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 trexmeyer wrote:
And then the Shadows or Vorlons come in and lay waste to both sides for not following their respective dogmatic beliefs.

If its a battle to see who is the fittest than the Shadows are happy to get some "popcorn" and watch.,.....

The Vorlons want you to behave, follow orders and of course worship them so yeah they would break it up.........

 trexmeyer wrote:
And then the Shadows or Vorlons come in and lay waste to both sides for not following their respective dogmatic beliefs.

Well someone has to.

I'm quite enjoying this analysis. With or without peregrine gaking over everything.

Blackhoof wrote:
I'm quite enjoying this analysis. With or without peregrine gaking over everything.

What are you enjoying about it?

 whitedragon wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:
I'm quite enjoying this analysis. With or without peregrine gaking over everything.

What are you enjoying about it?

I’m enjoying this thread as well.

The thought and reasoning that goes into these kinds of arguments is almost as interesting as the conclusions. Obviously there is bias, and the source material is sketchy. Even in a single universe, thing like plot armor and cinematic/story factors will influence how well things perform. We can compare real world things because they all play by the same rules. Not the case in sci-fi settings. But the “What if?” apples to oranges comparisons is one of the quintessential aspects of geek culture. Even if they are by nature doomed to fail.

 Nevelon wrote:
Even in a single universe, thing like plot armor and cinematic/story factors will influence how well things perform.

I don't really think this is good, because good writing provides that plot armor... What I mean is, if there's a story of the USS Enterprise and crew and theyre meeting some hostile people who are at a disadvantage compared to the E (the enemy ship is older, or the race just doesnt have better tech, etc) then the camera will cut to Engineering, where Scotty, Data, or LaForge will exclaim loudly, that something has gone wrong, which leaves the ship in a vulnerable place.

To me, this is completely different from say... "A small one man fighter will fly down this single trench, and launch a torpedo at a 2m exhaust port, which is the only weakness of this thing"

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Even in a single universe, thing like plot armor and cinematic/story factors will influence how well things perform.

I don't really think this is good, because good writing provides that plot armor... What I mean is, if there's a story of the USS Enterprise and crew and theyre meeting some hostile people who are at a disadvantage compared to the E (the enemy ship is older, or the race just doesnt have better tech, etc) then the camera will cut to Engineering, where Scotty, Data, or LaForge will exclaim loudly, that something has gone wrong, which leaves the ship in a vulnerable place.

To me, this is completely different from say... "A small one man fighter will fly down this single trench, and launch a torpedo at a 2m exhaust port, which is the only weakness of this thing"

I was looking at the other side of the coin. Where the Big Bad is blowing galaxy class cruisers/battlestars/omegas casually out of space, yet the one with all the main characters somehow only takes a glancing hit, or manages to reconfigure the tech whatzit, or whatever deus ex excuse for them not to be cashed in the same roll as their peers. The ship with the main characters cannot be used as the benchmark for comparisons.

In this instance we have evidence of non Character ships for both though.

1. Omegas are all over the place in Season 3-4, so we're good there. They even do well against the hyper advanced ships piloted by serious Plot Armor Characters (Ivanova). However they do get destroyed by similarly powerful vessels, and ran like mamma's boys from Membari ships.

2. BSG is more difficult, but we can see action in Razor, and Blood and Chrome with nonCharacter BSs in combat. They are tough but eminently defeatable by cyclon fighter/bombers, at least with nukes. Even in the pilot a 20 Meg nuke does serious damage to BSG.

I took someone else's advice and looked at another website that did calculations to determine the power output of an Omega's frontal beam weapons. They cam to the conclusion that it's frontal weapon has a power output (each of them) in the magnitude of 2.8 megatons.

However, these calculations took A LOT of assumptions. The assumption include the distance a beam weapon sliced a hull (argued, in length, by many fans for years) how wide the beam was, how deep the beam penetrated (this website assumes 3 meters, for whatever reason), and the shape of the cut itself.

As I touched upon before, one of the few times in the Babylon 5 universe where a weapon with a known energy yield one-shots a ship is when a 2-megaton bomb, detonated at range, totally obliterated a Minbari Sharlin class ship. The best way to do engery transference in this instance would have been if the asteroid the nuke was placed on split in two, shooting one piece in each direction (one into the Sharlin). Due to Newton's third law of physics, that means that the overall force of the "killer" half of the asteroid would have been, at most, 1 megaton of force. Although, realistically it would have been considerably lower than that, probably somewhere around the .3 megaton yield at most.

