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BlaxicanX wrote:he put an entire HH squad up the board turn 1 and roasted my Khorne lord and his ten man squad of beserkers. He killed eight of the beserkers, then on my turn 1 I assaulted the squadron and wiped the whole thing out with just the Lord's AoBF attacks, before the beserkers could even swing.

To be fair, this is an exceptionally bad matchup for hellhounds.

Yes, they're more vulnerable to assault by slow-moving footsloggers with blistering numbers of high-S attacks in close combat, but there aren't very many of those you're going to see most of the time. More often, you're going to come up against shooters, or fast CC threats against which the hellhound isn't THAT much more vulnerable than a russ.

BlaxicanX wrote:I really think a major mechanic that needs to be implemented in 40K is that all vehicles should be able to move-shoot-move.

Ugh, MSM is the worst mechanic in the entire game, please don't add it to anything else.

Because what we need is hellhounds that can jump out from behind a wall, fire its inferno cannon, and then disappear out of line of sight, being immune to shooting and close combat the next turn...

BlaxicanX wrote:They can also be good for psych'ing out my opponents.

That's certainly true.

In a way, an eradicator is just another russ. It can be handled like another russ. A hellhound has the potential for far, far more horrific damage if you're not SUPER careful with deployment, which means yeah, they do tend to get rather a great deal of attention. Particularly useful in a mech list, given that they saturate with artillery and, more importantly, chimeras.

obsidiankatana wrote:At Str6, I'm not shooting a Punisher at Light armor unless it's AV 10. Glancing on 5's or worse does not a target make, in my mind.

Against AV10, you get 10 hits for 3.3 hull points stripped - or a dead vehicle, or two, actually, given that many of them are only Hp2. Throw in heavy bolters and it gets even moreso. Even against AV11, though, assuming the heavy bolters, that's 2.5 hull points, or, in other words, a dead vehicle.

Punishers have the weight of fire to reliably handle both AV10 and AV11, and there's plenty of that to be found. Meanwhile, the eradicator is mostly hopeless against that target type, being only one shot and not ordnance.

Yes, a vanquisher is going to be better at anti-tank than a punisher, but that doesn't mean that an eradicator has the same target types as one.

 Ailaros wrote:

Against AV10, you get 10 hits for 3.3 hull points stripped - or a dead vehicle, or two, actually, given that many of them are only Hp2. Throw in heavy bolters and it gets even moreso. Even against AV11, though, assuming the heavy bolters, that's 2.5 hull points, or, in other words, a dead vehicle.

Punishers have the weight of fire to reliably handle both AV10 and AV11, and there's plenty of that to be found. Meanwhile, the eradicator is mostly hopeless against that target type, being only one shot and not ordnance.

Yes, a vanquisher is going to be better at anti-tank than a punisher, but that doesn't mean that an eradicator has the same target types as one.

Bit of restatement from the other gent I responded to, since these posts fired off relatively close to each other.

Most AV10-11 vehicles that spring to mind are HP3, but then I don't face many Sentinels or Warwalkers. I do face Rhinos, Chimeras, Raiders, and the like. So a Punisher may kill any of the above in a volley (may, because Chimeras don't often present side, and Raiders rock jink and/or flickerfield). But that same weight of fire that may squish a transport will also sweep up squads of infantry whole-sale. It's easier to wound them than to put damage on a vehicle, and easier to catch them than a vehicle (lumbering behemoth and a 24'' gun being what it is).

Now I'm not saying that it's bad at killing AV 10/11. Numbers speak for themselves. But I'm saying that it's equally adept, if not more so, at killing infantry. Which Eradicators also love to shoot at. Not that an Eradicator rocking triple heavy bolters isn't going to do anything to AV10/11, because it will.


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And again, for low AV HP stripping, I suggest the Exterminator. Not the Vanquisher.

 Ailaros wrote:

Ugh, MSM is the worst mechanic in the entire game, please don't add it to anything else.

