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 Ashiraya wrote:
Outlier, illogical and easy to ignore.

I agree that it is going to be easy for you to ignore. But I will still bring this back every goddamn time, because such a direct contradiction by GW proper is too good to pass out.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If you are going to ignore where SoB use space magic and behave more like D&D clerics than anything else

They have never done that in the fluff!

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am going to ignore GW not understanding the meaning of their own scale.

They understand it just fine. BL and FFG might not, though .

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines are incredibly consistently described as being significantly larger than normal men.

Consistently described + GW = lol.
But yeah, they are higher than your average man. Not immensely larger though, apparently!

Unfortunately, the game system is too limited for fluffy stats of anything better than elite troops, and breaks the moment you introduce vehicles. Take the following:

Keep Guardsman stats as they are.

Give SM 7 in all stats with 4 attacks base and 3 wounds, and a rerollable 3+ save, and 3+ invul. Bolters are S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4.

Give Aspect Warriors S/T 4, WS/BS/I 8, 5 attacks base, light Aspect armour stays 3+ while heavy Aspect armour is a 3+ with a 4+ reroll (the reroll is not allowed against AP4 weapons). They all get a 3+ invul for free thanks to their evasion. 2 wounds each.

Ork boyz get S5 T5, and WS3. Nobz get 4 wounds and S7 T7, but still only 6+ (or 4+ with 'eavy) armour.

Gaunts get WS4 BS4 S5 T4 I6 with 2 attacks base. 3 for Hormas.

Warriors get WS/BS6, S8 T8 with 5 wounds and 6 attacks. 3+ armour with a 4+ reroll (Reroll not allowed against AP4 weapons).

And so on. Making stuff fluffy is perfectly possible, but not on GW's scale.

On the subject of fanboism, I do think SM fanboism is slightly exacerbated by the fact that SMs have already been intensely fanboid, and were damn powerful to begin with. The leads any fanboism to seem greater. WE probebly each have out own fanboism/fangirlism for are particular army that is about equal for the most part. Just a thought.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I agree that it is going to be easy for you to ignore. But I will still bring this back every goddamn time, because such a direct contradiction by GW proper is too good to pass out.

Knock yourself out. A bad example does not get better when you repeat it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
They have never done that in the fluff!

Say hello to FFG. It's canon.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
They understand it just fine. BL and FFG might not, though .

No, they do not.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Consistently described + GW = lol.
But yeah, they are higher than your average man. Not immensely larger though, apparently!

As much as it's funny to propagate the 'GW is inconsistent xdddddd' meme, there are actually things that are consistent.

For example, Tactical Marines use Power Armour. This is very consistent.

Space Marines are also described as 'giants' next to normal humans. This is also very consistent. How many examples of this must I give before it's obvious that the 7' notion is an outlier that exists partially because GW wants to give as little as possible in their promo and partially because they themselves have no idea of what their lore means? Ten? Twenty?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Pg.320 Blood Angels Omnibus wrote:He saw Tycho’s combi-weapon lying on the floor and took a half-step toward it. The idea of taking it up himself died in this mind; the gun was so massive he would never have been able to lift it.

Pg.20 The First Heretic
wrote:The angel’s brethren emerged from the dark interior of their landing craft and descended to the plaza. All wore armour of the same blue. All of them carried great weapons too heavy for a mortal man to lift unaided.

So, yeah, you need power armor to lift them. Good, Sisters have those .
Oh, and by the way, let me remind you of Sergent Harker. His bolter is bigger than your astartes bolter. His bolter is heavier than your astartes bolter. His bolter is stronger than your astartes bolter. He is also obviously way bigger than your average astartes, which is very fun .
Direct from the GW studio!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you really think SM weapons are just added metal filler?

Yeah, so they can beat people to death with it. Kind of like the ripper guns .

Out of interest, Ashiraya, how tall to you think they are. I've always imagined somewhere between 7'-8' myself. Big enough, but small enough to actually operate in human-sized conditions.

All 40k lore is like Star Wars books post-Return of the Jedi, ready to be entirely wiped out and rewritten the moment a good opportunity (aka the upcoming Star Wars movie) comes to pass.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Oh, and by the way, let me remind you of Sergent Harker. His bolter is bigger than your astartes bolter. His bolter is heavier than your astartes bolter. His bolter is stronger than your astartes bolter. He is also obviously way bigger than your average astartes, which is very fun .
Direct from the GW studio!