Now, why is that important? It is meantioned that Sharlin Class ships have been able to one-shot human ships, but NO human ship has ever one-shotted a Sharlin, and that they do not have the ability to do so. Cannon referances state that it would take roughly three Omega Destroyers to take out a Sharlin. Therefore the power output of the main weapons battery would be considerably less than the impact that obliterated a Sharlin.

Energy weapons in the Babylon 5 universe, contrary to popular belief, CAN be intercepted, and have several times. Although realistically these would be harder to intercept than a missle or even a solid-slug type weapon.

Speeking of missiles though, during the Galactica mini-series it was show that the Galactica could quite effectively shoot down 7 anti-ship missiles simultaneously while at closer-than-normal range, while not using its fighters, not having seasoned crew, having some of it's weapons deactivated (was being turned into a museum), and being at below optimal crew levels. The hypothetical face-off assumes optimal conditions for both ships.

While on the topic of intercepting, in it's own universe an Omega class is usually NOT assigned to missions on its own. It relies heavily on escort ships to provide cover fire for intercepting fighters and incoming ordnance. The hypothetical assumes a one-on-one fight.



An issue I'd like to readdress is the ship endurance. The Galactica can be active for years and its only real issue is resupply. The Omega's listed endurance is 18 months, but its issue is not resupply, it is the physical limits of the crew themselves. The Omegas only have gravity in some areas of the ship, not all of the areas where crew are stationed. The areas that do have gravity helped increase this range over previous ships, but not as well as having ship-wide gravity like in later Warlock class vessels. The only reason I bring this up is the hypothetical fight never addressed when the fight takes place. Is it immediately after the Omega leaves dock, near the end of it mission, or somewhere in the middle.

Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb? Sheridan just said they seeded the asteroid field with gravity mines. He didn't say anything with how strong they were.

There were lots of one shot kills in the B5 universe. Vorlons and Shadows did it all the time.

In Crusade, the Excalibur had no problem with ships up with one shot hits.

The Churchill, when retreating under fire, used one shot to destroy the pursuing Hyperion class cruiser.

Also to note, in another thread, that the B5 Omegas could actually target enemy ships and weapons coming in, whereas BSG did more of a area effect flak dump.

While on the topic of intercepting, in it's own universe an Omega class is usually NOT assigned to missions on its own. It relies heavily on escort ships to provide cover fire for intercepting fighters and incoming ordnance. The hypothetical assumes a one-on-one fight

Also please cite one episode where an Omega had escort ships with it. You did watch the show correct? Omegas in the series operated in battle groups with other Omegas and cruiser strength ships.

I will note Blood and Chrome showed BSGs working in groups as well.

 Frazzled wrote:
Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb?

The show states that the standard Model 501/6 Mk XI Thermonuclear Charge has a yield of 2 Megatons.

It's also this big:



IIRC, it was stated during Thirdspace as well as one of the various episodes discussing the Earth-Minbari war.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Now, why is that important? It is meantioned that Sharlin Class ships have been able to one-shot human ships, but NO human ship has ever one-shotted a Sharlin, and that they do not have the ability to do so. Cannon referances state that it would take roughly three Omega Destroyers to take out a Sharlin. Therefore the power output of the main weapons battery would be considerably less than the impact that obliterated a Sharlin.

Energy weapons in the Babylon 5 universe, contrary to popular belief, CAN be intercepted, and have several times. Although realistically these would be harder to intercept than a missle or even a solid-slug type weapon.

Couple of things about Minbari vs Earth ships... the EA doesn't need 3 Omegas to destroy one Sharlin because the Sharlin is so heavily armored. They need three ships to destroy it because the Sharlin uses sensor and targetting-disrupting technology to prevent lock-ons and accurate fire being directed at it. Three Omegas can spit out enough beam spam that one of them is bound to get lucky and hit the Sharlin, at which point those main guns would feth it up proper. Conversely, the Sharlin doesn't have the targetting issues when facing an EA ship, so it hits with most or all of its shots, which naturally ruins the Omega's day. Firepower-wise, most major race ships (Narn, Centauri, Human, etc) are roughly on par with each other in regards to beam weapon damage output. Some races have more guns on their ships, some races have more maneuverable ships, but everybody's big beam cannons are on generally equal footing.

