Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 focusedfire wrote:
Hmm, you see while you and I agree that service industry workers should get at least min wage....from there our philosophies differ.

No our philosophies certainly do not differ. I'm in complete agreement with you, especially on a philosophical level. But realistically you have to agree that there are pushy (or at least manipulative) sales people out there, they do exist.

I don't know about where you live, but here in the UK we get a lot of these pushy charity people on the street. They try to get you to sign up for monthly donations via direct debt. Everyone hates them because they won't take a polite no for an answer (you have to be rude and push past them). But the charities still use them because (allegedly) they bring in more money than volunteers. If they make more sales and take more commission with that approach then obviously that will become the norm.

I agree with you that it might not be good for long term repeat business, but you would have to agree that not every company is interested in that. For example telesales companies are often just hired by the month to sell as much as they can before something new comes along. They couldn't care less about your long term happiness, once they've got their commission.

I worked in sales in my early twenties and the only people who didn't wash out were the sociopaths. I don't think you need to be a sociopath to be a salesman, but it helps, a lot, in the long run.

Yes indeedy I can vouch for that. Salesmen are a unique breed.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
You know, we have plent y of SCIENCE that says rewarding someone does not ensure better outcomes. In fact, it makes it worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candle_problem

Subjects who were offered no prize, termed low-drive, were told "We are doing pilot work on various problems in order to decide which will be the best ones to use in an experiment we plan to do later. We would like to obtain norms on the time needed to solve." The remaining subjects, termed high-drive, were told "Depending on how quickly you solve the problem you can win $5.00 or $20.00. The top 25% of the Ss [subjects] in your group will win $5.00 each; the best will receive $20.00. Time to solve will be the criterion used." (As a note, adjusting for inflation since 1962, the study's publish year, the amounts in today's dollars would be approximately $39 and $156, respectively.[7]) The empty-boxes condition was found to be easier than the filled-boxes condition: more subjects solved the problem, and those who did solve the problem solved it faster. Within the filled-boxes condition, high-drive subjects performed worse than low-drive subjects.

Therefore, screw tipping and just pay people and actual wage. Thanks.

Entire industries based on getting the deal done being commission based tell us otherwise.

Maybe you slept through the Great Recession and its causes. That tells us that entire industries based on commissisions tell us exactly what the Candle Experiment tells us.

But never argue with a Sicillian when Death is on the line!

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Never worked in the server industry myself, but as someone who eats out rather frequently it's obvious just how gakky and under-appreciated their jobs often are

I think everyone should have to.

And please, let's leave the underpaid and under appreciated arguments for teachers, fire fighters, and similar civil servants.

I use to sell funeral services and coffins door-to-door.

I quit when we had a sales meeting two days after 9/11 to talk about how we could integrate it into our sales pitch.

The best part was, after I walked out they still paind me a draw from about a month until they realized I wasn't coming back. Kind of a D move on my part, but.... meh.

 Smacks wrote:

 focusedfire wrote:
If you find yourself lying to and pushing/manipulating the customer then it is either you don't believe in the product or it is a personal character issue.

I can say categorically that I did not believe in the product. It was utter gak that no one wanted, but that was the job.

I think it's great what you do, admirable even, but it sounds like your product is 'good' and mostly sells itself. That's not really selling it's more supplying. Selling is convincing someone to buy something they would otherwise pass on (and trust me everything is a hard sell when you're cold calling). I agree it's not a nice business, and not something I enjoyed.

See, the products that I represent are not the problem that I have with my current job (I am a health insurance agent). It's more the things that I'm expected to do in order to get in front of people that I completely dislike. Ohh, and to talk about pressuring people into the sale... If you don't buy what I'm selling, at some point, YOU are breaking the law


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:


And please, let's leave the underpaid and under appreciated arguments for teachers, fire fighters, and similar civil servants.

Agreed... The only thing "under appreciated" about servers, is that when you get a really bad on, it makes you appreciate the good ones a tiny bit more when you get them.

