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Inspired by this thread from 40k General: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603410.page, titled 'Units That Never Leave The Shelf. Reading through that, I noticed a lot of people leaving perfectly serviceable units out of their army for various reasons. I figured we could use a thread here where, instead of dismissing units, we work together to find a use for them.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not expecting someone to come along with a suggestion for turning Penitent Engines into GT winners or the like, but rather just providing ways in which we can all get the most out of our collections. So basically, post here the units you can't or won't use because you're not convinced of their usefulness, and hopefully people will come along with suggestions.

The thing to bear in mind here is that some units are better than others at certain roles, but that doesn't have to relegate their competition to uselessness. The Best doesn't matter here, but Good Enough does. I know a lot of people don't look at tactics in this way, and that's all good, but for those of us that do I hope this thread can remain positive, informative and useful.

So, have at it. Be as specific or vague as you like (ie. Assault Marines vs 5 Assault Marines with a Power Sword and a Flamer, both are fine here).

As much as i love him i can bring my self to bring out CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED as he almost costs a quarter of my points always. amidoingitright?

Bloodcrushers.

With their drop in toughness and loss of 3+ from the last book, many, including myself, class them as way too fragile for their points. We are right, no doubt about that, but..

They hit like a brick in a sock, and they're quick as hell.

I've identified my main issue is only running three in a unit (with Herald) which means that they're way too easy to focus down.

My fix would be to run a bigger unit (I have another 3 buried deep in the production line,) include something like the Grimoire with the idea to specifically increase their survivability, and use the icon so they can get one decent length charge in per game guaranteed.

I may also consider supporting them with a skull cannon, to allow them to charge into units in cover without penalty.

Use monolith as Bastion o/

Desubot wrote:As much as i love him i can bring my self to bring out CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED as he almost costs a quarter of my points always. amidoingitright?

Creed is a tough one, as he costs as much as another CCS with toys and only brings one more order, but there are some situations I can see him being useful.

If you're running a lot of low-leadership units (HWS, Conscripts) then his auto-re-roll ability on all Orders tests can be handy in supporting them; as they can't take voxes, he's the only way to 'twin-link' their orders. A little sitational, but even outside of that he can save a fair bit on voxes.

2 Warlord traits gives him a decent chance to roll the 'extra order' or 'extra order range' warlord trait from the IG book (and if you get both, that could be awesome) or even the D3 Outflank one which gives him the old 'Tactical Genius' rule back. With 5/6 of the IG Warlord Traits being good, you can count on a free, if a little random, 'bonus ability'.

I you use the malestrom-related Warlord Traits, that could be pretty cool as well.

azreal13 wrote:Bloodcrushers.

With their drop in toughness and loss of 3+ from the last book! many! including myself! class them as way too fragile for their points. We are right, no doubt about that, but..

They hit like a brick in a sock, and they're quick as hell.

I've identified my main issue is only running three in a unit (with Herald) which means that they're way too easy to focus down.

My fix would be to run a bigger unit (I have another 3 buried deep in the production line,) include something like the Grimoire with the idea to specifically increase their survivability, and use the icon so they can get one decent length charge in per game guaranteed.

I may also consider supporting them with a skull cannon, to allow them to charge into units in cover without penalty.

Seems like the way to go. Another one would be to run a pair of smaller units in tandem, as the enemy is forced to split fire between them and will probably find it harder to gun down two separate units than one larger one (they're less susceptible to blasts and massed fire as smaller units). It also gives you the option to split up should targets present themselves, or charge multiple targets without losing the A bonus overall.

Maybe run them with Khorne Dogs as a second wave?

Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

At least they can use raiders now (though not T1 which kinda sucks)

I have yet to build my second monolith because I don't know what to make with two.

 Desubot wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

At least they can use raiders now (though not T1 which kinda sucks)

This is a good idea. Keep them in cover/out of LOS if you're going second, move 6", drive as fast as you can and hit the closest MEQ you can get to. You don't lose any distance by not starting embarked, just spend a turn in the open, which can be somewhat mitigated by cover and terrain. Also, threat overload also applies here; 1 assault unit will get gunned down, 2 might be, 3 assault units will hit something. I'm not suggesting 3 units of Banshees, but throw in some Wyches/Bloodbrides/Scorpions/Incubi and you get the idea.

a couple months before the new SM codex came out, I built and painted a CC biker captain and command squad kitted out with assorted power weapons and storm shields. back then, it was an expensive but decently killy unit relative to what was available in the codex. with the new codex, and 7th, they seem way too pricey to justify a spot in my usual 1500-2000 lists. especially in light of how they fail to benefit at all from my chosen chapter tactics (salamanders):

captain on bike with power first & lightning claw
biker with two lightning claws
biker with power maul and storm shield
biker with power axe and storm shield
biker with power sword and storm shield
apothecary on bike

short of proxying these guys as some other flavor of bikers (grav bikers are an obvious choice, but I try to run WYSIWYG as much as possible), what uses do they have that would justify their costs for a 1500+ salamanders army?

Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

I'm looking at two units to try out again.