As for energy weapon intercepting in the B5 universe, it is important to bear in mind that continuous-beam shots are never intercepted or disrupted. They either miss or they hit and anything that gets in their way gets shredded. Pulse weapon fire can be intercepted, but as far as I know, only Earth ships have the capacity to do so (at least, that was Earth's claim to fame in one of the tabletop warship games for B5).

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb?

The show states that the standard Model 501/6 Mk XI Thermonuclear Charge has a yield of 2 Megatons.

The episode DID NOT state how many went off (watched it Sunday for grins).

 Frazzled wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb?

The show states that the standard Model 501/6 Mk XI Thermonuclear Charge has a yield of 2 Megatons.

The episode DID NOT state how many went off (watched it Sunday for grins).

I know, I'm on your side. Just showing where he may have gotten the number from.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb?

The show states that the standard Model 501/6 Mk XI Thermonuclear Charge has a yield of 2 Megatons.

The episode DID NOT state how many went off (watched it Sunday for grins).

I know, I'm on your side. Just showing where he may have gotten the number from.

Coolio and I accept your statement on the nuke size.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb?

The show states that the standard Model 501/6 Mk XI Thermonuclear Charge has a yield of 2 Megatons.

The episode DID NOT state how many went off (watched it Sunday for grins).

I know, I'm on your side. Just showing where he may have gotten the number from.

Coolio and I accept your statement on the nuke size.

The B5 wiki even states that the Drala Fi took at least two blasts, citing the movie In The Beginning as the evidence. So it took near 4 megatons to completely obliterate a single Minbari Sharlin.

Cuda, I think you've got a lot more homework to do before you can really nail this one.

It’s been a while since I watched B5, but my recollection is that is one of those constant beams hit you, no mater who shot it or who you were, you basically got part of you sliced clean off. Missiles, blasts, whatever else, you had a chance of living. But if someone put a beam on you, it was time to head for the lifeboats, or enjoy life as a dispersing cloud of gas.

s for energy weapon intercepting in the B5 universe, it is important to bear in mind that continuous-beam shots are never intercepted or disrupted. They either miss or they hit and anything that gets in their way gets shredded. Pulse weapon fire can be intercepted, but as far as I know, only Earth ships have the capacity to do so (at least, that was Earth's claim to fame in one of the tabletop warship games for B5).

Much as I hate to admit it - a Vorlon Cruiser seems to "parry" a Shadow beam with its own weapon in Interludes and Examinations...............

Various ships are one shot killed by beam weapons - Shadows are very good at it especially against the Minbari

 Mr Morden wrote:


Much as I hate to admit it - a Vorlon Cruiser seems to "parry" a Shadow beam with its own weapon in Interludes and Examinations...............

I don't remember that, but I will accept your word for it. However, Vorlons and Shadows were many, many tech levels above the other races, so I don't think they should be held up as an example of what everyone in B5 is capable of.

A Whitestar was able to burn a trapped shadow cruiser with a concentrated beam.

 Frazzled wrote:
A Whitestar was able to burn a trapped shadow cruiser with a concentrated beam.

To be fair, White Stars were designed for taking on Shadows.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
A Whitestar was able to burn a trapped shadow cruiser with a concentrated beam.

To be fair, White Stars were designed for taking on Shadows.

Yeah the Vorlons kept cheating

True, but they're also smaller than the ships we're talking about, more destroyers or light cruisers than battleships. The Excalibur would have been more of an equivalent ship to an Omega class.

Didn't A Narn heavy take out one in the same engagement when it jumped in and let go?

 Frazzled wrote:
True, but they're also smaller than the ships we're talking about, more destroyers or light cruisers than battleships. The Excalibur would have been more of an equivalent ship to an Omega class.

Didn't A Narn heavy take out one in the same engagement when it jumped in and let go?

I believe so. IIRC, Shadow Cruisers weren't hardy like their Vorlon equivalents, they were powerful, fast, and could cloak.

yep Shadow ships hit hard but equally can be hurt by powerful weapons or pinned by telepaths - which is what allowed the Narn and the White Star to kill them.

They are truely "hit and fade" ships...... they are not intended for stand up fights really.

They don't cloak but shift between space and hyperspace almost at will and can destroy the jump points younger races use.

The Excailbur is a really huge ship....

Yes the Excalibur was a manly man's vessel at 2012 meters. FInally getting into decent 40K BFG size.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The Excailbur is a really huge ship....

