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Assume for this question that I'm building a Battle-Forged list with Grey Knights as my Primary detachment.

Per the GK Codex, the Item in question I'm asking about is Unyielding Anvil.

Unyielding Anvil: A key position must be seized for victory to be won. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were Troops

I have a squad of Interceptors, they are Fast Attack. Should all above be true (BF list, GK Primary), per the Unyielding Anvil rules noted above, would Interceptors have Objective Secured as, Troops in Battleforged lists have Objective Secured for at least your Primary detachment. As they are in my primary army (GK) and now "claim as if they were Troops", would that give them Objective Secured?

Curious as how this would be ruled.

But only troops get objective secured

does it make em troops? like coteaz?

 Desubot wrote:
But only troops get objective secured

does it make em troops? like coteaz?

It makes them score like Troops, and Troops have Objective Secured in Battle Forged lists. Yes the FAQ missed this issue as the old way the rule worked is now useless as everything scores.

But not all troops have OS

 Desubot wrote:
But not all troops have OS

True, but the ones in my specific scenario do which is what I'm asking about. Not interested in scenarios on where troop arent OS, which is why I worded my scenario as it is

I would say you score like Troops. Troops have Objective Secured. Therefore everything involved as Objective Secured.

Assuming you're Battle Forged of course.

But the issue is it doesn't make them troops nothing states that if you are like them you get there special rules.

anyway it becomes a circular argument at this point and IIRC there was giant thread with the same issue

HIWPI : Like doesn't confer a USR that only applies to that FOC.

 Desubot wrote:
But the issue is it doesn't make them troops nothing states that if you are like them you get there special rules.

If that were an accurate statement, then Grand Mastery wouldnt have worked last edition either as only troops could score, which was a URS for troops.

It makes them score like Troops, and Troops have Objective Secured in Battle Forged lists. Yes the FAQ missed this issue as the old way the rule worked is now useless as everything scores.

The underlined is not true. That false premise is leading to a false conclusion. Troops are not scoring for all Battleforged forces which makes the statement "claim objectives as if they were Troops" pretty meaningless in the current edition.

Perhaps it's meant to do nothing now, perhaps it's meant to give ObSec but given that in the majority of detachments troops don't get ObSec it seems a bit of a stretch.

 FlingitNow wrote:

It makes them score like Troops, and Troops have Objective Secured in Battle Forged lists. Yes the FAQ missed this issue as the old way the rule worked is now useless as everything scores.

The underlined is not true. That false premise is leading to a false conclusion. Troops are not scoring for all Battleforged forces which makes the statement "claim objectives as if they were Troops" pretty meaningless in the current edition.

Perhaps it's meant to do nothing now, perhaps it's meant to give ObSec but given that in the majority of detachments troops don't get ObSec it seems a bit of a stretch.

Troops in your primary detatchment for your primary faction are ObSec though, and the units i noted are from the primary detatchment and primary faction.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

It makes them score like Troops, and Troops have Objective Secured in Battle Forged lists. Yes the FAQ missed this issue as the old way the rule worked is now useless as everything scores.

The underlined is not true. That false premise is leading to a false conclusion. Troops are not scoring for all Battleforged forces which makes the statement "claim objectives as if they were Troops" pretty meaningless in the current edition.

Perhaps it's meant to do nothing now, perhaps it's meant to give ObSec but given that in the majority of detachments troops don't get ObSec it seems a bit of a stretch.

Troops in your primary detatchment for your primary faction are ObSec though, and the units i noted are from the primary detatchment and primary faction.

No they aren't. Again you're making a false premise.

As a GK player, I have been asking myself this question as well.

I have to say, it doesn't make sense for Unyielding Anvil to do anything other than give the unit Objective Secured, since all units can "score" now.

That being said, GW did just update the FAQs and decided not to mention it. Oversight or intentional? Who knows with GW?

HIWPI, Unyielding Anvil grants Objective Secured.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

It makes them score like Troops, and Troops have Objective Secured in Battle Forged lists. Yes the FAQ missed this issue as the old way the rule worked is now useless as everything scores.

The underlined is not true. That false premise is leading to a false conclusion. Troops are not scoring for all Battleforged forces which makes the statement "claim objectives as if they were Troops" pretty meaningless in the current edition.