Because what we need is hellhounds that can jump out from behind a wall, fire its inferno cannon, and then disappear out of line of sight, being immune to shooting and close combat the next turn...

Did you actually read my post dude?

Because I SPECIFICALLY addressed this EXACT sentiment, like three lines later...

 obsidiankatana wrote:

My mistake, I overestimated it's damage.

And Pask in Punisher is a completely different animal.

Better results they may be while looking at sheer HP stripping power, but a Vanquisher can one-shot a vehicle. A Punisher distinctly lacks this capacity. Not to mention how grossly a Vanquisher outranges a Punisher. But the kicker is - that wasn't even the tank I'd suggest for stripping low AV. Exterminators would be my pick of the litter for that duty.

That's a fair point about exploding, but honestly... I think that in 7th edition if you're *trying* to explode any vehicle rather than going for its hull-points, you're setting yourself up for failure. Against any vehicle that's not open topped, it's only getting the explodes result on a 6... a 17% chance. On open-topped vehicles it's causing an explodes on a 5+, a 33% chance.

if we were to take a Pask-Vanquisher and use it as an example, once you factor in the to-hit rolls and pen chance, the tank is maxing out at a 38% chance to one-shot an open -topped AV10 vehicle. That chance drops down to 25% against standard AV10, and then drops rapidly, bottoming out at a 15% chance against AV14.

So a Vanquisher has a *chance* to one-shot any vehicle in the game, something the Punisher can't claim. But it's going to struggle to explode any vehicle in the game as well.

Sentinels, warwalkers, vypers, venoms, warbuggies, killa kanz, piranhas, land speeders, and stormtalons all have Hp2, and can usually come in squads, which means a single punisher can reliably kill two simultaneously in a single volley. And, of course, things with Hp3 they can handle plenty well, also.

The strange thing is that the punisher is actually the best weapon against AV10. Due to rate of fire, it's better than a vanquisher and even an exterminator. The same is even true for AV11 as well, as shocking as that sounds.

It's the best russ for handling light vehicles, which makes pairing it with a eradicator almost as bad as pairing an eradicator with a vanquisher in that regard.

Meanwhile, the punisher will certainly hose down light infantry in the open, but if they're in the open, then they're probably displaced, which means that the eradicator is out of its element. Meanwhile, the eradicator will do a pretty good job with infantry in cover (especially with those pesky 2+ cover saves that several of them can get), while a punisher will struggle pretty badly here. A punisher may be good against terminators, but that's because killing 3 models out of a 5 man termie squad is a pretty big deal. Killing 3 models out of a 10-man scout squad, on the other hand, sort of isn't.

So even against the one unit type they overlap with, they still don't overlap ALL that well. Meanwhile, there is an awful lot of divergence. It doesn't make sense to dwell on one data point and ignore all the rest. The two don't really pair ALL that well.

Also, I bet it was missed because I put it in an edit to a previous post, but what about the LRBT?

BlaxicanX wrote:Because I SPECIFICALLY addressed this EXACT sentiment, like three lines later...

Not well.

So the tank dashes between two pieces of tall terrain instead of back and forth between the same one. The end effect is the same.

"Plus, 'back in the same direction' is going to be a clunky mechanic that would be argued over about as much as the direction of the arrow on the scatter die, I'd think.

Part of my reasoning for the pairing was because they both enjoy shooting infantry, but at different times. Their combination means you can't hide in cover and can't safely advance. What ever you happen to be facing primarily dictates which tank sits in front for the squadron. I will grant the benefits of the punisher against Av10 2hp, but my perspective here is likely skewed by local meta. Of your listed units I see exactly two, and infrequently at that. It may be numerically superior to other tanks against Av11 3hp, I haven't run those numbers since I'm turning in here for the night. What you see as a divergence in rolls though, I see as flexibility in target selection. Eradicators, especially with 3 HBs, aren't terrible vs AP 10/11. Punishers are good at killing infantry. The only divergence I really see are the extremes of 2+ cover and MCs.

