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Dark Angels Veterans... expensive, and they don't even seem to *have* one trick, besides getting more expensive when you give them decent weaponry. At best you can make them a bit like Chaos Terminators only more expensive and not as good.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Dark Angels Veterans... expensive, and they don't even seem to *have* one trick, besides getting more expensive when you give them decent weaponry. At best you can make them a bit like Chaos Terminators only more expensive and not as good.

I'd run them like mini-Sternguard in a Deathwing list, loading them up on combi-plasma/melta and Drop Pod them in, with your focus being on taking out the primary sources of AP2 or 1 in the enemy army. Their one job is to deal with the threats to the Deathwing and contribute to the alpha-strike of the army, leaving the Terminators free to engage softer targets. It can take a little pressure of the Terminators to kill the threats to them on the drop.

If they survive, charge the nearest unit. To this end, I'd take BP/CCW on everyone without a combi.

Yeah, the drop pod approach is definitely viable, but they're *so* expensive.

My problem with them is that though they don't compete in role with the drop podding flamer-wielding assault marines, they do compete for drop pods.

5-man assault squad + drop pod + 2 flamers + combi-flamer = 105 pts.

5-man vet squad + drop pod + 2 combi-meltas + melta = 155 pts!

I guess if I owned 3 drop pods, though, one of each plus a Venerable Dread with multimelta and heavy flamer could add a nice bit of pressure to a Deathwing drop list.

 azreal13 wrote:
Bloodcrushers.

With their drop in toughness and loss of 3+ from the last book, many, including myself, class them as way too fragile for their points. We are right, no doubt about that, but..

They hit like a brick in a sock, and they're quick as hell.

I've identified my main issue is only running three in a unit (with Herald) which means that they're way too easy to focus down.

My fix would be to run a bigger unit (I have another 3 buried deep in the production line,) include something like the Grimoire with the idea to specifically increase their survivability, and use the icon so they can get one decent length charge in per game guaranteed.

I may also consider supporting them with a skull cannon, to allow them to charge into units in cover without penalty.

Have you considered playing them in tandem with Be'lakor? Invisibility on such a unit would surely improve upon their toughness. Add in one or two Soulgrinders as your second wave? I don't play Daemons (or CSM) but they're popular around here and I learned a lot about what works for either of them that way.


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 Mr Morden wrote:
Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

MSU threat-overload would work. Venoms all over the place, 3 squads of 5 Howling Banshees with Executioner Exarch...it'd take some planning, but they could definitely work. Lots of turbo-boosting Venoms with CC squads inside is a very fun, very aggresive tactic that makes your opponent sweat. Probably wouldn't work on a competitive level, but is it good enough? I'd say so.

10 Chosen assaulting out of a Land Raider, or 20 Chosen assaulting out of a Spartan Assault Tank. This is like what Berzerkers used to be.

I desperately want Necron Destroyers to be good, but... that price tag.

Oh well, at least Tomb Blades are seeing a bit more play, now.

Ok, here's something I've been wondering - What are the advantages of Sternguard vs Command Squads for drop pod lists? Or does this not come up because everyone runs command squads on bikes?

I've been thinking about starting a small marine force, and as I look at drop pod options it seems like I can either get 5 sternguard with combi-meltas in a pod for 205, or I can get 5 command vets all with melta guns in a pod for only 185.

What do people generally take? I mean, both units are suicide squads, so why not go with the cheaper option? Also, if they do survive the Command squad still seems like the better option. One shot meltas and then special ammunition after that? No thanks, I'd rather be able to take another shot at a nearby tank.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Ok, here's something I've been wondering - What are the advantages of Sternguard vs Command Squads for drop pod lists? Or does this not come up because everyone runs command squads on bikes?

I've been thinking about starting a small marine force, and as I look at drop pod options it seems like I can either get 5 sternguard with combi-meltas in a pod for 205, or I can get 5 command vets all with melta guns in a pod for only 185.

What do people generally take? I mean, both units are suicide squads, so why not go with the cheaper option? Also, if they do survive the Command squad still seems like the better option. One shot meltas and then special ammunition after that? No thanks, I'd rather be able to take another shot at a nearby tank.

Good question. The way I see it, Sternguard you kind of want to keep alive as they're very good even without the meltas and over multiple turns, so you want to keep them alive, and to that end take more than 5 guys. Command squads, meanwhile cap at 5 men so although they potentially have greater utility over multiple turns, it's much easier to prevent that from happening.

