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 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

What kind of Marine lore is that? Everyone knows that the only way Spess Marines deal with their problems is the liberal use of violence.

DH is inquisitorial acolytes, DW is marines.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

We played Rogue Trader before we played Deathwatch. In the latter parts of the great storyline the RT party had an ally of convenience in the form of a Salamander Techmarine, who served as a very powerful asset, especially in the final mission.

When the RT party crashlanded and got stuck in a 3-way battle between hapless Guardsmen, Night Lords and Tyranids (including a Hive Tyrant) they were damn happy that they hade the Techmarine there to help out.

I almost feel like SM do best in that role. Make them NPCs that can be very useful but also have their own agendas that not always match that of the party.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

What kind of Marine lore is that? Everyone knows that the only way Spess Marines deal with their problems is the liberal use of violence.

Most Marines, yeah. The Deathwatch is a little bit smarter.

Raven Guard in Deathwatch are absolutely epic. My level 2 RG Tactical Marine has 76 agility, +20 silent move and concealment, and has no penalty to either from his PA (thanks to the RG talent Guerrilla Training). Add that weird cloaking field for lols.

He's basically a 9 foot armoured badass who sneaks up on people and knifes them in the neck. So boss.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

We played Rogue Trader before we played Deathwatch. In the latter parts of the great storyline the RT party had an ally of convenience in the form of a Salamander Techmarine, who served as a very powerful asset, especially in the final mission.

When the RT party crashlanded and got stuck in a 3-way battle between hapless Guardsmen, Night Lords and Tyranids (including a Hive Tyrant) they were damn happy that they hade the Techmarine there to help out.

I almost feel like SM do best in that role. Make them NPCs that can be very useful but also have their own agendas that not always match that of the party.

I agree. Space marines can be a bit to powerful when PC have control of them, especially if you are not careful and GM. A powerful helper, a bit like a sentient tank, works well. One reason you have to be real careful with the new tau battlesuits in RT. It's not so good when your PCs are out fitted with riptides (it is entertaining though).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

What kind of Marine lore is that? Everyone knows that the only way Spess Marines deal with their problems is the liberal use of violence.

DH is inquisitorial acolytes, DW is marines.

Oh. Who needs to read anyway?

Anyway, the way I thought the Death Watch worked was that they went in when Ordo Xenos needed something fethed and needed it fethed royally. All of the info gathering would've been done by an Inquisitor beforehand.

The advantage of RG is that you can go in, feth stuff, and get out without the owners knowing that their stuff has been fethed.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

What kind of Marine lore is that? Everyone knows that the only way Spess Marines deal with their problems is the liberal use of violence.

DH is inquisitorial acolytes, DW is marines.

Oh. Who needs to read anyway?

Anyway, the way I thought the Death Watch worked was that they went in when Ordo Xenos needed something fethed and needed it fethed royally. All of the info gathering would've been done by an Inquisitor beforehand.

As I see it (might not be 100%), the DW deal with things that the inquisitors cannot. Like space marines for the IG.

 Ashiraya wrote:
One is an outlier you like, one is an outlier you dislike.

The 7" is not an outlier.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ah good, we can dismiss any and all game mechanics as such.

I said just the Sisters had never been described as such in the fluff. Was that true?

 Ashiraya wrote:
He must be. He is bigger and stronger than any human naturally can be, and he has no implants or anything, so he is obviously a mutant.

You do realize that there is a huge variety in human capabilities and height, right?

 Ashiraya wrote:
In fact, all classes can solo Bloodthirsters, even apothecaries.

Yes. But a Demon Prince can solo a marine company too. It all depends on who is a PC and who is an NPC.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The 7" is not an outlier.

It is.

I said just the Sisters had never been described as such in the fluff. Was that true?

Since we are excluding game mechanics, I agree that they haven't.

You do realize that there is a huge variety in human capabilities and height, right?

No one in the history of the world has been both as large as he is while having his build. In fact, due to how weight, human bones and so on works, a human could not be larger than a Space Marine while at the same time being so good for combat. Even famous strong giants like André have always had a very very different body shape. This is because of the square-cube law. This is one reason Marines need artificially strengthened muscles and bones.

Yes. But a Demon Prince can solo a marine company too. It all depends on who is a PC and who is an NPC.

But if I quote CSM feats in a book where loyalists are protagonists? That should be reliable, yes?

 dusara217 wrote:
This, I mostly agree with. Mostly. Orks should have toughness that is like one point below Space Marines, as Space Marines have the Larraman that practically instaheals any wound they get that isn't incredibly severe.

