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 Cheexsta wrote:
ObSec states:

"All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule..."

Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) states:

"The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were Troops."

So, Troops units gain ObSec - that much is clear.

As Flingitnow states, the wording is quite clear:
They don't simply "have ObSec", they "claim as ObSec"

So indeed they do not "Deny as ObSec".

The next question is: Did they used to deny even in 6th? from the wording it seems not?
Just like the "Big guns never tire" argument / situation...

They never had to (in 6th). all units denied besides vehicles. (and specific other types n stuff)

No: did the Grey knights with Unyielding Anvil deny from other troops?

Ed: because from the wording it seems not...?

A GK with Unyielding Anvil did deny from other troops as there was no such thing as super objective secured in 6th besides nids formation for like a few months.

Oh i see: how all units denied anyway.

So even without Unyielding Anvil, the unit would deny. But with it, it could also claim. So no issue in 6th...

But i would stand by my point for 7th: even though Unyielding Anvil lets them claim, it has no mention of them denying like ObSec does (and even if they claim like the Rules, they don't HAVE the rule)

What about a GK Dread in 6th with UA. Not that it's massively relevant.

The issue is people have failed to even prove:
ObSec = how troops claim objectives.

ObSec is a USR that impacts on how units deny that is all.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What about a GK Dread in 6th with UA. Not that it's massively relevant.

The issue is people have failed to even prove:
ObSec = how troops claim objectives.

ObSec is a USR that impacts on how units deny that is all.

DreadKnight or Dreadnaught? Couldnt put it on DK's in 6ths since they were characters.

ObSec is a rule that describes how troops that qualify to receive the command benefit deny and score. What are you looking for proof of, how ObSec works? The scenario was already laid out (even with your constant moving of the goalposts and obtuseness) in which the army in question has troops that are ObSec, thus UA would make the rest of the army "Score like Troops" in which the troops in the army have ObSec.

Prove why in this situation, the only specific situation I care about since this is the only way I run my GK lists, why UA wouldnt give ObSec. Which you havent yet, which you constantly misdirect against.

Wren - the injunction is on ICs, NOT characters. In sixth you could still put it on knights

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wren - the injunction is on ICs, NOT characters. In sixth you could still put it on knights

Hmm thanks, I must have misread it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What about a GK Dread in 6th with UA. Not that it's massively relevant.

The issue is people have failed to even prove:
ObSec = how troops claim objectives.

ObSec is a USR that impacts on how units deny that is all.

"nominated units claim objectives as if they were Troops."

"All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule"

It doesn't get much clearer than that. They are treated as Troops. Troops have ObSec.

Fragile wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
What about a GK Dread in 6th with UA. Not that it's massively relevant.

The issue is people have failed to even prove:
ObSec = how troops claim objectives.

ObSec is a USR that impacts on how units deny that is all.

"nominated units claim objectives as if they were Troops."

"All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule"

It doesn't get much clearer than that. They are treated as Troops. Troops have ObSec.

They are never treated as Troops. They claim as Troops. Very different. They do not "get" ObSec, they just claim like it.

This means that they "controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range" but if a unit with ObSec arrives "unless the enemy unit also has this special rule" applies: Does Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) give ObSec? No

If they claim as troops then they claim with objective secured. Otherwise you are violating the rule.

Indeed they do! They claim with ObSec, as i said.

But do they have the ObSec USR in their profile?
Does Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) say they have ObSec, has it been FAQed to give them the Special Rule?

Answer that and you will know if Troops that actually have the rule will care about"unless the enemy unit also has this special rule"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To make it clear and simple:

A unit with Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) will "controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range".

But a unit with ObSec will "controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range" from them, because they do not have the rule.

IE Standard < Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) < ObSec

Since when do you ever get half a rule? It either has ObSec or it doesnt, it doesnt get half of ObSec

Because it only claims objectives like they have the rule, not denies objectives like it.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Because it only claims objectives like they have the rule, not denies objectives like it.

Scoring "like troops" would also imply that they also deny as such. The rule wouldnt work if they only got half the benefit of ObSec.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Because it only claims objectives like they have the rule, not denies objectives like it.

Scoring "like troops" would also imply that they also deny as such. The rule wouldnt work if they only got half the benefit of ObSec.

Except it doesn't say "scoring", it says they "claim objectives" like troops.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Because it only claims objectives like they have the rule, not denies objectives like it.

Scoring "like troops" would also imply that they also deny as such. The rule wouldnt work if they only got half the benefit of ObSec.