Both are sound choices, the way I see it.

I like this thread too.

I'll start by throwing out my generic pitch for tactical terminators and posessed.

jakl277 wrote:Chaos terminators.

CSM terminators are one of the best units in the game.

You start with all the benefits of a terminator (2+, ++, deepstrike) and add all the benefits of sternguard (deepstrike, combi-weapons), and all the benefits of a crusader/DCA blob (++, tons of at-initiative power attacks), and you still have the option to take powerfists and chainfists, and heavy flamers, and an AA weapon.

And THEN you can give them marks to make them better in close combat, or more durable, or to take nearly-stormshields AND shooting weapons. And THEN you can give them icons which make them much more likely to get into close combat, or gives them fear, or makes their guns start people on fire, or gives them feel no pain.

You can use CSM termies as nothing but melticide, especially since they're cheaper than regular terminators to boot, but there is a HUGE pile of stuff you can do with them. Super customizable, lots of good setups, can work in any army. I really, really like CSM termies.

Mr Morden wrote:Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

Well, just look at what they do.

To start with, they all have power weapons. Even at a measly S3, this automatically makes them better in close combat than most stuff. Furthermore, the exarch can EASILY be tooled to dominate challenges with a source of at-initiative AP2, the banshee mask, the shield of grace, etc. They can also have fear which, in combination with the power weapons and the strikes-faster-than-you with Ap3 means that you're going to be able to pretty much run over any basic infantry unit on the charge.

Nothing else in the codex has these qualities except seer councils and scorpions. So then what do they have different from those? Firstly, compared to the seer council they're very, very cheap. They don't get as much versatility, and can't cast psychic power, etc. etc. but you really have to pay for those with a seer council, of which you can only have one and, depending on the army, may be at reduced size if you're using them as sergeants. On the other side, you have scorpions, who also mulch light infantry no problem. They do, however, instantly lose 2/3rds of their effectiveness the moment they come across power armor.

So, what does this leave? banshees are going to be good for handling things that are I4 or better, and they're going to be for handling Sv3+ (and Sv4+ in a pinch), and are going to beat face in challenges. That means...

- They can compete in the initiative game. This makes them good against pretty much all dark eldar, who have low toughness and rely on speed. It also makes them good against the eldar codex as well.

- They ignore Sv3+, and Ap5 doesn't ignore their armor. Say hello to the entire MEq spectrum. It's going to be especially good against MEq that are also good in close combat, like khorne berzerkers, noise marines, or assault marines. Also, there is a slough of mid-weight MEq characters that may not be in terminator or artificer armor like librarians, dark apostles, several special characters, and aspiring champions. And then, of course, you add the executioner, and suddenly the exarch has a pretty good chance of beating up any character in a challenge, even at just 35 points, with the odds going way up with a few 10 point upgrades.

Both of this means two things. The first is that they can make some pretty decent assassins. Picking that one unit that your opponent is relying on to give synergy to the rest of their army and then removing it mid-game. The second is that they're sort of the anti-elites-choice-elite-choice. Just think of the long list of stuff that's more expensive than they are that they can handle with relative ease, from stormtroopers to sternguard to crisis suits to chosen to trueborn to immortals. The list goes on and on of elites choices that are just better troops choices who will get massacred by a cheaper unit. This is especially true if you use them in a defensive fashion. Their CC threat bubble is pretty large, and there's an awful lot they can beat or at least hurt well beyond its points cost on the countercharge, even some of the tougher stuff if the rest of your army softens them up a bit with shooting.

As such, banshees are sort of "save the day" units. Something comes up and banshees rush in like superheroes to stop it at the last minute. For really, really cheap.

They're like a better version of guard rough riders.

Paradigm wrote:Creed is a tough one, as he costs as much as another CCS with toys and only brings one more order, but there are some situations I can see him being useful.

To be fair, creed was only sort of worth it in the first place as a gimmick to outflank something. The honor of cadia order died with power blobs, and anything he could do would be done better with two CCSs. Honestly, tactical genius is still sort of a gimmick.

But now that he absorbed everything useful about kell into himself, he's no longer just straight worse than two CCSs. Yes, he only has 3 orders instead of 4, but those rerolls without a vox net are killer. As mentioned, not everything can take a vox, and even the stuff you can... do you actually want to? Creed isn't cheap, but the price of a second CCS and a vox net quickly overtakes creed's cost.