If you cut the arms of an astartes, and stitch it back on, but but the left one on the right side, and the right one on the lest side, can the marine still move his arms?
A marine would have a life expectancy of a few hours in the hand of an ork painboy.

 dusara217 wrote:
Space Marine weapons and armour are far larger than that of the SoB, and Astartes get top-of-the-line EVERYTHING. Bigger Bolts = higher caliber = larger explosive = more effective. That is basic logic right there, I'm using the Common Sense Property of Life.

Common sense means 40k do not work. Now, logic say that if you can prove “False” with your premise, i.e. if they are incoherent, you can prove literally everything. So…

 dusara217 wrote:
Do you honestly expect me to believe the Sisters of Battle ALL wear Artificer Armour?

Artificer armor just mean “well made armor”. And obviously, Sisters do all wear very well made armor.

 dusara217 wrote:

The armourers of the Blood Angels are exceptionally skilled artisans. It can take many lifetimes to produce a single suit of sculpted plate, but each is a masterful work of art that provides the wearer with superior protection.

It can take many lifetimes for even a master Techmarine who spends his entire career building armour and weapons and repairing vehicles and has centuries of experience already.

That is why we do not go for Techmarines, and instead ask people who are not huge gene-modified soldiers that underwent a training that got only the most brutal could survive, but instead look for people that were just selected for being good at making armor instead. It is called “asking the right person for the job.”

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Ecclessiarchy is rich, but money won't get you everything in the Imperium.

Yeah, the Ecclesiarchy also needs tons of influence. Good thing it has tons of influence.

 Ashiraya wrote:
No one in the history of the world has been both as large as he is while having his build.

By “as large as he is”, you mean how large?
Also, did you notice that 40k is set in the future, people may have evolved, and there are way, way more people alive in 40k than there has been in the whole recorded history of the world?

 Ashiraya wrote:
But if I quote CSM feats in a book where loyalists are protagonists? That should be reliable, yes?

Books? I was talking about RPGs. There are no PC/NPC in books.

Harker doesn't really look like mutantly powerful, he just looks like he spends all his time working out and taking steroids.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, but why do you think they are bigger?

Do you really think SM weapons are just added metal filler?

Not even IOM weapons designers are that stupid.

Eh, honestly, I'd imagine Space Marine weapons are ruggedized for the kind of actions that Space Marines take. Space Marines might need to hit things with their bolters, and still have the bolter work after the fact.

When you consider how hard a Marine can potentially swing, and how hard some of the things he might swing at, yeah, he'd need a bolter capable of withstanding that punishment.

That's not to say that there can't be differences in caliber size between bolters. Especially between human-sized ones and Marine-sized ones. But I'd imagine there's actually a whole heck of a lot of filler in a Marine bolter.

As I said, like the ripper guns. Similar wielders, similar constraints.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, but why do you think they are bigger?

Do you really think SM weapons are just added metal filler?

Not even IOM weapons designers are that stupid.

Eh, honestly, I'd imagine Space Marine weapons are ruggedized for the kind of actions that Space Marines take. Space Marines might need to hit things with their bolters, and still have the bolter work after the fact.

When you consider how hard a Marine can potentially swing, and how hard some of the things he might swing at, yeah, he'd need a bolter capable of withstanding that punishment.

That's not to say that there can't be differences in caliber size between bolters. Especially between human-sized ones and Marine-sized ones. But I'd imagine there's actually a whole heck of a lot of filler in a Marine bolter.

Isn't that what they have combat blades for?


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Also, wouldn't it be funny if Assault Marines could actually do what they are supposed to instead of being 2A punching bags?



I know, I know, it wouldn't work with the current game mechanics, but an 1-1000 kill ratio for a dog-standard ASM while solo is still pretty funny. Love how that game took the passive resilience of SM and shifted it to active to make it more dynamic.

Sometimes you need something big and heavy to hit something with.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You do realize that there is a huge variety in human capabilities and height, right?

No one in the history of the world has been both as large as he is while having his build. In fact, due to how weight, human bones and so on works, a human could not be larger than a Space Marine while at the same time being so good for combat. Even famous strong giants like André have always had a very very different body shape. This is because of the square-cube law. This is one reason Marines need artificially strengthened muscles and bones.

Andre the Giant laughs at you and offers you a drink.

 Ashiraya wrote:
No one in the history of the world has been both as large as he is while having his build. In fact, due to how weight, human bones and so on works, a human could not be larger than a Space Marine while at the same time being so good for combat. Even famous strong giants like André have always had a very very different body shape. This is because of the square-cube law. This is one reason Marines need artificially strengthened muscles and bones.

Ashiraya wonders why André is laughing.

Ashiraya did assert that Harker has a very different body shape to this, which he does have.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, but why do you think they are bigger?