In the SM codex, Telion and three dozen Scouts cull a planetary rebellion in less than a day.

Studio lore olololololololololol

 Ashiraya wrote:
A bad example does not get better when you repeat it.

No, but a reliant example that you refuse to acknowledge keeps being funny every time .

 Ashiraya wrote:
Say hello to FFG. It's canon.

That is crunch, not fluff.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines are also described as 'giants' next to normal humans.

So is Harker. He is just bigger than the average marine. Deal with it .


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 Ashiraya wrote:
In the SM codex, Telion and a few Scout squads cull a planetary rebellion in a matter of days.

Yeah, they did. How populated was the planet?

Marbo would have done it in a matter of hours .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

No, but a reliant example that you refuse to acknowledge keeps being funny every time .

If you are going to take that outlier as reliable, I assume Mach 180 Marines are reliable too?

That is crunch, not fluff.

Nothing is canon, everything is canonnnnn

So is Harker. He is just bigger than the average marine. Deal with it

He is just a mutant.

Yeah, they did. How populated was the planet?

Marbo would have done it in a matter of hours .

It doesn't say.

Also, Marbo doesn't exist.

Can you show me his entry in the AM codex?


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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Out of interest, Ashiraya, how tall to you think they are. I've always imagined somewhere between 7'-8' myself. Big enough, but small enough to actually operate in human-sized conditions.

Nine feet. Can still move through human-sized areas if they absolutely have to (though they may cause some damage to it in the process), but in most cases they shouldn't have to. Nobs, Tyranid Warriors and similar things you use Marines against can't fit in those areas either.

 dusara217 wrote:
Since a lot of Space Marine Chapters are said to be close-combat monsters, why don't they reflect that on the tabletop? AFAIK, only BA have their CC covered acurately, while Chapters like the Black Templars and Space Wolves kind of get short handed on the Close Combat. Wouldn't it make more sense if Chapters like the SW (who practically LIVE for CC) or the Black Templars (who spend an unusual amount of time in CC) to at least receive an extra WS point?

On top of this, I find that units like Veterans (who have been fighting for literally centuries) receive no justice for it, like an extra WS or BS point like they do in the fluff. I don't understand how GW is trying to find balance with Space Marines - why not accurately depict them and then up the point cost? They're meant to be the specialist ultra-mega-Special Forces of all time, and the TT makes them look like ordinary Delta Force.

Note: a super-duper special unit does not due a specialized Chapter justice. What, Wolves riding Wolves with Wolves following them is doing justice to somebody who has been fighting in absolute melee for centuries and still has the skill of a standard Tactical Marine? Oh, yeah, that makes so much sense.

You are asking this about a game where they simply arbitrarily declare "The Tau aren't good at close combat," while at the same time declaring the Tau to be the "Masters of the Scientific Method and technology?"

The one omits the other.

If they are truly the masters of science and technology, they would:

1) Recognize a physiological shortcoming.
2) Investigate the reasons for that shortcoming.
3) Develop a technological fix for that shortcoming.

In other words:

They would have an App for that.

But... That said... There exist CC specialists in various Chapters... And... Could one not create their own Chapter which covered that deficiency?

MB

It think (based on fluff, and a bit of headcanon), that it is closer to reality to say that tau do not train or prepare for close combat, not that they are inherently bad at it. Not having a ubserdly sharp sword to hand is not good in 40k close combat. And the doctrine is a good deal about keeping away from CC.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If you are going to take that outlier as reliable, I assume Mach 180 Marines are reliable too?

It is no outlier. One is something you dislike, the other is misinterpreting bad prose from Black Library.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Nothing is canon, everything is canonnnnn

I will take this as a “Yes, it was not fluff”.

 Ashiraya wrote:
He is just a mutant.

No, he is not. Have you read the page I linked to?

 Ashiraya wrote:
It doesn't say.

I assumed so.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Also, Marbo doesn't exist.

You are being annoyed by his existence, are you not?

Wait if we're using an FFG rpg as a base... can I have Scions with BS 8, because my current Stormtrooper has that and enough traits to make his hellgun do more damage than a heavy bolter and still punch through PA. Or one shot a killa kan.

