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A cruiser is not exactly an escort. Escorts are smaller ships to hold off fighters. You never see them with Omegas.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes the Excalibur was a manly man's vessel at 2012 meters. FInally getting into decent 40K BFG size.

I have 3 Shadowtech versions in ACTA scale :0

And you live where?


Y'know, for reasons other than robbing you of one of those...

Across the pond - UK

 Frazzled wrote:
A cruiser is not exactly an escort. Escorts are smaller ships to hold off fighters. You never see them with Omegas.

Indeed, I'd class that more as a battlegroup, not Omega + escort.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
A cruiser is not exactly an escort. Escorts are smaller ships to hold off fighters. You never see them with Omegas.

Indeed, I'd class that more as a battlegroup, not Omega + escort.

Exactly, as in ships of the line. Escorts would be smaller ships screening, again like classical destroyers.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where are you getting the 2 meg bomb?

The show states that the standard Model 501/6 Mk XI Thermonuclear Charge has a yield of 2 Megatons.

The episode DID NOT state how many went off (watched it Sunday for grins).

I know, I'm on your side. Just showing where he may have gotten the number from.

Coolio and I accept your statement on the nuke size.

The B5 wiki even states that the Drala Fi took at least two blasts, citing the movie In The Beginning as the evidence. So it took near 4 megatons to completely obliterate a single Minbari Sharlin.

Cuda, I think you've got a lot more homework to do before you can really nail this one.

Looks like you are partially right on this one. I re-watched the video of this fight There were only 3 nukes total, one was listed as not being in range. It looks like the first nuke that went off caused some damage, but not nearly as much as the 2nd. Even if it caused as much as possible we are still only looking at a maximum of 1-megaton hits per nuke though, due to Newton's laws. Even then that would only happen if the bomb was incased in a giant pipe, shooting an asteroid out of each end. A majority of that energy actually spilled out in directions that never touched the ship at all.

Per Nasa's Nuclear Weapon Effects in Space:

If a nuclear weapon is exploded in a vacuum-i. e., in space-the complexion of weapon effects changes drastically:

First, in the absence of an atmosphere, blast disappears completely.

Second, thermal radiation, as usually defined, also disappears. There is no longer any air for the blast wave to heat and much higher frequency radiation is emitted from the weapon itself.

Third, in the absence of the atmosphere, nuclear radiation will suffer no physical attenuation and the only degradation in intensity will arise from reduction with distance. As a result the range of significant dosages will be many times greater than is the case at sea level.

Figure 2 shows the dosage-distance relationship for a 20-kiloton explosion when the burst takes place at sea level and when the burst takes place in space. We see that in the range 500 to 5,000 roentgens the space radii are of the order of 8 to 17 times as large as the sea-level radii. At lower dosages the difference between the two cases becomes even larger.

A yield of 20 kilotons has been used here as an example to show the dominance of nuclear radiation effects in space; however, it may well be that multimegaton warheads, rather than 20-kiloton warheads, will be far more representative of space defense applications. With such weapons the lethal radii (from nuclear radiation) in space may be of the order of hundreds of miles. The meaning of such huge lethal radii in possible future space warfare cannot now be assessed. It does seem clear, however, that manned space combat vehicles, unless heavy shielding is feasible, will be considerably more vulnerable to nuclear defense weapons than their unmanned counterparts.

Bolded the most important part.

Basically, NASA states that Nuclear weapons in space are really only useful in so far as killing crews with radiation, ships themselves are pretty much safe. However, the range of that radiation is magnified exponentially due to lack of atmosphere.

So, calculating anything based off of what we see on screen is destined to fail anyway.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Per Nasa's Nuclear Weapon Effects in Space:

If a nuclear weapon is exploded in a vacuum-i. e., in space-the complexion of weapon effects changes drastically:

First, in the absence of an atmosphere, blast disappears completely.

Second, thermal radiation, as usually defined, also disappears. There is no longer any air for the blast wave to heat and much higher frequency radiation is emitted from the weapon itself.

Third, in the absence of the atmosphere, nuclear radiation will suffer no physical attenuation and the only degradation in intensity will arise from reduction with distance. As a result the range of significant dosages will be many times greater than is the case at sea level.

A yield of 20 kilotons has been used here as an example to show the dominance of nuclear radiation effects in space; however, it may well be that multimegaton warheads, rather than 20-kiloton warheads, will be far more representative of space defense applications. With such weapons the lethal radii (from nuclear radiation) in space may be of the order of hundreds of miles. The meaning of such huge lethal radii in possible future space warfare cannot now be assessed. It does seem clear, however, that manned space combat vehicles, unless heavy shielding is feasible, will be considerably more vulnerable to nuclear defense weapons than their unmanned counterparts.

Point-blank explosions however actually CAN cause damage from concussion as it uses the target itself as the media to which the force is transferred. In other words it rips the target in two. The same is true of heat transfer. However, these two would be at significantly lower levels than in an actual atmosphere.