Except it doesn't say "scoring", it says they "claim objectives" like troops.

Claiming objectives I would think is more encompassing than just scoring, units with ObSec claim objectives by their scoring and denial rules. Both parts describe how a unit with this rule 'claims objectives'

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Because it only claims objectives like they have the rule, not denies objectives like it.

But you cannot claim Objective Markers, you can only Control them according to 'Controlling Objective Markers' from the BRB.
You focus too much on your interpretation of the word 'claim' when the BRB doesn't even speak about 'claiming an objective'.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Troops in your primary detatchment for your primary faction are ObSec though, and the units i noted are from the primary detatchment and primary faction.

Instead of fighting over and over, one could also explain why your statement is wrong.

Troops in a Combined Arms Detachment and Allied Detachment have Objective Secured.
A Waaagh!-Detachment or a formation could also be your Primary Detachment and in that case troops would not have Objective Secured.
You did not specifically mention you were using a Combined Arms Detachment That's all.

There is a lot of confusion on how Detachments and such work, I'm really planning on writing a guide for that with a FAQ or something.
One of the biggest 'mistakes' is people confusing Allies and allies.

As to the question:
I believe that means the unit has Objective Secured as long as you use a Detachment that has the ObSec rule.

Kangodo wrote:

As to the question:
I believe that means the unit has Objective Secured as long as you use a Detachment that has the ObSec rule.

No, the Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) does not give them the ObSec rule.

It just says "can claim objectives as if they were Troops". It does not make them troops

Just like it could say "can claim objectives as if they were Vehicles". It would not make your unit a vehicle.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

As to the question:
I believe that means the unit has Objective Secured as long as you use a Detachment that has the ObSec rule.

No, the Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) does not give them the ObSec rule.

It just says "can claim objectives as if they were Troops". It does not make them troops

Just like it could say "can claim objectives as if they were Vehicles". It would not make your unit a vehicle.

But to claim objectives as troops in this specific list, they would have to have ObSec, or else they wouldnt be 'claiming as if they were troops"

If you really want to get down to it

anvil doesn't state that they claim like troops from your detachment which means they can score like troops from a non BF list

Its the issue of applying 5th edition logic to 7th edition.

There was no such thing as super securing objectives back then.

and besides SM Pedro who had to have to have his version completely changed to OS means they ether forgot or intended it not to work.

ObSec states:
"All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule"

Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) states:
"The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were Troops."


It's easy: they do everything exactly like if they had the ObSec Special Rule. But they don't actually have that Rule at all.

So it comes down to how ObSec is worded.

If ObSec was worded: "A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, and denies is from other units with the rule"
Then they would deny it from other Troops.
But it doesn't, it says: "unless the enemy unit also has this special rule".
And they do not.

That post makes absolutely no sense

Maybe pretty colors will help:

Grey knights units play as if they had this rule (but don't have it):
"A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule"

Enemy Troops have the ObSec Rule:
"A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule"

Both of them can do the orange fine, but Grey Knights have to follow the Green part too.

The enemy does not have to follow the green part because even if the Grey Knight follow the rule, they don't have it.

pm713 wrote:
I would say you score like Troops. Troops have Objective Secured. Therefore everything involved as Objective Secured.

Assuming you're Battle Forged of course.

I'd also give you Objective Secured as above.

 kronk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would say you score like Troops. Troops have Objective Secured. Therefore everything involved as Objective Secured.

Assuming you're Battle Forged of course.

I'd also give you Objective Secured as above.

HIWPI, i'd also let you have Objective Secured.

RaW: you're just one step below.

"Have you even read the thread?" Wow I like the condescending tone I thought they looked down on that here,

 BlackTalos wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

As to the question:
I believe that means the unit has Objective Secured as long as you use a Detachment that has the ObSec rule.

No, the Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) does not give them the ObSec rule.

It just says "can claim objectives as if they were Troops". It does not make them troops

Just like it could say "can claim objectives as if they were Vehicles". It would not make your unit a vehicle.

If they claim like troops, then they claim exactly like the enemy troops in a CAD, which is with ObSec.

If I take a formation with troops units in it, do they have ObSec? They are treated as having the same battlefield role, so they're troops. But do they have ObSec?

Do summoned daemons have ObSec?

The answer is generally no in these cases, because they didn't come from the troop force org slot in your army list.

I think the grand strategy rule makes you count as troops, so in missions like big guns never tire, you can make a HS into a troop so it no longer gives up extra points. I don't think it grants units ObSec.