And lets no go near my friend Heavy dude who has a multilaser that can take out a leman russ in a volley or two. And only misses 5% of the time, or the Ogryn that can tank said multilaser volley.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

It is no outlier. One is something you dislike, the other is misinterpreting bad prose from Black Library.

One is an outlier you like, one is an outlier you dislike.

I will take this as a “Yes, it was not fluff”.

Ah good, we can dismiss any and all game mechanics as such. Excellent, I will keep this in mind when I debate with you.

No, he is not. Have you read the page I linked to?

He must be. He is bigger and stronger than any human naturally can be, and he has no implants or anything, so he is obviously a mutant.

You are being annoyed by his existence, are you not?

Ah yes, Marbo is so awesome.

niceme.me


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 Bobthehero wrote:
Wait if we're using an FFG rpg as a base... can I have Scions with BS 8, because my current Stormtrooper has that and enough traits to make his hellgun do more damage than a heavy bolter and still punch through PA. Or one shot a killa kan.

And lets no go near my friend Heavy dude who has a multilaser that can take out a leman russ in a volley or two. And only misses 5% of the time, or the Ogryn that can tank said multilaser volley.

Sure, then we have Assault Marines who solo Bloodthirsters in melee.

In fact, all classes can solo Bloodthirsters, even apothecaries.

You were saying?


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But anyway guys, the topic seemed to be specifically Space Marine melee rather than anything else. I am preparing an argument about that, gimme a moment.

There is one inconsistency I love in deathwatch. It says point blank in the fluff that the pulse rifle is more powerful than the boltgun, yet it does a mere 2d10+2 damage with a pen of 4, whereas the boltgun does 2d10+5 dmage with a pen of 5.

Magic Astartes bolters. Clearly that statement was only about civilian bolters.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It says point blank in the fluff that the pulse rifle is more powerful than the boltgun

I reconcile that with the pulse rifle entry referring to human boltguns.

Then it makes sense.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Magic Astartes bolters. Clearly that statement was only about civilian bolters.

Misnomer. 'Civilians' don't use bolters at all. I am pretty sure it's even illegal for them to possess a bolter shell. 'Human' bolters is a better name for it.

Nah. The best part is, it actually specifies "astartes" bolters.

"Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability."

edit: Doesn't mean they don't have bolters. Not everybody in the imperium obeys the law. They're probably just the same ones the SoB and IG use (dieaz?), just older.

Weird.

the ancient wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
An all 5 statted common troop with 2 wounds and FNP would be fun, marines already struggle a bit with net wounds and net firepower. Making them better could really make it impossible for them to handle hordes or gun lines.

Then give them a marine bolter, not a puny human bolter and it might work. Though I'm also against other humans having a stat over 3, unless they're a character.

I hope for your sake you never read the Scion codex, anything Krieg and especially not the Elysians D99 rules, because you're in for a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad trip.

Yeah, deathwatch was not their crowning achievement. I think DH was much better, DH2 about the same, but in a different direction.. Rouge trader is pretty good too. Never played the others though

Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

OW is pretty fun, the DM's I had weren't the harshest kind and we had two medic, so survival wasn't too hard (except that time the Heavy accidentally blew the Commissar appart, who had 1 last action to shoot back at the Heavy, who lost his leg, lucky him my Kriegsman wasn't there), and we were just fighting Orks. And we had a Leman Russ.

epronovost wrote:
Well if you want to make Space Marine more realistic here his the sad truth. You must do the same thing for all the other armies too. Your regular Eldar Aspect Warrior are more skilled than your regular Space Marine in their trade (so more WS and BS). You will have to raise their stats above that of your new and improve Space Marines (same thing for witches, incubis and others of the Dark Eldar). You will have to massively boost tyranid creatures. A hormagaunt is a vicious giant bug-like monster the size of a small horse or pony. Considering it's size, speed and origin. It should have enough strength to smash a truck in pieces (and yet they have the same strength stats then humen, tau and eldar). Just to give you an idea a teo feet tall juvenile chimp is far stronger than an adult male. Imagine now a silver-back gorilla (they are about 15 times stronger than a adult male). Tyranid warriors should be able to kill a Space Marine whithout much problem in close combat so can raveners, geenstealers, etc. Nobs and warbosses should have has much strength, endurence and skills than them if not more (and by warboss standards Space Marines are like flies). In fact even your most regular ork have a comparable toughness to a Space Marine.