As for LRBTs? Unsure if you mean to find uses or to pair with eradicators. Single blast templates with no supporting fire and BS3 don't impress me. Steel host gives them some kick with preferred enemy for the former. I think they're a bad match for eradicators, simply because of the AP difference between the shots and how valuable cover and spread is against a LRBT, while spread also helps vs eradicators.

Okay, well, I'm not going to get into it too much in this thread. It's off-topic and we all know how you feel about JSJ, so.

 Ailaros wrote:
But why would a punisher and an eradicator pair well?

I mean, the punisher is going after light infantry out of cover, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of weight of firepower, and light vehicles. The eradicator is going to go after light infantry in cover, and... not a whole lot else.

Not to say that it's not useful to be able to flush light infantry out of cover, of course, but there isn't very much overlap with the punisher outside of possible light infantry outside of cover, but the punisher does that far and away better anyways that you might as well just take another punisher.

So, one that I'd ask about, when talking about alleviating shelf leave: the LRBT?

It went from being pretty good against vehicles in 4th ed, to being somewhat decent in 5th, to being pretty crappy in 6th, to being downright awful in 7th. Meanwhile, LRBTs were never good against monstrous creatures, which you almost never saw in 4th, and now practically every army can spam them in 7th. They've never been good against terminators, and still aren't, and they went from a respectable light infantry killer to a horrid one once the main gun caused them to snap fire the rest, and once they added in credible alternatives like eradicators, exterminators, and punishers. And then made those tanks all cheaper than a regular russ.

I mean, seriously. Why would you ever take one of these nowadays?

On the issue of move, shoot, move. The easiest fix is to let vehicles flat out in the assault phase, moving only straight forward (from whatever their alignment was in the shooting phase). So you could retreat, but that means putting your rear armor towards the enemy. But this could allow for nifty drive bys or L maneuvers without disrupting the game too much. And most vehicles only flat out 6" anyway.

On the hellhound issue, AV 14/13/10 is so much better than 12/12/10. And even a long range torrent will put you in assault range from most assault units, and crew shaken makes you unable to fire your flame cannon. I still use the hellhound variants occasionally in pick up games. I don't know how to fix it, maybe give it transport capacity 6, so I can squeeze special weapons squads in there or something.

I prefer the eradicator over the punisher because it is 20 points cheaper, less reliant on BS, and has Ap4. It is so deadly against Tau, Orks, Guard, and Necrons. Ap - on the punisher is what kills it for me, and it only wounds Orks/Marines on 3+. Pask in a punisher, from what I've heard, is incredible, but you are paying 210 points for that. And I have a thing about spending more than 200 points on a model.

But none of those things have to do with the Make a Unit Work thread. So, Leman Russ Battle Tank. It is still a glorious choice, mostly because Space Marine players seem to be allergic to cover. The key is the S8, which will insta-death Tyranid warriors, venomthropes, zoanthropes, kill Necron immortals, and insta-death most characters in the game. The problem is that my demolisher can reliably do all these things (albeit at much shorter range). I'm beholden to the LRBT, cause back in 3rd edition we didn't have eradicators, and the exterminator cost $20 more. Really it is only worthwhile against Marines, Eldar, and Tyranids, however that's like 50% of the players out there.

The LRBT was decent against Eldar bikes before they got a 4+ jink, but that's still better than a 3+ fortune re-roll that they'd have otherwise. It was also a great anti-vehicle squadron choice, able to hit multiple vehicles, but the 7th ed change to the damage chart put an end to that. Combined with the points reduction in 5 of the other 6 LR variants, the LRBT is a tough sell. While it'll theoretically insta-death lots of things, the big MCs will have T5 or better and marines will put their characters in 2+ armor. For 5 more points you can get an executioner with 3x S7 Ap2, which'll probably get the job done better and will put more wounds on MCs (it also has 11 rear armor vs the LRBT 10).

There are lots of little moments where you will be happy taking a LRBT, when it insta-kills a unit of 'Nid warriors, or wipes out a marine assault squad, or catches some Chaos Marines or aspect warriors in the open. I'd say its primary attribute is that it will make your enemy hug cover, disrupting his game plan. But then again, a basilisk will do the same job for 25 points less.


