range side armor. It's just the front that the russ really shines. Once again, there is some amount of need here, though. Without speed, cover is going to be harder to get, unless you're just parking them behind an aegis, which means they're doing nothing more than sitting and shooting and there are times, especially with new missions, where that's actually somewhat of a liability.

To add to all these little reasons, there's also another small, but important one - the eradicator is sort of a waste of a russ. Once you start getting higher up in points levels, you're going to need to start doubling up russes into squads, and the eradicator pairs well with... nothing. If you had, say, three vanquishers, it's going to be much better to throw points into a hellhound which can run around and do its own thing, rather than getting paired up with an anti-tank weapon, or forcing a pair of vanquishers into a squadron, leaving them vulnerable to overkill and close combat.

In the end, I suppose it's not clear-cut, and it's more a bunch of small things that differentiate them without there being an obvious winner. They both do sort of the same thing for basically the same price, just in a different way.

Which is, you know, how it should be.

Shame about the devil dog, though.

I would argue that an Eradicator pairs quite well with a Punisher. Not that Force Org slots are any sort of limiting factor these days, unless you're looking at tournaments. Steel Host formation, doubled up CADs, a pair of Russes in the HQ slot, etc.

What sets the Hellhound apart, for me, is its status as a Fast vehicle that will always hit what it's shooting at.

But why would a punisher and an eradicator pair well?

I mean, the punisher is going after light infantry out of cover, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of weight of firepower, and light vehicles. The eradicator is going to go after light infantry in cover, and... not a whole lot else.

Not to say that it's not useful to be able to flush light infantry out of cover, of course, but there isn't very much overlap with the punisher outside of possible light infantry outside of cover, but the punisher does that far and away better anyways that you might as well just take another punisher.

So, one that I'd ask about, when talking about alleviating shelf leave: the LRBT?

It went from being pretty good against vehicles in 4th ed, to being somewhat decent in 5th, to being pretty crappy in 6th, to being downright awful in 7th. Meanwhile, LRBTs were never good against monstrous creatures, which you almost never saw in 4th, and now practically every army can spam them in 7th. They've never been good against terminators, and still aren't, and they went from a respectable light infantry killer to a horrid one once the main gun caused them to snap fire the rest, and once they added in credible alternatives like eradicators, exterminators, and punishers. And then made those tanks all cheaper than a regular russ.

I mean, seriously. Why would you ever take one of these nowadays?

I love the Hellhound to death, it's one of my favorite units in the codex. But god damn is it inefficient compared to the Eradicator. I mean, say what you want about the reliability of flamer templates versus blast weapons, the fact of the matter is that all it takes is a single unit to get into assault with a HH and it's a goner. The same is true of any Russ, but the Eradicator is rocking a 36'' range gun versus an 18'' one. The Hellhound can get off a shot turn 1, but it better kill everything within 18'' of it or else its toast. In a match I played against my bud's Mech IG a few weeks ago, he put an entire HH squad up the board turn 1 and roasted my Khorne lord and his ten man squad of beserkers. He killed eight of the beserkers, then on my turn 1 I assaulted the squadron and wiped the whole thing out with just the Lord's AoBF attacks, before the beserkers could even swing. The rules for assaulting non-walkers is just too punishing on short-ranged vehicles.

I really think a major mechanic that needs to be implemented in 40K is that all vehicles should be able to move-shoot-move. So like, the average vehicle can have 12'' of movement that can be allocated throughout your movement and run phase. They can move 12'' in the movement phase and not move at all in the run face, or 0'' in the movement phase and 12'' in the run phase. 6'' and 6'', or 5'' and 7'', whatever- and they shoot in between phases. Vehicles that have "fast" can have 18'' to allocate. To prevent "pop-tarting", a rule called "momentum" would exist, which allows a vehicle to move in any direction in the movement phase, but prevents it from moving in the opposite direction in the run phase. So a Leman Russ couldn't move forward in the movement phase than back up in the run phase, or vice versa. This prevents the encouragement of gun-lining by having vehicles pop out from behind Los-blocking terrain, taking a shot than moving back behind terrain.

Skimmers would not have the momentum rule, emphasizing their incredible maneuverability.

The overall goal of the mechanic would be to allow vehicles to fire their weapons and at least have a chance of escaping melee. With a hellhound I could move up 12'', fire its weapon at a squad, than move 6'' to the left, potentially putting it out of charge range of most standard infantry and MC's- in a sense doing a "drive-by". This would still allow most fast units like jump/jet infantry to catch it though, which is a good thing.

- - - -

Anyway... wish-listing aside. I think the Hellhound and its variants are best used as defensive weapons. I've used them in the past to run interference on any units gunning for my leman russes or other vital squads. They're a decent reactionary unit. They can also be good for psych'ing out my opponents. When deploying first, I've often put down a squadron of them, looked at one of my opponent's units, then gave him a knowing glance like "yeah, ur gonna get it m8".

And then I watch him swallow and put that unit in the opposite corner of his deployment zone from my hellhounds... well out of range where it could do the most damage to my forces.

 Ailaros wrote:
But why would a punisher and an eradicator pair well?

I mean, the punisher is going after light infantry out of cover, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of weight of firepower, and light vehicles. The eradicator is going to go after light infantry in cover, and... not a whole lot else.

Not to say that it's not useful to be able to flush light infantry out of cover, of course, but there isn't very much overlap with the punisher outside of possible light infantry outside of cover, but the punisher does that far and away better anyways that you might as well just take another punisher.

At Str6, I'm not shooting a Punisher at Light armor unless it's AV 10. Glancing on 5's or worse does not a target make, in my mind. There are other Russes better suited to the task. MCs I can see, to a degree, but with most of those rocking T6 I'd much rather shoot them with an Exterminator, Vanquisher, or Executioner given the option of tanks. Hitting and wounding on 4's is... eh.

Both, however, love to shoot infantry. I've had entire tac squads cleaned up from an Eradicator volley, rocking hull HB and HB sponsons. Not the average to occur, I'll grant, but weight of wounds is what it is. And paired together there's no safety to be had. If you crouch in cover, the Eradicator kills you. Advance, and the Punisher... well, punishes you.

The Punisher is strength 5.

And it's actually pretty reliable at murdering vehicles from AV10 to AV11. Knocking off 3 hp's on average from AV10 and 2 on average from AV11.

And that's not even considering when you put Pask in it.

Pask in a punisher will reliably kill anything AV12 and under, and will knock 2 HP's off an AV13 vehicle and 1HP off an AV14 vehicle.

Even a Punisher that's not Pask, but simply in his unit, will take off ~3 HP's from AV12.

Those are all better results than if you were using a Vanquisher.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Punisher is strength 5.

And it's actually pretty reliable at murdering vehicles from AV10 to AV11. Knocking off 3 hp's on average from AV10 and 2 on average from AV11.

And that's not even considering when you put Pask in it.

Pask in a punisher will reliably kill anything AV12 and under, and will knock 2 HP's off an AV13 vehicle and 1HP off an AV14 vehicle.

Even a Punisher that's not Pask, but simply in his unit, will take off ~3 HP's from AV12.

Those are all better results than if you were using a Vanquisher.

My mistake, I overestimated it's damage.

And Pask in Punisher is a completely different animal.

Better results they may be while looking at sheer HP stripping power, but a Vanquisher can one-shot a vehicle. A Punisher distinctly lacks this capacity. Not to mention how grossly a Vanquisher outranges a Punisher. But the kicker is - that wasn't even the tank I'd suggest for stripping low AV. Exterminators would be my pick of the litter for that duty.