This, I mostly agree with. Mostly. Orks should have toughness that is like one point below Space Marines, as Space Marines have the Larraman that practically instaheals any wound they get that isn't incredibly severe.Warbosses, I concur. Eldar, again, I concur - although, each Aspect Warrior should specialize in his Aspect. For instance:
Dire Avengers should have a WS and BSof 4, as they are generic warriors but still spend their whole lives training. Howling Banshees specialize in melee combat, so they should WS 5 and BS 2, as they spend all of their time practicing for melee combat. Dark Reapers should be BS 5 and WS 3 to better reflect their long ranged fire support role.
And I'm not sure that I agree on the 'Nids.
I don't really think that ordinary humans, like the Guard, should ever be above WS and BS 2. They don't have the centuries to hone their skills, and they die in droves.

Space Marine armor and guns are identical to that of SoB they just have a different design and a few kinks in supplement like mag boots and more advance systems in their armor and bigger grips and stocks on their bolters (they even have the same brand, the Godwyn patern for Space Marines and the Godwyn-diaz for the SoB which is identical yet adpated for a humen grip). When it comes to raww skills I doubt that Space Marines are that much more trained than Sisters of Battles. Both of them are train from early infancy (the SoB by professionnal soldiers and Space Marine by their culture), both of them are selected from exceptionnal individuals and are further trained by heroes and champions, both of them can live for centuries (Space Marine due to their physiologie, SoB due to rejuvenat drugs and surgeries). So I think that it would be resonnable for them to have very similar WS and BS. Space Marine are very good, but so are their ennemies that's why their stats are comparable has for novels, it's like watching Die Hard and judge the combat skills of police officers compare to criminals and terrorist by observing the feats of John Maclain. Novel characters are special by their standards hell Gaunt killed a Khorn Berzerker with a chainsword no less.

Space Marine weapons and armour are far larger than that of the SoB, and Astartes get top-of-the-line EVERYTHING. Bigger Bolts = higher caliber = larger explosive = more effective. That is basic logic right there, I'm using the Common Sense Property of Life. Do you honestly expect me to believe the Sisters of Battle ALL wear Artificer Armour? Because, for their armour to provide equal protection, it would have to be of the same quality as Artificer Armour because 20 cm vs. 10cm which do you think is easier to penetrate? And, in case you do expect me to believe that, here's a little overview of Artificer Armour:

The armourers of the Blood Angels are exceptionally skilled artisans. It can take many lifetimes to produce a single suit of sculpted plate, but each is a masterful work of art that provides the wearer with superior protection.

It can take many lifetimes for even a master Techmarine who spends his entire career building armour and weapons and repairing vehicles and has centuries of experience already. Do you seriously expect that the SoB get that kind of armour?

I would be for Marines getting a stat and point boost. As they are they are in this weird, nigh unplayable mix of being priced like elite troops but not having the durability to match. However, in 40k's current game state I do not believe this would be practical as it would only give light infantry army players less targets to focus down.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

 dusara217 wrote:

It can take many lifetimes for even a master Techmarine who spends his entire career building armour and weapons and repairing vehicles and has centuries of experience already. Do you seriously expect that the SoB get that kind of armour?

The answer, of course, is that they don't. The Ecclessiarchy is rich, but money won't get you everything in the Imperium. Their relations with the AdMech is tenous due to their great difference in religious interpretation and because they are zealous in different directions.

Some of the SoB Canonesses could be fortunate enough to obtain AA, but nothing more.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

What kind of Marine lore is that? Everyone knows that the only way Spess Marines deal with their problems is the liberal use of violence.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathwatch was mostly fine. I have DMed a fair few DW games and aside from the common oddity it's an entirely playable game.

My party focuses a bit too much on the pow-pow-chop-boom part of the game and a bit too little on the personality-filled, interaction part, though, despite my best efforts to add incentives.

I know that feeling. I usually dealt with that, by making it more difficult than it already is in DH, forcing them to do take non-violent means at times, subterfuge and suchlike. Less blast down the door of the cult, more infiltrate it and take out the leaders before invading with the arbites now free to act after the arbite leader was revealed to be a cultist, in a final epic battle.

What kind of Marine lore is that? Everyone knows that the only way Spess Marines deal with their problems is the liberal use of violence.

Most Marines, yeah. The Deathwatch is a little bit smarter.