 Easy E wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
You know, we have plent y of SCIENCE that says rewarding someone does not ensure better outcomes. In fact, it makes it worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candle_problem

Subjects who were offered no prize, termed low-drive, were told "We are doing pilot work on various problems in order to decide which will be the best ones to use in an experiment we plan to do later. We would like to obtain norms on the time needed to solve." The remaining subjects, termed high-drive, were told "Depending on how quickly you solve the problem you can win $5.00 or $20.00. The top 25% of the Ss [subjects] in your group will win $5.00 each; the best will receive $20.00. Time to solve will be the criterion used." (As a note, adjusting for inflation since 1962, the study's publish year, the amounts in today's dollars would be approximately $39 and $156, respectively.[7]) The empty-boxes condition was found to be easier than the filled-boxes condition: more subjects solved the problem, and those who did solve the problem solved it faster. Within the filled-boxes condition, high-drive subjects performed worse than low-drive subjects.

Therefore, screw tipping and just pay people and actual wage. Thanks.

Entire industries based on getting the deal done being commission based tell us otherwise.

Maybe you slept through the Great Recession and its causes. That tells us that entire industries based on commissisions tell us exactly what the Candle Experiment tells us.

But never argue with a Sicillian when Death is on the line!

It tells us they got rich and you didn't?

I forgot. I got mine is the only thing that matters. Damn the economy and the rest of you!



Yet again, we see that paying commissions and tips actual leads to worse behavior. This time Frazzled proved it. We didn;t even need SCIENCE!

 Easy E wrote:
I forgot. I got mine is the only thing that matters. Damn the economy and the rest of you!



Yet again, we see that paying commissions and tips actual leads to worse behavior. This time Frazzled proved it. We didn;t even need SCIENCE!

That is only true if you assume everyone is equal and motivated to perform exactly the same way.

People are different, ways people function are different, jobs are different, motivations for people are different.

It i shown that different people react differently to situations. When faced with perceived inequity, some people try to correct the inequity, some divest themselves of the system or process which is unfair and others maximize their advantages in it. If you took a bunch of people who naturally tend to divest themselves 'IE: I see it is unfair or I won't succeed so I won't try' of course you will get worse performance because those people are not motivated that way. They would be happier and more productive in a different type of industry where merit is judged on different criteria opposed to speed/widget productions.

To say because some people are unmotivated by 'pay per output' over 'pay per time expended' doesn't mean all people are that way or that one way is a better model than the other. Those who make way more than they ever would for 'time passed' payscales are perfectly successful in a tip-based system because they would be unproductive in a system where everyone was being paid exactly the same for different effort/quality of work output but you can't differentiate wages due to the position being the same.

Yes, about 1 in 4 people are motivated by money/compensation, while the other 3 are motivated by different factors.

 Easy E wrote:

Yet again, we see that paying commissions and tips actual leads to worse behavior.

Using the most recent recession as an example, it was really a few industries that are predominately commission based that suffered... Car and home sales were down, which means those sectors of commissioned salespeople suffered income as well... On the other side, insurance people actually did quite well, particularly in the usually steadfast areas of health and life insurance.


As nkelsch pointed out, it's all personality based... I've found out (the hard way) that I'm not all that suited to the style of commission work that I'm currently in... There are certainly aspects of my job that I really do enjoy, however it's extremely rare that I do those parts, because of the work I'd have to do to get to what I like.

 Easy E wrote:
I use to sell funeral services and coffins door-to-door.

I quit when we had a sales meeting two days after 9/11 to talk about how we could integrate it into our sales pitch.

The best part was, after I walked out they still paind me a draw from about a month until they realized I wasn't coming back. Kind of a D move on my part, but.... meh.

Within a couple months of 9/11, there was a pre paid legal sevice here in Utah that incorporated pictures of the planes crashing into the towers to sell their will option. Fairly scummy lot.

Tipping is stupid. All it takes is some donkey-cave customers, and viola', the company is making the exact same amount of money they otherwise would have for the meal, and yet you are not making anything extra for the work you did.

Because something like the cook being crap at his job means the server should be penalized?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Tipping is stupid. All it takes is some donkey-cave customers, and viola', the company is making the exact same amount of money they otherwise would have for the meal, and yet you are not making anything extra for the work you did.

Because something like the cook being crap at his job means the server should be penalized?