1. Warp Hunter. I was not a fan of the update, but will give it another shot.

2. Harlequins. In early 6th, I played the Harliestar and it was a lot of fun. Now, Invisibility has me taking another hard look at them. We will see.

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

While they might not be the most point efficient unit out there, they still can kill things. If you play in a Tuadar world where you can’t shake a stick without eating a AP2/rending pie plate, they they have issues. For more moderate tables, you keep them away from the one or two plasma guns on the table and have fun.

I periodically field mine 5 man, assault cannon, and a chainfist. The firepower might not be the best, but it’s mobile and good for whittling down troops. In a pinch the AsC can take a stab at most anything, hoping for a rend. In CC you have the sarge with his sword, and then the fists. 2 attacks each, more on the charge. This will wreck most things’ days.

One of the key things is keeping them away from AP2 and masses of troops. Luckily with deep strike, you often can.

They are a jack of all trades unit, and pay a lot for flexibility. They have some flaws. But if you step away from the “every game is top table tournament competitive” and “always assume the worst case scenario” they actually can be fun to use.

Harlequin Death Jester

Chaos terminators. I run them all with combi plasma and some heavy flamers and MoN in a big squad with a sorcerer. Transport them in a land raider using belakor to make it invisible. Not competitive but it works in most games. A land raider that can only be hit on snap shots is pretty hard to kill. You can also give it shrouding with belakor who can sit behind it for safety(that way you dont have to fly him and can get a turn two assault) .

Coming out of the land raider you have a sorcerer to do stuff and just a stupid amount of Ap2 incoming. Move it to the biggest concentration of enemy infantry and just unload. Then assault with a buttload of Ap2 str 5 (or does it give +2 forget) attacks from axes.

The land raider SHOULD make it across the table safely. The problem is this unit will almost never make its points back. Putting 8 Plague marines with a sorc in termie armor (with some nifty upgrades) will do the same thing better. 3 poisoned attacks each on the charge. Melta shots for tanky light armor in the way. The sorcerer will provide Ap2 and extra shooting.

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

Land Speeder Vengeance. I have no idea what GW was thinking on this vehicle. It seems sopowerful and I want to use it. The idea of a 24" range I-will-blow-my-self-up cannon mounted on a 2 hull point flying paper bag worries me though. Always wanted to see someones face though deepstriking it in and dropping a 5" template on something.

I think putting a Terminator sorcerer with a spell familiar into a squad of Chaos Termies could be pretty legit. You get psychic shriek for free, so if you roll on invisibility and deep-strike that bad boy you could do some nasty things.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think putting a Terminator sorcerer with a spell familiar into a squad of Chaos Termies could be pretty legit. You get psychic shriek for free, so if you roll on invisibility and deep-strike that bad boy you could do some nasty things.

Every answer in this thread could be, "Put invisibility on it and it's not bad!" People need to broaden their tactics farther than, I hope I get invisibility.

Rough Riders, especially if I was able to use my conversion with the new Scion Models and Pistolier Legs and Horses.

Mr Morden wrote:Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

Bharring wrote:Harlequin Death Jester

Oh gosh, Banshees are really bad...the best bet is to take either Baraharroth or Asurmen. Both either have falcon's swiftness(or might roll it) a 2+/4++ to tank, and decent CC power. Baraharroth brings hit and run as well as the chance to blind the enemy, compounded with a banshee exarch w/fear and executioner you have a decent chance of not getting wiped out on the counter strike.

Harlequins are really difficult to use, although the death jester meshes well with Maugan Ra to tank hits. The problem is the shadowseer in the new edition. She needs the power to go off, which means dumping dice into veil of tears, but 2/3 times she rolls 2 or more sixes she dies, taking her blessing with her. Plus the lack of battle focus is outright insulting, when you can take guardians and a warlock+shuricannon with maugan ra for similar effect and cost....

 Goldphish wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think putting a Terminator sorcerer with a spell familiar into a squad of Chaos Termies could be pretty legit. You get psychic shriek for free, so if you roll on invisibility and deep-strike that bad boy you could do some nasty things.

Every answer in this thread could be, "Put invisibility on it and it's not bad!" People need to broaden their tactics farther than, I hope I get invisibility.

Well, beyond Termicide or a grimoire there's not a whole lot that can be done for them.

There's a reason "invisibility or bust" or "grimoire or bust" is a common suggestion. If these units were good enough to not rely on one-trick pony cheese, they wouldn't be in this category in the first place.

"hope you get invis..."

belakor always has it

Repentia get mixed reviews.

One way which I use them is as a countercharge unit for backfield defence as I usually leave small units to hold objectives or have Retributors as a firebase. Alternatively, it would be the usual load into a Rhino for forward purposes.

One thing I've wanted to try would be to bubble wrap them with a large sisters unit. Saves them for when the drop pod comes down and unloads marines or when assault troops DS near my main group. Protects them from fire and hopefully they get to blend marines with their 3+ FNP and 6+ invuln saves.