I even brought this very topic up in a previous post, in which I explained that the best way to transfer that shockwave would have been to shoot half of the asteroid the nuke was sitting on in one direction, while the other half went directly into the ship.

I realize that using real-world physics in space-opera analysis is a bit silly. However it is all I really have to go on when comparing two different shows.

 cuda1179 wrote:
The Omegas were specifically redesigned to counter this. They have been noted as the first human made vessels able to track and target lock a Minbari vessel.

That's news to me.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Point-blank explosions however actually CAN cause damage from concussion as it uses the target itself as the media to which the force is transferred. In other words it rips the target in two. The same is true of heat transfer. However, these two would be at significantly lower levels than in an actual atmosphere.

At that point, you may as well strap engines to the asteroid and launch it that way. It'd probably be more accurate.

squidhills wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
The Omegas were specifically redesigned to counter this. They have been noted as the first human made vessels able to track and target lock a Minbari vessel.

That's news to me.

There is some semi-cannon fluff on this. Although noted as being able to preform a target lock, as I stated, there is a B5 tech manual that states that basically it's hit or miss. It's definitely better than shooting in the dark, but still not 100% as good as when shooting at other race's vessels.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Much as I hate to admit it - a Vorlon Cruiser seems to "parry" a Shadow beam with its own weapon in Interludes and Examinations...............

Vorlons are actually several steps above the Shadows in terms of the ships seen on screen. Indeed we see the same Vorlon heavy cruiser fired upon twice by Shadow cruisers- once to no effect at all and the second time, when the shields are penetrated (yes, Vorlons have shields!) to do nothing more than gouge the lower right lightning cannon prong. Mind you that prong keeps functioning where the same kind of weapon literally cuts other capital ships in half. Vorlon ships, which carry actual Vorlons (as opposed to the expendable Shadow ships which don't carry Shadows) are absurdly tough. I'm pretty sure that outside of the planet killer we never actually see a Vorlon capital ship destroyed.

It's also worth noting that the Shadow ships are incredibly durable but due to being able to absorb, store and bleed off energy. When they are 'gripped' by a telepath that ability (along with the ability to do much of anything) is switched off. With the ability functioning as normal they are phenomenally tough. Beam weapons (which are a distinct class from Pulse) cannot be intercepted. Think of pulse weapons like a 40K plasma gun- packets of energy bound together by some means that explode upon impact. That impact could be the hull of a ship or it could be the flak of an interceptor shell.

Lastly Omega's were designed to kick any ass they came up against true- but no Younger Race tech vessel ever defeated the Mimbari jammers. :(

But we're back wondering how well those Omega heavy lasers will penetrate BSG armour and there is just no way to know. I'd hazard a guess that the EA crew would be smart enough to look at the Galactica and target the huge frontal sections bereft of armour, which is another thing to consider.


I know it never comes up in the show but Galactica is missing *massive* amounts of it's hull plating (to say nothing of its armament!) from when we see it in Blood and Chrome first being put into service, when it is a brand new ship. That *should* have been an issue in the series but it wasn't. I doubt the EA would be so kind on them as the writers were. While I'm not sure how well the armoured sections would hold up to heavy EA lasers I'm reasonably certain the unarmoured sections- of which there are many- will not hold up well.

That is another rather interesting point- none of the Battlestars we see in action in BSG are anywhere close to their full potential. Pegasus has suffered serious computer damage, and is not equipped with Galactica's robust computer-less data systems. Galactica begins the series in terrible shape and just gets worse.

An analysis must not just strip away the plot armor, but upscale the Galactica's abilities to its optimal state. Imagine only ever seeing Arnold in The Last Stand, and trying to imagine how he'd do wrestling The Rock in their primes- without seeing Conan the Barbarian.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Much as I hate to admit it - a Vorlon Cruiser seems to "parry" a Shadow beam with its own weapon in Interludes and Examinations...............

Vorlons are actually several steps above the Shadows in terms of the ships seen on screen. Indeed we see the same Vorlon heavy cruiser fired upon twice by Shadow cruisers- once to no effect at all and the second time, when the shields are penetrated (yes, Vorlons have shields!) to do nothing more than gouge the lower right lightning cannon prong. Mind you that prong keeps functioning where the same kind of weapon literally cuts other capital ships in half. Vorlon ships, which carry actual Vorlons (as opposed to the expendable Shadow ships which don't carry Shadows) are absurdly tough. I'm pretty sure that outside of the planet killer we never actually see a Vorlon capital ship destroyed.

It's also worth noting that the Shadow ships are incredibly durable but due to being able to absorb, store and bleed off energy. When they are 'gripped' by a telepath that ability (along with the ability to do much of anything) is switched off. With the ability functioning as normal they are phenomenally tough. Beam weapons (which are a distinct class from Pulse) cannot be intercepted. Think of pulse weapons like a 40K plasma gun- packets of energy bound together by some means that explode upon impact. That impact could be the hull of a ship or it could be the flak of an interceptor shell.