Except reasonable customers, and especially ones that have worked in a restaurant, know a problem with the food is seldom a problem with the server. How it is remedied is on the server, but not the actual production of the meal.

Another reason I think everyone should have to be a server at some point.

 cincydooley wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Tipping is stupid. All it takes is some donkey-cave customers, and viola', the company is making the exact same amount of money they otherwise would have for the meal, and yet you are not making anything extra for the work you did.

Because something like the cook being crap at his job means the server should be penalized?

Except reasonable customers, and especially ones that have worked in a restaurant, know a problem with the food is seldom a problem with the server. How it is remedied is on the server, but not the actual production of the meal.

Another reason I think everyone should have to be a server at some point.

Yeah, my wife and I never "punish" a server with less tip for the cook's failures. We do let them know that the food isn't up to snuff (but we never send it back unless it's THAT bad, because I've seen the movie Waiting, and I'd rather not wonder if the cooks/staff have as well, or partake in that sort of activity )

I've heard plenty of people talk about giving a bad tip/no tip to a server after a horrendous wait time at a restaurant, which is likely not having much to do with the 30 second trips that it's in the server's hands.

But the argument that everyone should be in the service industry is accurate. It would help knock A-holes down a peg as they would relate.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
How many tip in cash so they (waiter/waitress) don't have to claim it on taxes?

Cash.

Gubmint gets enough $$$...

By doing this, you are actually hurting the server in most cases. First off, there is the legal requirement for them to keep track of and report their tips. Just because it is in cash doesn't mean it's not taxable. So you are tagging on additional recordkeeping headaches for them.

Second off, if they break the law and don't report the cash tips, it is likely costing the server money. Most servers are in a lower wage bracket, and especially if they have kids, they qualify for the Earned Income Credit. Likely they are in the part of the curve where the more earned income they have (And tips qualify as earned income), the more money they get back at the end of the year for their taxes.

It seems like paying the servers appropriately and adding 15% to the price of the food would just be simpler. The tipping system has to benefit attractive people more than ugly people too, which is hardly fair.

In Ireland and the UK there is a minimum wage, and I still tip in most cases, unless the service is actually bad. Usually just a couple of bob, but enough to show appreciation. In Germany, where there is not a set minimum wage and it varies by industry and employer, I usually try to tip between 10-15%, often erring on the side of a more generous tip if I can't be bothered doing the maths in my head. No one has ever frowned at me for tipping in Germany, though the service is usually worse than in Ireland despite the more prevalent tipping culture. Go figure.

 skyth wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
How many tip in cash so they (waiter/waitress) don't have to claim it on taxes?

Cash.

Gubmint gets enough $$$...

By doing this, you are actually hurting the server in most cases. First off, there is the legal requirement for them to keep track of and report their tips. Just because it is in cash doesn't mean it's not taxable. So you are tagging on additional recordkeeping headaches for them.

Second off, if they break the law and don't report the cash tips, it is likely costing the server money. Most servers are in a lower wage bracket, and especially if they have kids, they qualify for the Earned Income Credit. Likely they are in the part of the curve where the more earned income they have (And tips qualify as earned income), the more money they get back at the end of the year for their taxes.

You're only required to claim 12% of your tips last I checked.

And from my experience there aren't any additional bookkeeping headaches. We always claimed either the 12% or our credit card tips (you know, the provable ones). Not hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
It seems like paying the servers appropriately and adding 15% to the price of the food would just be simpler. The tipping system has to benefit attractive people more than ugly people too, which is hardly fair.

Who cares if it's fair?

 cincydooley wrote:
Who cares if it's fair?

The people being paid less for doing the same job to the same standard? Reasonable people who want to see a fair wage for fair work? Most other developed countries and quite a lot of undeveloped ones too?

 SilverMK2 wrote:

The people being paid less for doing the same job to the same standard? Reasonable people who want to see a fair wage for fair work? Most other developed countries and quite a lot of undeveloped ones too?

Should an attractive person go uncompensated for leveraging their attractiveness?

I care if it's fair, generally. I mean, the world is an unfair place, inherently, but more fairness would be a good thing, don't you think?

 cincydooley wrote:

 skyth wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
How many tip in cash so they (waiter/waitress) don't have to claim it on taxes?