 Goldphish wrote:

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

Land Speeder Vengeance. I have no idea what GW was thinking on this vehicle. It seems sopowerful and I want to use it. The idea of a 24" range I-will-blow-my-self-up cannon mounted on a 2 hull point flying paper bag worries me though. Always wanted to see someones face though deepstriking it in and dropping a 5" template on something.

one way the lsv can work is as a flanking vehicle with some other speeders in support. You bring the apex of the fight to one table edge then use them to swing inward from the other keeping los and high quality terrain between you and your enemy. Stick a librarian with them if you want to twin link the vengeance.

Use the speeders to blast the edge of his army off and force him to go deal with them.

Another fix gw could do is give us the ability to look out sir on our speeders and bury him in a squad of other speeders. A squadron of speeders rolling and trolling like absolute bosses and with even 6 ablative hp on the vengeance it would go from 0 to hero just like that.

I love the idea of this thread. If someone tells me something is unplayable it makes me want to play this unit even more.

I would love to play both of my Monoliths, as someone already said before. I'm thinking of running them as a wall in front to get close to the enemy, then suck them into the game or port out slow units that don't get used much either, e.g. Praetorians.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

While they might not be the most point efficient unit out there, they still can kill things. If you play in a Tuadar world where you can’t shake a stick without eating a AP2/rending pie plate, they they have issues. For more moderate tables, you keep them away from the one or two plasma guns on the table and have fun.

I periodically field mine 5 man, assault cannon, and a chainfist. The firepower might not be the best, but it’s mobile and good for whittling down troops. In a pinch the AsC can take a stab at most anything, hoping for a rend. In CC you have the sarge with his sword, and then the fists. 2 attacks each, more on the charge. This will wreck most things’ days.

One of the key things is keeping them away from AP2 and masses of troops. Luckily with deep strike, you often can.

They are a jack of all trades unit, and pay a lot for flexibility. They have some flaws. But if you step away from the “every game is top table tournament competitive” and “always assume the worst case scenario” they actually can be fun to use.

Yep, Nev has the right of it here.

Terminators need care and support to use, but when they work, they work. They can't just drop in solo in front of the enemy gunline without any backup and not get killed, but if you drop in with a Pod Dread, another Termy squad, Assault Marines or some other threat that forces the enemy to split fire them they stand a good chance.

Assault Cannon is the way to go due to the versatility of it, I think, although I've had some good success burning out units in cover with a Heavy Flamer out of nowhere. Maybe a Chainfist, but unless you're running after Land Raiders or Monoliths then a few Power Fists should be able to handle it.

Why not use them as a pair with one deep striking in enemy territory? I he has blobs guarding backfield, you can pull in tesla immortals. If he has vehicles, maybe pull a 20 man warrior blob. Would that work?

By pulling your guys to his line, he would have to double back his advance forces to defend or press on ahead. If he presses on, the base Monolith could bring them back.

 Murenius wrote:
I love the idea of this thread. If someone tells me something is unplayable it makes me want to play this unit even more.

I would love to play both of my Monoliths, as someone already said before. I'm thinking of running them as a wall in front to get close to the enemy, then suck them into the game or port out slow units that don't get used much either, e.g. Praetorians.

If you've got two, then I think there's some fun to be had by using them as large LOS blockers to protect weaker units, and then teleport them in front when the enemy come in range. Say, for example, you hide 10 Immortals behind each, and have another squad of them with a Veiltek. The enemy close, and you move up behind the Monolith. When they're around 15" or so from the Monolith, teleport the hiding units forward, teleport the Veiltek unit behind them, and catch them in a crossfire. (Bonus points for shouting 'it's a TRAP' beforehand). This could also work with Warriors.

The other thing to consider is that 2 giant AV14 vehicles will give you a VERY solid core of the army to fight around, it's like having mobile Bastions in that you have a solid and reliable anchor point. The enemy will naturally be drawn towards this, as other than Railguns the best weapons to kill them need to be at a reasonably close range (melta/fusion/Chainfists ect), so it'll be comparatively easier to pull a flanking manoeuvre with mobile units such as Veilteks, Wraiths, Anni-Barges or Tomb Blades. Basically, the enemy either has to cede board control to you (and therefore some objectives) or focus A LOT on taking it from you, which also plays into your hands quite nicely.

For monoliths use them as support units and bullies to vehicles and buildings. they tank shock at str 10 and are fun to use a C'tan ping-pong. They are sturdy drop pods that can move around and always pop things out of them. MEQ/vehicle wreckers with their ordnance or glance-a-holics with their 4 turrets for MSU transports all over the board. Toss in zhandrek and deep strike it during your opponent's turn and spit out an entire 20 man unit or warriors (necron faq for 7th: "Add 'Note that a Monolith can use its dimensional corridor on a turn that it deploys by Deep Strike.'' to the end of the rule") Or the MC from FW. PLus even it death if it wasn't exploded it has its uses as free LOS blocking terrain.

In regards to the Chaos terminators they are much more versatile than the SM counter parts, so could work for chaos doesn't really work for SM. So as far as I see it the SM terminators don't really work unless it TH/SS termi's in a LR.

I would like to see someone come up with a way to make Pyrovores work or at least potentially do something in a game.