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 Ailaros wrote:
Sentinels, warwalkers, vypers, venoms, warbuggies, killa kanz, piranhas, land speeders, and stormtalons all have Hp2, and can usually come in squads, which means a single punisher can reliably kill two simultaneously in a single volley. And, of course, things with Hp3 they can handle plenty well, also.

The strange thing is that the punisher is actually the best weapon against AV10. Due to rate of fire, it's better than a vanquisher and even an exterminator. The same is even true for AV11 as well, as shocking as that sounds.

It's the best russ for handling light vehicles, which makes pairing it with a eradicator almost as bad as pairing an eradicator with a vanquisher in that regard.

Meanwhile, the punisher will certainly hose down light infantry in the open, but if they're in the open, then they're probably displaced, which means that the eradicator is out of its element. Meanwhile, the eradicator will do a pretty good job with infantry in cover (especially with those pesky 2+ cover saves that several of them can get), while a punisher will struggle pretty badly here. A punisher may be good against terminators, but that's because killing 3 models out of a 5 man termie squad is a pretty big deal. Killing 3 models out of a 10-man scout squad, on the other hand, sort of isn't.

So even against the one unit type they overlap with, they still don't overlap ALL that well. Meanwhile, there is an awful lot of divergence. It doesn't make sense to dwell on one data point and ignore all the rest. The two don't really pair ALL that well.

Also, I bet it was missed because I put it in an edit to a previous post, but what about the LRBT?

BlaxicanX wrote:Because I SPECIFICALLY addressed this EXACT sentiment, like three lines later...

Not well.

So the tank dashes between two pieces of tall terrain instead of back and forth between the same one. The end effect is the same.

"Plus, 'back in the same direction' is going to be a clunky mechanic that would be argued over about as much as the direction of the arrow on the scatter die, I'd think.

The problem is that most of those vehicle squads are fast, and it's futile to chase them down with a 6" move 24" punisher. The executioner and exterminator have better range and S for hunting light vehicles.

When firing against T3 Sv4+ infantry in the open, the punisher is going to hit 10 times, 8.3 wounds, 4.2 kills. So unless the eradicator is hitting fewer than 5 guys, the eradicator will do the job better (even more so against T4), and with 36" range the eradicator will have a much better selection of targets than the punisher, all for 20 fewer points. Outside of a tank commander, I don't see the appeal of the punisher.

Well, the problem with the LRBT is that its damage profile is nearly the same as an eradicator, except the eradicator is way cheaper and ignores cover.

One of the things to remember with the IDing thing is that any other russ (save the demolisher) can take a lascannon and multimeltas and also ID things, and they're not stuck snap-firing if you shoot the main gun.

Furthermore, things you kill with ID you kill by conventional means as well. Tyranid warriors are a great example of this actually. If you hit a squad of three (which is half the time), you have a half chance again of wiping the squad in one hit. That's not that great. Realistically we're looking at at least three shots to pull it off, assuming they don't have cover (which they at least somewhat likely would against a battlecannon). Meanwhile, over those same 3 turns a punisher puts down 12 wounds on that warrior squad. Indeed, they're likely to end the warriors in just 2 turns, and much more consistently than a single scatter die rolling a few times.

The punisher is just better against something that's pretty much served up for the LRBT to be good against. And that's not even giving the punisher the heavy bolter sponsons which would really chew those warriors up, and still have them cost the same price. The only way this is really going to work is against large squads of stuff that is either T3 or 4 and also has multiple wounds on each model, and that don't naturally gravitate towards cover or have a 2+ save. Units such as...

I'm really trying to find something, but battlecannons are just so bad.

I guess you just sort of have to look at what it has that makes it different. It does have a long range, true, but so does a vanquisher, and, honestly, the 48" threat range of the exterminator is scarcely ever going to be without targets. I mean, even the 42" threat range of an eradicator or executioner will usually be good enough if you don't place it in the very corners of the board. The benefit here, then, is pretty marginal over everything but the punisher or demolisher.