Do you really think SM weapons are just added metal filler?

Not even IOM weapons designers are that stupid.

Eh, honestly, I'd imagine Space Marine weapons are ruggedized for the kind of actions that Space Marines take. Space Marines might need to hit things with their bolters, and still have the bolter work after the fact.

When you consider how hard a Marine can potentially swing, and how hard some of the things he might swing at, yeah, he'd need a bolter capable of withstanding that punishment.

That's not to say that there can't be differences in caliber size between bolters. Especially between human-sized ones and Marine-sized ones. But I'd imagine there's actually a whole heck of a lot of filler in a Marine bolter.

Isn't that what they have combat blades for?

There's a reason the military teaches rifle close combat techniques more than knife techniques. Sometimes you have to hit a melon-fether with what you've got in your hands. Hand to hand combat in a battlefield setting is quick and close and short and brutal. You're not always going to have time to ready a knife or other melee implement, and you're going to have to smack someone with your gun. Even if just to create separation.



Or maybe your helmet. Though why this guy has taken the time to put his soft cover back on is still beyond me.

I like how even the training diagrams just look like two guys practicing.

@dusara217

Since we agree on everything (pretty much) except SoB arms and weapons, here is my take on it. Sisters armor are of equivalent quality than Space Marine, they were formerly the praetrorian guards of the utlimate master of the Imperium and are their equipment now is produced by the best Magos on the best Forges of the Adeptus Mchanicus. Their stuff is really good just like Space Marine. The of size of the armor is explain by a few factor.

The first and most important one are that Space Marines armor are described has having important strength enhancing servo-motors like a second mass of muscular tissues beneath the plating which is connected to their Black Carapace. These servo-motors take place and make the Space Marine lool larger than he is whithout his armor. Sisters don't have extensive servo-motors in their armor. They only have the bare minimum to allow them to move without problem and reduce the recoil of their bolters. Thus, they don't look much larger with or without armor.

The second reason why Space Marines armor look more impressive is their design. They got massive shoulder guards which serves has shield in firefight, but are probably very combersome in close combat because of their size. The chest plate is also bended in such a way that Space Marine torso look larger. The Mag boots also gives them massive feet and boots. All of this create an optic illusion to make you think that Space Marine are even larger than they are. It's also a characteristic that makes them look more manly because of larger chest, broad shoulders and big hands and feets. It.s an integral part of their design has superhumen or more accuratly supermen.

Sisters armor have smaller shoulder plate comparable to real fullplate shoulder guards and possess a neck guard to prevent decapitation. They don't have mag boots so their feets look normal and their torso plate are made to show of their feminie nature (Vandire liked his girls cute why do you know!). This gives them the illusion of beeing even smaller than they are because of a mix of dark colours and slim features. These armor are in my opinion much closer to actual real armors used by ancient civilisations and cultures.

In fact I would say they offer the same level protection because they present the same level of actual armor plate in the same materials. They have comparable thickness, yet it's distributed differently. Sisters armor present more defence on the legs then Space Marine because of the more pronouced curves of the plating (it's a easy way to make armor thicker whitout adding weigth) while Space Marine present more protection on the upper torso. All in all it's about the same thing.

When you look at the weapon Space Marine are barely a feet taller than normal humen. Their stuff looks larger because they look larger but most of it is an illusion caused by their armor design which brakes perspectives. The Fact that Space Marine are almost always posed legs appart and shoulder straits while Sisters of Battle are posed on their side and pivoting or arching add to the illusion. That's how artists makes men look more heroic and women more sexy. Stan Lee wrote a very good article about that a few years back. Don't let it fool you in believing their equipment is that much different. The previous SoB codex stated that both their armor and weapons were equivalent to Astartes ones in protection and power, but had less advanced support system and less autonomy.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:


Or maybe your helmet. Though why this guy has taken the time to put his soft cover back on is still beyond me.

Spoiler:

Is it even necessary to have a two step process for, "whack him in the head with your helmet"? I think that pretty much covers the technique right there.

epronovost wrote:
The Fact that Space Marine are almost always posed legs appart and shoulder straits while Sisters of Battle are posed on their side and pivoting or arching add to the illusion. That's how artists makes men look more heroic and women more sexy. Stan Lee wrote a very good article about that a few years back.

This is why I like Andrea's Sister artwork so much:

That pose was obviously not meant at making her look sexy . And honestly there, she looks just as armored as an average marine (though there is quite a discrepancy between how big the armor is on marines too, some artwork will have tiny head making the armor appear huge).



Or, for that matter, Ross Campbell

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
though there is quite a discrepancy between how big the armor is on marines too, some artwork will have tiny head making the armor appear huge

You're just exaggerating. The proportions are perfectly fine.