More importantly, creed makes it easier for you to run MSU guard now. Extra orders that just pass without voxes or commissars plunked into each and every squad. Yeah, this means he pairs with HWSs, but it also means he works better with MSU infantry platoons as well. Plus, he's also better with other support units like ratlings and ogryn.

Not all armies are going to benefit from creed (like mech armies, who don't make much use of CCSs anyways) but those armies that play the orders game could do worse than invest in making their orders better.

 Ailaros wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

Well, just look at what they do.
...

As such, banshees are sort of "save the day" units. Something comes up and banshees rush in like superheroes to stop it at the last minute. For really, really cheap.

They're like a better version of guard rough riders.

I reeeeeeeally want to make banshees work. I agree with most of what you've said here - except that I do want to point out how often STR 3 can let you down vs. marines. I can't count the number of times I've just utterly failed to wound anything vs. T4, and then relied on the exarch to actually do the killing.

That said - with the new battle bro's rules I'm adding a little DE contingent into my army so that I can run them in a raider. I'm going to stick an archon in the unit as well with a huskblade and basically just treat him as an extra exarch. I run Guardians with bright lances on foot as it is and the necessary Kabbalite squad can just take a dark lance and fit right in. ^_^ The whole DE crew will be less than 300 points, so we'll see how it goes.

If they had changed Ordnance to actually not be terrible, I'd use my Monolith once more. I miss him...

Oh man. Monoliths. I have a friend with one of those. the first time I blew it up with assaulting swooping hawks he spent about 15 minutes searching through its special rules - certain that there was something about haywire in there. Honestly, there probably should be some sort of resistance, doncha think?

Mabye 6 banchies in a venom. They are tiny transports that can often hide out of LOS.

How about my two max units of Rough Riders?

Love these guys and want them to be worth it so bad, but if I'm honest with myself I'd rather have a Vendetta take up one slot for the same points cost as 20 Rough Riders.

 Frankenberry wrote:
How about my two max units of Rough Riders?

Love these guys and want them to be worth it so bad, but if I'm honest with myself I'd rather have a Vendetta take up one slot for the same points cost as 20 Rough Riders.

One Vendetta is never going to save your army from the wing-a-ling Hive Tyrant currently slurping down the rest of your army. 20 Rough Riders will, easily.

It's a shame they lost Mogul Kamir. Him+Rough Riders was the most cost efficient killing power assault unit in the game, no exceptions.

Belac Ynnead wrote: except that I do want to point out how often STR 3 can let you down vs. marines.

I played power blobs all through 5th edition. Yeah, an S3 power weapon is crummy, but LOTS of S3 power weapon attacks will rip marines apart.

I mean, if you're looking at just five banshees and seeing how crappy they are, remember that you're only spending 75 points on them. At that kind of bargain basement price, it SHOULDN'T completely dominate big squads of marines.

Frankenberry wrote:How about my two max units of Rough Riders?

Rough riders are banshees but worse, but even cheaper. Just keep them hidden somewhere and when something big and scary comes nearby shout "surprise!" and hit him with 30 S5 Ap3 attacks. It shouldn't be that difficult to set up a 110 point piece trade with that kind of damage profile.

And if your opponent doesn't bring something big and scary to you, well, they're still fast, at least, and you can still give them special weapons. They can still be cheap zone defenders and be mid-field lurking threats. Plus, with the new battle missions, having something that can scoot around at calvary speeds can be nice.

 Ailaros wrote:

Rough riders are banshees but worse, but even cheaper.

Are you sure you don't mean better and cheaper? S5 is vastly better than S3. Neither of them will be in more than one assault, so the one use thing doesn't matter. Plus, assault grenades so they'll actually swing first, instead of probably simultaneously. Krak grenades, so they can butcher vehicles. And Hammer of Wrath, which is perhaps the most underrated assault rule in the game. Also, way faster, but you did mention that.

 Ailaros wrote:

Just keep them hidden somewhere and when something big and scary comes nearby shout "surprise!" and hit him with 30 S5 Ap3 attacks

20 S5 AP3 attacks. Hunting lances are specialist weapons.

Seriously, Rough Riders are excellent.

Ah.

Banshees at least get an armor save against bolters, and can be super in challenges, and can take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport. And have Ap5 pistols, and can take fear, and have battle focus.