Meanwhile, it is Ap3, but that makes it just an HP stripper against vehicles, which puts it up against the punisher, exterminator, and vanquisher against vehicles. Meanwhile, against infantry you've got to compare it against the punisher (weight of fire) and the demolisher and the executioner (both Ap2).

I feel like S8 ordnance isn't good enough against vehicles with its Ap for only being heavy 1. A heavy 2 battlecannon that had some amount of RoF to stand up against the other anti-tank and anti-MC russes, then maybe, but not as-is, especially if it's stuck snap-firing hull weapons. Meanwhile, I do actually respect Ap3 against infantry, but when you could have a tank for much cheaper that's Ap4 ignores cover, or is going to kill more marines thanks to weight of fire...

It's just that whenever you compare it, the LRBT is always a third class weapon. This might be somewhat excusable if it were the versatile choice in a world full of specialists, but this isn't true when everything else can take great hull weapons, and when there are tanks that beat the LRBT in several categories simultaneously.

I mean, I guess the one possible redeeming quality of it being both ordnance and large blast is that it could, in theory, strip multiple HP from vehicles simultaneously. Yes, basilisks and manticores both do this much better, but at least the russ is tougher than those things... when the artillery isn't completely out of LOS. Even here, though, without ignoring cover...

And as for the idea of giving vehicles MSM, I'll only be interested when you come up with a way of doing it that doesn't make mech gunlines even more powerful than they already are. Wave serpent lists don't need to be able to gunline any better than they already can, thank you very much.

I'm not going to be that guy who asks how do we get mandrakes to work. BUT I will be that guy who asks if there is anyway to make their HQ version, Kheradruakh, be at all useful? Besides taking away a decent amount of shooting from you main force.

 MurderCarnival wrote:
I'm not going to be that guy who asks how do we get mandrakes to work. BUT I will be that guy who asks if there is anyway to make their HQ version, Kheradruakh, be at all useful? Besides taking away a decent amount of shooting from you main force.

With Dark Eldar you gotta share the pain. Put them with a haemonculous for fnp.

You guys think a "crusher-star" could be viable? Take 9 Blood Crushers for 405 points, upgrade one to the Blood Hunter and take an etherblade for 25 points, that gives the unit 40 strength 6AP3 attacks and 6 strength 6 AP2 attacks on the charge at WS5.

Attach a Juggerherald and take the grimoire and an etherblade for 140 points. That'll give them a 3++ which will handle most of their durability problems.

So for 535 points, you've got 40 Strength 6 AP3 attacks, 12 strength 6 AP2 attacks and strength 5 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge. They've also got 30 T4 3++ wounds on a 12'' chassis.

At 1500 points, that gives you ~1000 points to fill in with troops and other goodies. If you want the Grimoire to be a sure thing, take Fateweaver and that still leaves you 700 points for cheap Daemon troops. You can also throw in a portalglyph somewhere if you're hurting for more bodies.

- - - -

A far easier alternative to Fateweaver and the Grimoire would be to simply take Belakor and have him spam invisibility. Considering you'll only have ~7 warp-charges per round unless you take lots of Horrors, though, he won't have enough juice to use a whole lot of other powers. So you're essentially paying 350 points for invisibility.

Well it comes down to the whole Invisibility makes everything viable.

And them being a boat load of ap3 hits is nice however its a unit that can easily be locked with a Walker with av 12-13 front will lock em forever. so that's something to worry about.

That's a fair point, and I think that you could say that about most units. Screamerstar or Khornedogs are helpless against an AV13 walker.

But when you have a 12'' move, you should be able to avoid most of those threats pretty decently.

Though if it came down to it, you could always purchase a greater etherblade instead. That bumps the herald and blood hunter up to strength 7 on the charge.