This is a Space Marine riptide. I mean, his feet are in the abdomen of the armor !

For reference:


I would say there, the armor seems similar in thickness. The only point where the difference seems obvious is on the ankle, where the marines' armor is extra thick while the sisters' armor is extra thin. Oh, and the helmet. Put your helmets on, girls!

I thought we were considering art noncanon due to its inconsistency?

You're correct in what you're saying -their true power is poorly represented on the board. But from a commeicial point of view for Games Workshop, that has to be the case. If a marine was roughly the equal of ten or thirty, or a hundred men, as they are supposed to be depending on what you read, that would translate to an a massive points cost for a basic model. The result being that a 1500 point SM army would be composed of about 15 or 20 models, and the opposing force would have an stronimically higher model count, making those armies prohibitively expensive and generally making the game unfun. i don't begrudge GW for avoiding that. I agree that termies and vets should be WS BS 5 (they were once), but on the overall issue of SMs underwhelming stats, the easiest thing do is accept that there are space marines...and there are tabletop space marines.

As far as fluff goes I don't accept that SM bolters are too heavy to lift without power armour or Scouts would use different bolters, I 'd say too heavy to be USED by a human, and that a Guardsmans bolter would be significantly smaller and lower calibre. A human bolter should be weaker than an Astartes one for that reason, but obviously that's not feasible within the standard 40k mechanic, also, is it just me that would like to see a stock on Guard bolters? If they're that heavy and cumbersome I'd want one to stabilise it a bit.

On the subject of SM height, they've been around thousands of years, follow dozens of lines of lineage and have variations between chapters of appearance, skin tone and build, I don't think there is a standard space marine height, save to say any SM without armour would be taller and broader than any human. I figure 7-9' (with armour).

Hey, first post

- Fluff and crunch in 40k IMO only can have slight similarities. (In theory at least, the result is debatable, as we all know) the crunch is to enable equal force strength with different armies. The principle of fluffy marines "surgeon strike with maximal force applied by minimum personal" does not cope with this.
- The skill point system is much too crude to symbolise more than "rank and file astartes" compared with "rank and file guardsman".
- Close combat is in principle much too emphasised against shooting. In reality (well you know what I mean) Tau simply would blast the entire galaxy into heaps of ashes. I mean, think of what 40k guns are capable of. Right: nothing! A marine shooting his bolter into another marine: only 1 in 4 times a kill? And a converted reach of coverage of about 50 meters??? Aw come on... were the crunch to depict any kind of reality, every kind of assault not consisting of direct teleport into the enemy lines or the like would be a little Ghettysburg...

But this is okay for me. The game has to function as a game.

Regarding Deathwatch, it should be noted that Deathwatch is not attempting to portray "regular" Space Marines, but ultra-specialists with tons of experience (and were significantly more capable than the stats they gave to Space Marines before that, or basic CSM's in Black Crusade), and they had to actually go out of their way to tone down basic Bolters for Deathwatch because they initially made them significantly more capable than things like DH/RT vehicle mounted heavy bolters and the like and nobody was bothering with other weapons, particularly with the "rolling 0's gets you bonus damage" rule for PC's.

Deathwatch is to Space Marines what the movie "300" was to actual Greek Spartans.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Regarding Deathwatch, it should be noted that Deathwatch is not attempting to portray "regular" Space Marines, but ultra-specialists with tons of experience (and were significantly more capable than the stats they gave to Space Marines before that, or basic CSM's in Black Crusade), and they had to actually go out of their way to tone down basic Bolters for Deathwatch because they initially made them significantly more capable than things like DH/RT vehicle mounted heavy bolters and the like and nobody was bothering with other weapons, particularly with the "rolling 0's gets you bonus damage" rule for PC's.

Deathwatch is to Space Marines what the movie "300" was to actual Greek Spartans.

A common misconception, but entirely false.

If you look at the stats for unnamed Chaos Space Marine NPCs in the same book, they are just as if not more powerful than fully kitted level 1 Deathwatch characters. You get to re-roll one stat if you wish, but otherwise the game speaks nothing of your character being superior (rather, all that does is to explain that your character couldn't have been significantly below average in... something.)

Bolters in Deathwatch are entirely fine, except for how Tearing messes with Righteous Fury. Using a differently coloured die for the Tearing roll and preventing Righteous Fury from triggering when that die rolls 10 fixes the problem.

Black Crusade CSMs are extremely weak compared to their NPC counterparts, although this is very easily explained - if they had been as powerful as in Deathwatch, the choice between human and Astartes in Black Crusade would be a complete no-brainer.