Yes, I know, a bunch of tiny things. I'd think the fact that they're more likely to actually get into a close combat (especially if your opponent is running a gunline) makes up for them being not quite so good when they get there.

The main issue I have with CSM termies for anything other than suicide units and HQ escorts is that will occasionally have to take a morale check, and when they fail it, its a huge pile of points running like sissies. You can give them the fearless banner but its an inordinate amount of points and the model carrying will die when you need it most.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Dark Angels Veterans... expensive, and they don't even seem to *have* one trick, besides getting more expensive when you give them decent weaponry. At best you can make them a bit like Chaos Terminators only more expensive and not as good.

I'd run them like mini-Sternguard in a Deathwing list, loading them up on combi-plasma/melta and Drop Pod them in, with your focus being on taking out the primary sources of AP2 or 1 in the enemy army. Their one job is to deal with the threats to the Deathwing and contribute to the alpha-strike of the army, leaving the Terminators free to engage softer targets. It can take a little pressure of the Terminators to kill the threats to them on the drop.

If they survive, charge the nearest unit. To this end, I'd take BP/CCW on everyone without a combi.

Indeed another use for them is a close range threat for a lrc/lrr. Tia then to a full harness pfg tech and give em all fame and melta weapons and cc weapons.

If someone should try and cc your land raider while Ita dumping obscene amounts of damage with its bolters or las cannons. They all get out of the bus and make it a one way trip; or they at least feed the enemy long enough for your brick to skulk off and get away from the cc.

Darzolak wrote:
In regards to the Chaos terminators they are much more versatile than the SM counter parts, so could work for chaos doesn't really work for SM. So as far as I see it the SM terminators don't really work unless it TH/SS termi's in a LR.

I would like to see someone come up with a way to make Pyrovores work or at least potentially do something in a game.

Outside of a Cities of death game or maybe a Planetstrike game, I just can't see how to make Pyro's usable. The model is to big to hide easy, to slow to be good at assault, it blows up and get basic flamer as the only weapon. I had expected it to get torrent in the latest codex. but it got nothing.

JubbJubbz wrote:You can give them the fearless banner but its an inordinate amount of points and the model carrying will die when you need it most.

Or you don't put the banner in the front of the squad.

Or you attach a lord to your ~400+ point ubersquad and they become fearless.




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I also see things like this:

Wyzilla wrote:That doesn't however remove the fact that Warp Talons can end up costing you a fourth of the average sized army, and are only really useful when fighting Space Marines.

Warp talons have everything going for them that rough riders and howling banshees do. Just because they're Ap3 doesn't make them worthless, it just makes them GROSSLY underrated.

Warp talons are still fast, and they still basically ignore terrain. They still, when your opponent sets up right for you to exploit it, have the ability to deepstrike. And with 3+/5++, and T4, and the ability to be made T5 or 4++, they're a LOT more survivable than those other options. And they get fear for free, and a blind attack you'll almost never get to use.

And they're S4, and they're shred, which means they're a much more serious threat to monstrous creatures. There's a lot going on for them here.

Yes, like rough riders and banshees, they're going to be much easier to use in a strictly defensive role, but with deepstrike, at least, they have the ability to play zone defense better, and will have a much easier time doing things like picking off back-field objective holders.

And to say they're only good against marines is beyond silly. What they do to marines, they also do to firewarriors and crisis suits, and warriors and certain other TMCs, and they will certainly put the fear of the emperor into a guard blob. 10 MoK warp talons will kill 24 guardsmen on the charge. So much for the invincible pile of infantry. And any infantry squad that's not fearless, well, makes a fear test.

Like banshees and rough riders, they can blow away chaff units no problem, but they're also really good against most of the mid-level hitters and small squads that rely on not having a massive pile of attacks thrown at them. Heck, warp talons will even beat terminators.

And, like the other options we're talking about, at a discount to whatever they're likely killing. With speed and flexibility to boot.

Warp talons are still super useful, and that's before you start using them as a deepstrike bodyguard for a sorcerer or brand lord.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, the drop pod approach is definitely viable, but they're *so* expensive.

My problem with them is that though they don't compete in role with the drop podding flamer-wielding assault marines, they do compete for drop pods.

5-man assault squad + drop pod + 2 flamers + combi-flamer = 105 pts.