Arnt screamers those crazy armorbane melta dudes? I think they got nerfed but they can still deal with it i think

Dogs for sure sucks to get av13nd its also why i love divination over telepathy, it gives you a chance at misfortune so they CAN deal with em.

I want to believe that Bloodcrushers can be made to do work. You have the right idea of it - they hit hard and crush most things into paste no problem, but they need the durability to cross the board with some fight left in them.

To come back with the HH vs Eradicator debate, the only flaw the eradicator has is that is is a large blast; which is sure it'll scatter horribly when you need it to hit straight.

HH is at it's best as a big counter assault unit, OR with Warlord trait #1 (D3 outflanking) to have them outflank and get both line breaker and burn back field units (which is usually either weak, long range weaponry or weak infantry unti taken only to hold back field objective)

Id have to lean in with the Eradicator as it IDs T3 models (which is kinda important with people running nurglings/ various heralds lately as well right off the bat you will generally be in range to hit basically anything.

the HH speed and range can be completely countered by counter deploying, and with the loss of consistent TACTICAL GENIUS its really tough to depend on outflank.

The thing basically Must survive a turn without getting a single pen, otherwise its ether dead or 100% useless.

 Desubot wrote:

The thing basically Must survive a turn without getting a single pen, otherwise its ether dead or 100% useless.

If you have more than 1 Hellhound, and more vehicles that aren't Hellhounds, it's pretty likely they will not take penetrating hits on turn 1.

Maybe keeping the hellhound in reserve is the answer, target anti armor on turn 1, and then bring in the hellhound for counter attack.

 TheSilo wrote:
Maybe keeping the hellhound in reserve is the answer, target anti armor on turn 1, and then bring in the hellhound for counter attack.

Or you highland charge them. NASGuard was one of my favorite ways to play. The whole, "hey, nice deployment zone, mind if I borrow it?" strategy.

Desubot wrote:Eradicator as it IDs T3 models

So does an inferno cannon.

BlaxicanX wrote:So for 535 points, you've got 40 Strength 6 AP3 attacks, 12 strength 6 AP2 attacks and strength 5 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge. They've also got 30 T4 3++ wounds on a 12'' chassis.

Ick. I mean, expensive, but still, something is getting horribly destroyed every turn. You can ALMOST make your points back by killing nothing but guard platoons, I'd hate to see what happens when you charge something more expensive than chaff.

As for mandrakes, I'll link to this.

On the Hellhound debate, it's worth it mainy because it's a fast tank, IMO. My Hellhounds tend to survive pretty well, because they are usually either well-supported by massed infantry (the two units giving each other mutual support), or being protected by big brother Russes. I must admit I rarely run the Hellhounds up in the open. They tend to sneak up the flanks under cover. At that stage of the game I would also have around 70 infantry rushing forwards up one flank or another, while 2 LRBT and 2 other Russes (Executioner, Exterminator), and another platoon hurl massed firepower into the enemy to support the advance. A Vendetta would join them in the carnage. Also, the Hellhound is the only tank I have in the armory that can keep up with the infantry rush (because the infantry would move, move, move in early game). Lastly, I guess it's a sentimental thing. My Hellhounds are the old ones with the metal bits

Reading this thread though, I must admit that among the toughest to use without resorting to Battle Brothers allies are the Harlequins. On the upside, you always have the option to save the points on the Shadowseer (I would save all my Deny dice to deny that power), but you would probably need Invisibity to get these guys into combat. They would still be awesome in a dense Cityfight though (except perhaps against Tau), which is kinda fluffy - sort of.

 Ailaros wrote:

Desubot wrote:Eradicator as it IDs T3 models

So does an inferno cannon.

Bah was thinking it was just a heavy flamer :/ didn't realize it was an inferno

 Ailaros wrote:


As for mandrakes, I'll link to this.

That's a really in depth analysis and I like it. I think if you get them a haemonculous they get fnp and baleblast, frankly they'll be way more effective than wyches. I'll try it out.

But both of those units are inferior to beast packs. Kymarae have a 4+ invul and more attacks. And wracks are cheaper than mandrakes anyway.