Perhaps it's meant to do nothing now, perhaps it's meant to give ObSec but given that in the majority of detachments troops don't get ObSec it seems a bit of a stretch.

Troops in your primary detatchment for your primary faction are ObSec though, and the units i noted are from the primary detatchment and primary faction.

No they aren't. Again you're making a false premise.

So nothing has ObSec then? Where in the rules are you getting your information from? Since you've now just ruled out all possibility of any unit of Troops gettin Ob Sec

Yes things have ObSec. Troops in a Combined Arms Detachment or Allied Detachment, or Gargoyles in a Skyblight Formation have ObSec and nothing else I am aware of has ObSec. Certainly by making a detachment your primary it doesn't gain ObSec on troops not sure why you think it would?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes things have ObSec. Troops in a Combined Arms Detachment or Allied Detachment, or Gargoyles in a Skyblight Formation have ObSec and nothing else I am aware of has ObSec. Certainly by making a detachment your primary it doesn't gain ObSec on troops not sure why you think it would?

Pedro's Sternguard have it. Though that seems to be the only example of one of the old "X is scoring" characters now granting ObSec. (Coteaz's rule is worded exactly like Pedro's but he didn't get the same ruling. Yay for consistency!)

Pretty sure I said my army was a combined arms detachment (battleforged)

Thats all I'm discussing.

You said battle forged which does not mean that the primary detachment is a CAD or indeed that the army contains a CAD at all. Granted currently the GKs have little choices for detachments, as is the for mist armies without a 7th Ed or late 6th Ed codex.

However your premise is that by default Troops have ObSec in a battleforged list which is not true, even for just the primary detachment. They may or may not have ObSec depending on how you've built your army and what you've selected as your primary.

So there is no default connection between troops and ObSec which means that Unyielding Anvil does nothing.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Pretty sure I said my army was a combined arms detachment (battleforged)

Thats all I'm discussing.

You were imprecise by saying the equivalent of "battleforged troops get OS", as they do not - only a battleforged army where the detachment rules grant OS to units, or the formation grants OS, would have troops with OS. Fling was correcting your incorrect statement.

However if you are in a detachment where your troops would get OS, or a formation with same, then any rule stating non-troops "score as if they were Troops" WOULD include OS, as that is how Troops frmo that detachment / formation would score.

As many have posted above, please take care with words, as Battle-Forged means a completely different thing to what Combined Arms Detachment means and to what Primary Detachment means.

You can be Battle-Forged with no CAD.
You can have CAD which are not Primary.
You can have a Primary and not be Battle-Forged.

However if you are in a detachment where your troops would get OS, or a formation with same, then any rule stating non-troops "score as if they were Troops" WOULD include OS, as that is how Troops frmo that detachment / formation would score.

Only if it said "score as if they were troops from that detachment". It doesn't it just says troops.

Troops have OS it makes them score like troops. What else would the ability do? Nothing?

 Mythra wrote:
Troops have OS it makes them score like troops. What else would the ability do? Nothing?

Troops don't always have ObSec though that is the point. Have you even read the thread?

Yes it looks like the rule does nothing. With a codex 2 editions out of date it is really surprising that some rules have become redundant?

Look at Pedro Kantor he made Sternguard score. However they Errata'd him to instead give ObSec, something they have chosen not to do here. Is the lack of Errata in this instance intentional or just another case of GW no longer caring about the quality of their FAQs? We don't know.

A Detachment with the Objective Secured Command Benefit, would allow Troops to have OS. For example in a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD).

If the Detachment in question did NOT have the OS Command Benefit, then "scoring like Troops" wouldn't do anything, as Troops score no better than any other unit.

Is OS scoring like troops or is OS a USR that impacts on how the enemy deny you?

ObSec states:

"All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule..."

Grand Strategy (Unyielding Anvil) states:

"The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were Troops."

So, Troops units gain ObSec - that much is clear.

The real question is: do units affected by Unyielding Anvil effectively become, or are treated as, Troops units at any point in the game?

The wording is ambiguous at best, but I would say that when/while the affected unit claims an objective, the rules simply treat it as a Troops unit. And since the unit is being treated as a Troops unit when/while claiming the objective, and it (in this instance) is part of a CAD or AD, it gains ObSec.