Cash.

Gubmint gets enough $$$...

By doing this, you are actually hurting the server in most cases. First off, there is the legal requirement for them to keep track of and report their tips. Just because it is in cash doesn't mean it's not taxable. So you are tagging on additional recordkeeping headaches for them.

Second off, if they break the law and don't report the cash tips, it is likely costing the server money. Most servers are in a lower wage bracket, and especially if they have kids, they qualify for the Earned Income Credit. Likely they are in the part of the curve where the more earned income they have (And tips qualify as earned income), the more money they get back at the end of the year for their taxes.

You're only required to claim 12%

That is 100% incorrect. All income is taxable unless specifically exempted. Tip income is not in that category and hasn't been since I can remember.

And you're ignoring the more reported income can likely mean a larger tax refund.

 skyth wrote:


That is 100% incorrect. All income is taxable unless specifically exempted. Tip income is not in that category and hasn't been since I can remember.

And you're ignoring the more reported income can likely mean a larger tax refund.

Looks like you're right. The IRS only requires that 8% if total receipts are claimed for tips.

I'd rather be served by an attractive woman than an unattractive one, if it's my choice. I don't think it's ever been a major factor in my tipping though. I'm a pretty standard 18-20% tipper for normal service. For poor service I typically won't go below $15. For exceptional service I've tipped as high as 50%. For bartender: $1 tip per beer. $2 tip per cocktail. Holidays we tip between 30-40%. I'll add an additional % if we sit and BS after we've paid our final bill.

Isn't that a lot more annoying and complicated than just paying the listed price and knowing the person is getting paid enough that you don't have to tip unless you want to?

 Da Boss wrote:
In Germany, where there is not a set minimum wage and it varies by industry and employer, I usually try to tip between 10-15%, often erring on the side of a more generous tip if I can't be bothered doing the maths in my head. No one has ever frowned at me for tipping in Germany, though the service is usually worse than in Ireland despite the more prevalent tipping culture. Go figure.

From what I was told, when stationed in Germany, is that tipping is actually somewhat frowned upon, and if you tip too much, it may actually be seen as an insult to the server.... However, if one is inclined to tip, the commonly accepted method is that, if your bill is 36.50 Euro, and you put 40 Euro down, you'd be getting 1.50 Euro back. All of that 1.50 would be in coin and is acceptable to leave that as the tip. However, if your bill is, for example 32.50, and you pay 40, the common practice is that you leave the restaurant with 5 Euro in change, and leave that last 2.50 as tip.


I also wouldn't say that the service is any worse in Germany than say, the US... it's a different culture and different methods, etc. When we were in Germany, it was common that we had to actually "flag" down the server in order to get more beer, or drink, etc... they didn't "hover" around the table with refills waiting as they do in the US. I'd say this could be down to the German server not "worrying" about getting a tip for good service and so does their job for each table as they are needed by the individual parties. Personally, I'm more of a fan of the German style, just because I hate halting conversations with people because some server insists on interrupting with, "would you like a refill?" or "can I get you anything?"

Well, I'd agree that constant interruption is annoying, but service can be very slow in Germany I've found, and you can be waiting a long time for a drink. In Ireland, you go to the bar and get your own, so I'm not used to waiting.

The service in Germany isn't terrible, but it's not as good as at home. Never been to the US so I can't comment. But you're right about the tipping - you pay, and then ask for what you want back. I've just never seen anyone annoyed for getting a decent tip. Were you in East Germany? Maybe it's a regional thing.

 Da Boss wrote:

Were you in East Germany? Maybe it's a regional thing.

I was in Wiesbaden (about 10-45 minutes, depending on how you drive from Frankfurt), which is, from what I'd been told, one of the wealthiest cities, per capita in Germany.

Grand, not that far from where I live in Dusseldorf then.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

. Personally, I'm more of a fan of the German style, just because I hate halting conversations with people because some server insists on interrupting with, "would you like a refill?" or "can I get you anything?"

And I think that's one of the areas where really exceptional servers differentiate themselves. There are always occasions to talk to your tables without interrupting; you just have to be able to read it.