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The rule in no sense makes you into Troops. It never has.

You claim objectives as if you were troops. Thats it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rule in no sense makes you into Troops. It never has.

You claim objectives as if you were troops. Thats it.

And Troops of course claim objectives just like any other unit.

Fragile wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

As to the question:
I believe that means the unit has Objective Secured as long as you use a Detachment that has the ObSec rule.

No, the Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) does not give them the ObSec rule.

It just says "can claim objectives as if they were Troops". It does not make them troops

Just like it could say "can claim objectives as if they were Vehicles". It would not make your unit a vehicle.

If they claim like troops, then they claim exactly like the enemy troops in a CAD, which is with ObSec.

I don't see CAD mentioned anywhere in the rule. Why would they claim like enemy troops in a CAD instead of like enemy troops in a formation (which is without ObSec)?

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rule in no sense makes you into Troops. It never has.

You claim objectives as if you were troops. Thats it.

And Troops of course claim objectives just like any other unit.

Although if the said unit is in a CAD, they would score like those Troops of the CAD?

IE They never become Troops or have the ObSec USR, but they score "as if" they had ObSec.

Although if the said unit is in a CAD, they would score like those Troops of the CAD? 

Unfortunately not because claiming like troops with ObSec doesn't mean claiming with ObSec. ObSec is a USR that effects how units deny objectives and nothing in "claiming as if they were troops" states they get any Troop USRs just they claim objectives by being within 3" of them just like troops do.

 Happyjew wrote:
[

I don't see CAD mentioned anywhere in the rule. Why would they claim like enemy troops in a CAD instead of like enemy troops in a formation (which is without ObSec)?

The debate was concerning Troops in a CAD which I mentioned again since someone would bring it up. If your in a GK CAD and your using GM, then your units will claim objectives like Troops (meaning they will have ObSec.) If your in Unbound, etc that does not gain ObSec, then GM will serve little purpose.

But it still doesn't suggest that they score like YOUR troops meaning your CAD has nothing to do with it.

 Desubot wrote:
But it still doesn't suggest that they score like YOUR troops meaning your CAD has nothing to do with it.

Then if they dont score as my Troops, a rule has been broken.

It hasn't as all troop score still. even without OS

 Desubot wrote:
It hasn't as all troop score still. even without OS

True, but irrelevant.

Fragile wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
But it still doesn't suggest that they score like YOUR troops meaning your CAD has nothing to do with it.

Then if they dont score as my Troops, a rule has been broken.

What rule has been broken?

The rule is simple. They score like Troops. How do Troops score? By being within 3" of an objective.

It does not say they score like Troops in your army. It does not say they score like Troops in a CAD. Simply that they score like Troops.


And yes I know it technically says they "claim objectives as if they were Troops."

Also claim objectives like troops in a CAD does not necessarily mean has ObSec. No one has shown it does they claim it and repeat it over and over.

"Claim Objectives as if they were Troops" means being within 3" of an objective. Nothing more.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Although if the said unit is in a CAD, they would score like those Troops of the CAD? 

Unfortunately not because claiming like troops with ObSec doesn't mean claiming with ObSec. ObSec is a USR that effects how units deny objectives and nothing in "claiming as if they were troops" states they get any Troop USRs just they claim objectives by being within 3" of them just like troops do.

The problem with that is that there is no such thing as "Claiming".

Most here are assuming (as i now do) that it can only mean "can control objectives as if they were Troops". How exactly do Troops in a CAD control objectives? With ObSec.
As i said they never actually get the USR, but they behave "as if" they had it.

The second argument is: would that rule have any purpose otherwise?
IE
A) Simply Ignore this special rule altogether
B) It must interact with ObSec in some way

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Although if the said unit is in a CAD, they would score like those Troops of the CAD? 

Unfortunately not because claiming like troops with ObSec doesn't mean claiming with ObSec. ObSec is a USR that effects how units deny objectives and nothing in "claiming as if they were troops" states they get any Troop USRs just they claim objectives by being within 3" of them just like troops do.

The problem with that is that there is no such thing as "Claiming".

Most here are assuming (as i now do) that it can only mean "can control objectives as if they were Troops". How exactly do Troops in a CAD control objectives? With ObSec.
As i said they never actually get the USR, but they behave "as if" they had it.

The second argument is: would that rule have any purpose otherwise?
IE
A) Simply Ignore this special rule altogether
B) It must interact with ObSec in some way

Yes the rule clearly does nothing in 7th Ed. This happens frequently with older codexes when rules change. Note how ither similar rules that are intended to still have an effect have been FAQ'd in 7th to supply ObSec. This has not because they clearly do not intend for it to supply ObSec. There are only a few very specific ways to get ObSec and this rule makes no mention of it so does not supply that USR.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes the rule clearly does nothing in 7th Ed. This happens frequently with older codexes when rules change. Note how ither similar rules that are intended to still have an effect have been FAQ'd in 7th to supply ObSec. This has not because they clearly do not intend for it to supply ObSec. There are only a few very specific ways to get ObSec and this rule makes no mention of it so does not supply that USR.

Have you got precedence for "have been FAQ'd in 7th to supply ObSec"? I only know of Codex:Inquisition also having issues (Coteaz) and don't remember them FAQing it?

I fully agree that it does not supply ObSec USR.
But i also think that they left it "un-FAQed" because it works currently? Why FaQ something that works? Rather than a deliberate omission because it doesn't. Only GW could answer that one....

The only thing of the top of my head where something scores like troop while not being troop is SM: Pedro and they straight up made him give out OS to "Crimson fist" sternguard marines

Yeah Pedro Kantor had an FAQ to change scoring to ObSec for Sternguard.