5-man vet squad + drop pod + 2 combi-meltas + melta = 155 pts!

I guess if I owned 3 drop pods, though, one of each plus a Venerable Dread with multimelta and heavy flamer could add a nice bit of pressure to a Deathwing drop list.

well remember, assault Marines don't NEED drop pods, as jump infantry can deep strike. so you might be able to drop pod those veterns, and just deep strike your Assault Marines

 krodarklorr wrote:
If they had changed Ordnance to actually not be terrible, I'd use my Monolith once more. I miss him...

I don't klnow if this was from 6th or not but in 7th with ordnance you get to roll two dice and pick the highest when rolling for pen. its something right?

Oh Banshees...

They have their uses, but you're overestimating s3. Against t4, Warlocks are going to wound more than twice as often (2/6 vs 5/6), and have a 4+ invuln, which is better than a 4+ armor. Banshees might be slightly more deadly to MEQ, but they aren't notably deadly to anything less, and can't touch anything more. Send them up against either T5 or 2+, and they can't do squat. Send them up against T3 4+, and they just don't kill enough.

As for the Exarch, the small number of attacks coupled with the only a marginally a high S (s5ap2 iirc), and you're not safe against even a naked Sarge (2 attacks or 3 on the charge, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, each attack has less than 50% chance of wounding its ideal target). Somehow, mine has actually lost both challenges its been in with Marine seargents (one just had a chains word +pistol even). Good, but not great.

For a few more points, you can get Scorpions. Their Warriors are slightly worse versus MEQ, but much better against everything else (s4 is huge). And their Exarch should punk any sarge, and many HQs, with ease. With move through cover, assault grenades, and infiltrate, they can almost always get where they eamt faster. With 3+ and Stealth, they can take a lot more punishment. And they can even throw out some s3 at i10 just for kicks.

No matter how you slice it, banshees just aren't good in this edition assault-wise. They still get a slot in my Swordwind, but rarely do they outperform other units.

Although, there was the time 4 aspects warriors killed 7 Marines in melee after the Exarch wiffed...

 Ailaros wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:You can give them the fearless banner but its an inordinate amount of points and the model carrying will die when you need it most.

Or you don't put the banner in the front of the squad.

Or you attach a lord to your ~400+ point ubersquad and they become fearless.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also see things like this:

Wyzilla wrote:That doesn't however remove the fact that Warp Talons can end up costing you a fourth of the average sized army, and are only really useful when fighting Space Marines.

Warp talons have everything going for them that rough riders and howling banshees do. Just because they're Ap3 doesn't make them worthless, it just makes them GROSSLY underrated.

Warp talons are still fast, and they still basically ignore terrain. They still, when your opponent sets up right for you to exploit it, have the ability to deepstrike. And with 3+/5++, and T4, and the ability to be made T5 or 4++, they're a LOT more survivable than those other options. And they get fear for free, and a blind attack you'll almost never get to use.

And they're S4, and they're shred, which means they're a much more serious threat to monstrous creatures. There's a lot going on for them here.

Yes, like rough riders and banshees, they're going to be much easier to use in a strictly defensive role, but with deepstrike, at least, they have the ability to play zone defense better, and will have a much easier time doing things like picking off back-field objective holders.

And to say they're only good against marines is beyond silly. What they do to marines, they also do to firewarriors and crisis suits, and warriors and certain other TMCs, and they will certainly put the fear of the emperor into a guard blob. 10 MoK warp talons will kill 24 guardsmen on the charge. So much for the invincible pile of infantry. And any infantry squad that's not fearless, well, makes a fear test.

Like banshees and rough riders, they can blow away chaff units no problem, but they're also really good against most of the mid-level hitters and small squads that rely on not having a massive pile of attacks thrown at them. Heck, warp talons will even beat terminators.

And, like the other options we're talking about, at a discount to whatever they're likely killing. With speed and flexibility to boot.

Warp talons are still super useful, and that's before you start using them as a deepstrike bodyguard for a sorcerer or brand lord.

How would you reccomend them for the fluffy slaaneshi Night Lords army I'm building/intend to build? Current builds I've been thinking off is either one Warp Talon squad, max units with a Mark of Slaanesh to increase their initiative (most useful for power-fist Aspiring Champions) coupled with a Sorcerer built to spam invisibility on them. Or three full squads of Warp Talons taking the Mark of Slaanesh with an invisibility casting Sorcerer to fill up my Fast Attack.