Likewise, when/while the unit is not claiming an objective, it is no longer doing anything as a Troops unit, so loses ObSec (not that it currently matters!).

It might not be the strongest RAW case ever, but I'd certainly be happy to play it this way - effectively treating the unit as Troops for all purposes while it controls an objective.

The wording is ambiguous at best, but I would say that when/while the affected unit claims an objective, the rules simply treat it as a Troops unit. And since the unit is being treated as a Troops unit when/while claiming the objective, and it (in this instance) is part of a CAD or AD, it gains ObSec. 

Likewise, when/while the unit is not claiming an objective, it is no longer doing anything as a Troops unit, so loses ObSec (not that it currently matters!). 

Actually it would matter it would mean they claim ObSec troops but wouldn't deny like ObSec troops. So they couldn't deny other ObSec troops but could not be denied by non-ObSec units by that interpretation.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The wording is ambiguous at best, but I would say that when/while the affected unit claims an objective, the rules simply treat it as a Troops unit. And since the unit is being treated as a Troops unit when/while claiming the objective, and it (in this instance) is part of a CAD or AD, it gains ObSec. 

Likewise, when/while the unit is not claiming an objective, it is no longer doing anything as a Troops unit, so loses ObSec (not that it currently matters!). 

Actually it would matter it would mean they claim ObSec troops but wouldn't deny like ObSec troops. So they couldn't deny other ObSec troops but could not be denied by non-ObSec units by that interpretation.

The Unyielding Anvil units not being able to deny other ObSec troops makes sense to me from a rules perspective - if the enemy is already claiming the objective, the Unyielding Anvil unit can't claim the objective in order to trigger the ObSec rule. Makes it into a kind of semi-super-scoring ability.

But I'm not sure how you get to the interpretation that an Unyielding Anvil unit that is claiming an objective can't be denied. If an enemy ObSec unit moves in range, you have two opposing units with ObSec on the same objective, so neither controls it at that point. The Unyielding Anvil rule stops as it's no longer claiming an objective, so the enemy ObSec unit is left as being the only such unit in range and claims the objective.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The wording is ambiguous at best, but I would say that when/while the affected unit claims an objective, the rules simply treat it as a Troops unit. And since the unit is being treated as a Troops unit when/while claiming the objective, and it (in this instance) is part of a CAD or AD, it gains ObSec. 

Likewise, when/while the unit is not claiming an objective, it is no longer doing anything as a Troops unit, so loses ObSec (not that it currently matters!). 

Actually it would matter it would mean they claim ObSec troops but wouldn't deny like ObSec troops. So they couldn't deny other ObSec troops but could not be denied by non-ObSec units by that interpretation.

They would score/deny the same way. They are ObSec and have that rule the same as any other troop.

But I'm not sure how you get to the interpretation that an Unyielding Anvil unit that is claiming an objective can't be denied. If an enemy ObSec unit moves in range, you have two opposing units with ObSec on the same objective, so neither controls it at that point. The Unyielding Anvil rule stops as it's no longer claiming an objective, so the enemy ObSec unit is left as being the only such unit in range and claims the objective.

Sorry my post wasn't clear. I was saying they would claim like an ObSec unit but not deny like an ObSec unit under that interpretation. Though the world ends if 2 opposing UA units are within 3" of an objective.

They would score/deny the same way. They are ObSec and have that rule the same as any other troop.

Care for a rules quote to support that UA gives ObSec?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Pretty sure I said my army was a combined arms detachment (battleforged)

Thats all I'm discussing.

You were imprecise by saying the equivalent of "battleforged troops get OS", as they do not - only a battleforged army where the detachment rules grant OS to units, or the formation grants OS, would have troops with OS. Fling was correcting your incorrect statement.

However if you are in a detachment where your troops would get OS, or a formation with same, then any rule stating non-troops "score as if they were Troops" WOULD include OS, as that is how Troops frmo that detachment / formation would score.

Thanks Nos, the 2nd paragraph is what I was trying to get at. In a CAD detatchment list, where troops would get ObSec, I believe Unyielding Anvil would give ObSec.