Well they've sorted 1 rule and ignored Coteaz (Codex: I) and Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil).

Deliberate? we both agree on yes, but disagree on why (Useless V it's working). If it was useless i'd just think they would FaQ it in the same way they did the Space Wolves Codex (saying this before next Saturday) and how they removed the Psychic powers completely.... Which is why i'm currently leaning on option 2. rather than 1.

They removed all book powers for a reason. Frequently rules become redundant in new editions and rarely do they get FAQ'd. Nothing in UA states that you get any USRs so you don't.

 FlingitNow wrote:
They removed all book powers for a reason. Frequently rules become redundant in new editions and rarely do they get FAQ'd. Nothing in UA states that you get any USRs so you don't.

Because it was written for 5th, not the hypothetical 7th at the time in which everything scored.

The ability was mainly so that a very low model count army had a chance in objective based games.

But I know HIWP, and how my local shop would be doing it. But was interested in the conversation when I made the thread

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
But it still doesn't suggest that they score like YOUR troops meaning your CAD has nothing to do with it.

Then if they dont score as my Troops, a rule has been broken.

What rule has been broken?

The rule is simple. They score like Troops. How do Troops score? By being within 3" of an objective.

It does not say they score like Troops in your army. It does not say they score like Troops in a CAD. Simply that they score like Troops.


And yes I know it technically says they "claim objectives as if they were Troops."

3". You mean just like anything else including themselves? Nope. The rule clearly differentiates between Troops and whatever role the unit has. That difference is ObSec.

They cant be both?

It still doesn't break the rule even if its redundant.

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
But it still doesn't suggest that they score like YOUR troops meaning your CAD has nothing to do with it.

Then if they dont score as my Troops, a rule has been broken.

What rule has been broken?

The rule is simple. They score like Troops. How do Troops score? By being within 3" of an objective.

It does not say they score like Troops in your army. It does not say they score like Troops in a CAD. Simply that they score like Troops.


And yes I know it technically says they "claim objectives as if they were Troops."

3". You mean just like anything else including themselves? Nope. The rule clearly differentiates between Troops and whatever role the unit has. That difference is ObSec.

You keep claiming ObSec. However, not all Troops claim objectives via ObSec. Therefore, ObSec cannot be true, unless you have something proving otherwise?

And claiming that CAD Troops have ObSec doesn't prove anything.


Currently this rule (like some others from older editions) does nothing.

 Happyjew wrote:


You keep claiming ObSec. However, not all Troops claim objectives via ObSec. Therefore, ObSec cannot be true, unless you have something proving otherwise?
.

Can you give some examples ?

Examples of Troops not claiming via ObSec?

Certainly. Any Troops that does not come from a Detachment with the Command Benefit "Objective Secured".

This would include things like the various Tyranid formations from Rising Leviathan, or more recently an Ork Warband from C: Orks.

Fragile,
Like any Troop not selected for part of a Detachment with the Objective Secured Command Benefit...?

Sorry HappyJew,
I should of let you answer and you got in first for any case... but the question seemed a little unusual, enough that caused me a moments pause.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
They removed all book powers for a reason. Frequently rules become redundant in new editions and rarely do they get FAQ'd. Nothing in UA states that you get any USRs so you don't.

Because it was written for 5th, not the hypothetical 7th at the time in which everything scored.

The ability was mainly so that a very low model count army had a chance in objective based games.

But I know HIWP, and how my local shop would be doing it. But was interested in the conversation when I made the thread

Yes it was written for 5th, if they wanted it to change to give ObSec in 7th they would have FAQ'd it like they did for Pedro Kantors similar rule. The rule does nothing now as all it does is give units an ability that they already possess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


You keep claiming ObSec. However, not all Troops claim objectives via ObSec. Therefore, ObSec cannot be true, unless you have something proving otherwise?
.

Can you give some examples ?

There are currently only 4 ways of getting ObSec that I am aware of and only half of them apply to troops:

Troops selected as part of a CAD
Troops selected as part of an Allied Detachment
Sternguard selected in the same Detachment as Pedro Kantor
Gargoyles selected in a Skyblight Formation.

The idea that ObSec is some particular to troops is false, even the idea that all troops get it is demonstrably false. It is a USR that is available to certain units in certain situations that effects how the enemy denies them objectives, that is all.

 Happyjew wrote:
Examples of Troops not claiming via ObSec?

Certainly. Any Troops that does not come from a Detachment with the Command Benefit "Objective Secured".

This would include things like the various Tyranid formations from Rising Leviathan, or more recently an Ork Warband from C: Orks.

So despite the fact we are talking about a cad, your giving examples outside that cad.

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Examples of Troops not claiming via ObSec?

Certainly. Any Troops that does not come from a Detachment with the Command Benefit "Objective Secured".

This would include things like the various Tyranid formations from Rising Leviathan, or more recently an Ork Warband from C: Orks.

So despite the fact we are talking about a cad, your giving examples outside that cad.

Why does the detachment matter? The rule makes no mention of detachments, armies, or special rules. The burden is on you to prove that they get ObSec.

[user]

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Examples of Troops not claiming via ObSec?

Certainly. Any Troops that does not come from a Detachment with the Command Benefit "Objective Secured".

This would include things like the various Tyranid formations from Rising Leviathan, or more recently an Ork Warband from C: Orks.

So despite the fact we are talking about a cad, your giving examples outside that cad.

Cool troops in a CAD gain a USR. No mention in UA of anyone gaining any USRs. So what is your point?