Unless of course I choose to go unbound. I really do love the new 7th Edition. Took long enough.

Definitely give them the +1 Init mark. The thing they exist to do is slaughter MEQ, and if you can hit before I4 then you give them an edge over anything other than Halberd GK.

30 I can see being pretty lethal, if costly, as they are guaranteed to survive in some number and can then go rampaging. It would work like the choppy version of mass Stormtroopers, trading damage on the drop for the 'oh gak next turn we're dead' effect they will have on the opponent. Most armies can't kill 30 MEQ with a 5++ in a single turn if they're concentrated against half or less of of the army, and then when they do survive, they're going to tear something a new one.

Have you considered pairing them with some allied Demons? More units for DS saturation may help their survivability.

Bharring wrote:They have their uses, but you're overestimating s3.

Or you're underestimating the quantity of attacks.

Bharring wrote:Against t4, Warlocks are going to wound more than twice as often (2/6 vs 5/6), and have a 4+ invuln, which is better than a 4+ armor.

And are nearly twice as expensive, and you can only take one squad of them.

Bharring wrote: Banshees might be slightly more deadly to MEQ, but they aren't notably deadly to anything less, and can't touch anything more.

This is only true if there's nothing else in the entire game with an armor save of Sv3+ or worse.

And there are those things.

Wyzilla wrote:How would you reccomend them for the fluffy slaaneshi Night Lords army I'm building/intend to build?

The strange thing is that they're actually not that dissimilar to the rest of a slaanesh army - they're fast, they ignore cover saves, and they're primarily good against infantry. In a way, the way you support warp talons in a slaanesh list is the same way you support noise marines. Bring a bunch of anti-tank and a little more anti-MC, and the warp talons will do against anything else.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:

My problem with them is that though they don't compete in role with the drop podding flamer-wielding assault marines, they do compete for drop pods.

well remember, assault Marines don't NEED drop pods, as jump infantry can deep strike. so you might be able to drop pod those veterns, and just deep strike your Assault Marines

Yeah, the jump packs let them deepstrike.

Anyways, DA vets are just like sternguard. Turn 1 piece traders.

Except they're even more deadly because they can be used in conjunction with a turn 1 deathwing assault. Having a few units of terminators show up turn 1, and ALSO a bunch of combi-melta/plasma assassinating whatever is good against those terminators can be rather nasty.

I like people trying to say Banshees are good. Just math hammering it out, 10 banshees lose to 10 marines. The T3 and walking speed (battle focus is no more than running for these women) mean that you get slaughtered by even bolters. Once you get in combat banshees only get 2A so are only marginally better than marines and the marines will outnumber them > 2-1.

To show how bad banshees are, GW created Death Cult Assassins and gave them to nearly every single army with the Inquisiton update. 3A, 10 points, 5++ save, possible scoring, power weapon mixing (while banshees get FAQ'd to only swords), cheaper transports, and cheap ablative wounds. Yet nearly no one takes them.

No, banshees are just horrid. I would agree with the general consensus that they are the worst unit in the game.



Harlequins are a bit on the odd side. On one hand, the shadowseer is a HUGE liability and drains warp charges from other psykers just to cast the only thing that keeps the squad alive. On the other hand, i used them all the way back to 4th with their 40 rending S4 attacks on the charge being able to wipe almost anything. I do like still using these guys as an escort for Eldrad now and again. Eldrad is often able to grab Fortune to protect these guys if the Veil goes down while the Veil means Eldrad can focus on casting all his stuff on other things in the army. At worst, Eldrad's Warlord trait means the Harlequins can at least run into cover and get a pretty decent cover save. Also, Eldrad is a boss in challenges where the shadowseer you want to keep as far away as possible from challenges.


For me, i want Yriel to be good. He was such a boss in 5th-early 6th with nearly every list i had using him. Owning both Craftworld and Corsair armies he was the bridge between them. Yet in the 6th codex he is just awful. Up in points, even more vulnerable to S6+, AP3, forgot how to throw his spear, lost S9 vs vehicles, and lost a BS and WS. He was a maybe-take for most people in 5th-6th but GW apparently saw the need to wreck him nearly as hard as possible.

just to keep things on track (because I'm really liking this thread so far), remember that the point of the OP was not to determine which unit is *best*, but rather how best to use a given unit that we already know *isn't* top tier...