I loved the Excalibur, but mostly cause it reminds me of this:

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes the Excalibur was a manly man's vessel at 2012 meters. FInally getting into decent 40K BFG size.

I have 3 Shadowtech versions in ACTA scale :0

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes the Excalibur was a manly man's vessel at 2012 meters. FInally getting into decent 40K BFG size.

I have 3 Shadowtech versions in ACTA scale :0

And you live where?


Y'know, for reasons other than robbing you of one of those...

 Frazzled wrote:
Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb? Sheridan just said they seeded the asteroid field with gravity mines. He didn't say anything with how strong they were.

There were lots of one shot kills in the B5 universe. Vorlons and Shadows did it all the time.

In Crusade, the Excalibur had no problem with ships up with one shot hits.

The Churchill, when retreating under fire, used one shot to destroy the pursuing Hyperion class cruiser.

Also to note, in another thread, that the B5 Omegas could actually target enemy ships and weapons coming in, whereas BSG did more of a area effect flak dump.

While on the topic of intercepting, in it's own universe an Omega class is usually NOT assigned to missions on its own. It relies heavily on escort ships to provide cover fire for intercepting fighters and incoming ordnance. The hypothetical assumes a one-on-one fight

Also please cite one episode where an Omega had escort ships with it. You did watch the show correct? Omegas in the series operated in battle groups with other Omegas and cruiser strength ships.

I will note Blood and Chrome showed BSGs working in groups as well.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIJ3ddFTF0sA9Vf7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTByZ2N0cmxpBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMg--?p=black+star+babylon&vid=55b28a5be6c149b3381b3cfee8464917&l=3%3A52&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608044567636151144%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dy3iN-JlyYxE&tit=Earth+Force+Lexington+Vs+Minbari+%3Cb%3EBlack+Star%3C%2Fb%3E&c=1&sigr=11ageghb8&sigt=11i3tmq37&age=0&fr=yfp-t-746&tt=b

Watch around the 43 second point.

In the movie "In the Begging" Sheirdan asked if they have any tactical nukes left. The reply over the radio is there there are, and that they are 2 megaton yield.
There were plenty of times ships in B5 got one-shotted, but rarely with any kind of measurement of power, let alone this precise.

As for the Escorts, the ships most commonly used for this were the older Hyperion class. I know they are basically smaller warships in their own right, but they did have regular escort duties to Omegas. I have access to a B5 technical manual that states this also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

squidhills wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Now, why is that important? It is meantioned that Sharlin Class ships have been able to one-shot human ships, but NO human ship has ever one-shotted a Sharlin, and that they do not have the ability to do so. Cannon referances state that it would take roughly three Omega Destroyers to take out a Sharlin. Therefore the power output of the main weapons battery would be considerably less than the impact that obliterated a Sharlin.

Energy weapons in the Babylon 5 universe, contrary to popular belief, CAN be intercepted, and have several times. Although realistically these would be harder to intercept than a missle or even a solid-slug type weapon.

Couple of things about Minbari vs Earth ships... the EA doesn't need 3 Omegas to destroy one Sharlin because the Sharlin is so heavily armored. They need three ships to destroy it because the Sharlin uses sensor and targetting-disrupting technology to prevent lock-ons and accurate fire being directed at it. Three Omegas can spit out enough beam spam that one of them is bound to get lucky and hit the Sharlin, at which point those main guns would feth it up proper. Conversely, the Sharlin doesn't have the targetting issues when facing an EA ship, so it hits with most or all of its shots, which naturally ruins the Omega's day. Firepower-wise, most major race ships (Narn, Centauri, Human, etc) are roughly on par with each other in regards to beam weapon damage output. Some races have more guns on their ships, some races have more maneuverable ships, but everybody's big beam cannons are on generally equal footing.

As for energy weapon intercepting in the B5 universe, it is important to bear in mind that continuous-beam shots are never intercepted or disrupted. They either miss or they hit and anything that gets in their way gets shredded. Pulse weapon fire can be intercepted, but as far as I know, only Earth ships have the capacity to do so (at least, that was Earth's claim to fame in one of the tabletop warship games for B5).

Older vessels (especially the older Hyperion class, and even the Nova class) couldn't lock onto Minbari vessels. The Omegas were specifically redesigned to counter this. They have been noted as the first human made vessels able to track and target lock a Minbari vessel.