Lastly Omega's were designed to kick any ass they came up against true- but no Younger Race tech vessel ever defeated the Mimbari jammers. :(

But we're back wondering how well those Omega heavy lasers will penetrate BSG armour and there is just no way to know. I'd hazard a guess that the EA crew would be smart enough to look at the Galactica and target the huge frontal sections bereft of armour, which is another thing to consider.


I know it never comes up in the show but Galactica is missing *massive* amounts of it's hull plating (to say nothing of its armament!) from when we see it in Blood and Chrome first being put into service, when it is a brand new ship. That *should* have been an issue in the series but it wasn't. I doubt the EA would be so kind on them as the writers were. While I'm not sure how well the armoured sections would hold up to heavy EA lasers I'm reasonably certain the unarmoured sections- of which there are many- will not hold up well.

I missed out on a majority of Blood and Chrome. Wow, Galacitca sure looks different, and beautiful.

I do REALLY hate to point this out, but there was an instance in B5 where a beam weapon got intercepted. In "a Call to Arms" a Victory Class Destroyer's main weapon (the most bad-ass weapon on any non-ancient vessel) is even intercepted. I admit this was done by throwing a small ship in front of it suicide-style, but the diameter of the beam was as large as the ship.

On a side note, Conan-esk Arnold would kick the crap out of the Rock. Although, I'd sure love to see the Rock to a Rock Bottom on him.

 cuda1179 wrote:

I do REALLY hate to point this out, but there was an instance in B5 where a beam weapon got intercepted. In "a Call to Arms" a Victory Class Destroyer's main weapon (the most bad-ass weapon on any non-ancient vessel) is even intercepted. I admit this was done by throwing a small ship in front of it suicide-style, but the diameter of the beam was as large as the ship.

When I say intercepted, I mean by an E-Web, more commonly called interceptors. They're the B5 version of flak cannons and attacks with a physical component- like pulses or kinetic weapons- can be destroyed by them. Sorta like the Phallanx system on a carrier. What you're talking about isn't an interception per se but would be the equivalent of stopping a harpoon missile by parking an escort next to your carrier. You can call it missile defence but I don't expect it to catch on

But you're right, Galactica is a very pretty ship in it's heyday. You can clearly see how much weaponry it has lost on top of its hull. :(

 Kojiro wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Much as I hate to admit it - a Vorlon Cruiser seems to "parry" a Shadow beam with its own weapon in Interludes and Examinations...............

Vorlons are actually several steps above the Shadows in terms of the ships seen on screen. Indeed we see the same Vorlon heavy cruiser fired upon twice by Shadow cruisers- once to no effect at all and the second time, when the shields are penetrated (yes, Vorlons have shields!) to do nothing more than gouge the lower right lightning cannon prong. Mind you that prong keeps functioning where the same kind of weapon literally cuts other capital ships in half. Vorlon ships, which carry actual Vorlons (as opposed to the expendable Shadow ships which don't carry Shadows) are absurdly tough. I'm pretty sure that outside of the planet killer we never actually see a Vorlon capital ship destroyed.

It's also worth noting that the Shadow ships are incredibly durable but due to being able to absorb, store and bleed off energy. When they are 'gripped' by a telepath that ability (along with the ability to do much of anything) is switched off. With the ability functioning as normal they are phenomenally tough. Beam weapons (which are a distinct class from Pulse) cannot be intercepted. Think of pulse weapons like a 40K plasma gun- packets of energy bound together by some means that explode upon impact. That impact could be the hull of a ship or it could be the flak of an interceptor shell.

Lastly Omega's were designed to kick any ass they came up against true- but no Younger Race tech vessel ever defeated the Mimbari jammers. :(

But we're back wondering how well those Omega heavy lasers will penetrate BSG armour and there is just no way to know. I'd hazard a guess that the EA crew would be smart enough to look at the Galactica and target the huge frontal sections bereft of armour, which is another thing to consider.


I know it never comes up in the show but Galactica is missing *massive* amounts of it's hull plating (to say nothing of its armament!) from when we see it in Blood and Chrome first being put into service, when it is a brand new ship. That *should* have been an issue in the series but it wasn't. I doubt the EA would be so kind on them as the writers were. While I'm not sure how well the armoured sections would hold up to heavy EA lasers I'm reasonably certain the unarmoured sections- of which there are many- will not hold up well.

WOW! I never noticed that. I thought the grill work was just the design of the ship, not that its effectively had major portions scrapped.

 Frazzled wrote:
WOW! I never noticed that. I thought the grill work was just the design of the ship, not that its effectively had major portions scrapped.

Yeah it is rather a shock but it *was* in the process of being decommissioned turned into a museum. All those missing weapons and armour seem like they really *should* have made an impact. Makes you wonder again how a much a fully operational battlestar would have performed in the show. Unfortunately it also highlights just how seemingly paper thin Pegasus seems to be. :(

Incidentally if anyone's wondering if that is indeed the Galactica, the writing on the launch bay is almost discernible but '75' is clearly visible on the hull. 75 of course is the number designation of Galactica.