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I'm liking it so far. Up to episode 9 I think. Cast seems good. One gripe I have is how dark everything is. I mean, I get that they probably were like "OMG, he's blind, let's make everything dark like we're looking through his eyes that can't see anything", but it kinda starts to get old for me after a while.
It starts out amazing but goes above average as it goes on. The fight at the end of episode 2 is downright mind-blowing and will be in lists of best fight scenes for quite some time. Certainly worth watching.
Spoiler:
I kind of wished it had ended with Fisk escaping instead of escaping only to get caught right off. It would have pushed the theme that not everyone gets the happy ending, but they still would have foiled his plan, just not getting him. It also plays a bit into the comic where the character is just out of reach. Oh well. D'onofrio really brought Fisk to life and made him both relatable and evil in equal measure. Still have room for the Hand and other shenanigans.
It even had a passing mention of Electra in the series, which was nice.
I really wasn't expecting Ben to die right off.
There is also the James Wesley thread that hasn't been pulled at quite yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 22:05:33
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote: It starts out amazing but goes above average as it goes on. The fight at the end of episode 2 is downright mind-blowing and will be in lists of best fight scenes for quite some time. Certainly worth watching.
Spoiler:
I kind of wished it had ended with Fisk escaping instead of escaping only to get caught right off. It would have pushed the theme that not everyone gets the happy ending, but they still would have foiled his plan, just not getting him. It also plays a bit into the comic where the character is just out of reach. Oh well. D'onofrio really brought Fisk to life and made him both relatable and evil in equal measure. Still have room for the Hand and other shenanigans.
It even had a passing mention of Electra in the series, which was nice.
I really wasn't expecting Ben to die right off.
There is also the James Wesley thread that hasn't been pulled at quite yet.
I agree.
Spoiler:
Fisk getting caught was a bit disappointing and surprised me. That being said I suspect we haven't seen the last of him. I also suspect that the Westley Karin story line isn't done with. Madame Gao will almost certainly reappear for the Iron Fist series. The symbol on the heroine she was selling is the same symbol that Iron Fist villain Steel Serpent has on his chest.
There were lots of tie ins to the rest of the Marvel Universe. From Karl Crusher Creel, the absorbing man, fighting Matt's dad, to the "Greek girl" Matt dated in college (Electra), to Roxxon Oil, Van Lundt Real estate. Father Lantom is a reoccurring priest in the Marvel universe, working with Cloak and Dagger and Nightcrawler among others. When the show mentions Kingpin taking over Rigoletto's books, they are giving a nod to the comic origins. Don Rigoletto was a mob boss who first hired Fisk as his bodyguard and enforcer, before Fisk took his life – and his criminal empire along with it. Leland Owlsley is the villain the Owl in the comics. We shall see if he really died from that fall. St Agnes orphanage is the same one that Skye from Agents of SHIELD was at.
There was a hidden cameo from Stan Lee on the wall here:
And of course the references to the "incident" that wrecked Hells Kitchen which was the events of the Avengers movie.
No, the suit they designed for the show looks fine, it just would have been nice to see it before the last 15 minutes of the final episode of the season is all.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Yodhrin wrote: ... they only dick around with the payoffs when the movie schedule requires it of them...
Yeah. The rest of the time Agents just doesn't have payoffs.
Agents is like LOST. The only important things happen right at the end of each episode. Damn is it better than Season 1, but the show is still going in circles, skirting the edges of the MCU without ever diving in.
Yodhrin wrote: No, the suit they designed for the show looks fine, it just would have been nice to see it before the last 15 minutes of the final episode of the season is all.
Why though? He wasn't Daredevil yet, so why would he have the suit?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/14 03:07:50
Yodhrin wrote: No, the suit they designed for the show looks fine, it just would have been nice to see it before the last 15 minutes of the final episode of the season is all.
And how would he get it? Plot convenient reason for a blind man to know a tailor for superheroes? The way they did it is fine as it doesn't require much in the way of suspended disbelief.
Plus, as the previous poster pointed out, he was the devil of Hell's Kitchen for most of the season. They tied the suit to the character, and built him up. He's no Batman, able to afford all the toys. Nor is he spidey, who buys a morph suit off the internet.
Hmm. I just realized Ben isn't working at the Bugle. Guess Spider-man has dibs on that. So weird to see things having to be reworked everywhere because of these licensing issues.
Breotan wrote: Hmm. I just realized Ben isn't working at the Bugle. Guess Spider-man has dibs on that. So weird to see things having to be reworked everywhere because of these licensing issues.
If the production had started 6 months after it did, he would've been at the Bugle.
Yodhrin wrote: ... they only dick around with the payoffs when the movie schedule requires it of them...
Yeah. The rest of the time Agents just doesn't have payoffs.
Agents is like LOST. The only important things happen right at the end of each episode. Damn is it better than Season 1, but the show is still going in circles, skirting the edges of the MCU without ever diving in.
Wait, so it has payoffs at the end of episodes, but it doesn't have payoffs? The show has a pretty standard structure for an episodic-with-hints-of-serialisation adventure series; you can be free to not enjoy that, but something being what it is doesn't make it bad, just not to your taste. The same goes for the latter criticism; I get that Agents isn't what some people wanted, but I like the characters in the show plenty, I don't need to see Thor and Iron Man pop out of the walls every couple of weeks to enjoy the stories it's telling.
Yodhrin wrote: No, the suit they designed for the show looks fine, it just would have been nice to see it before the last 15 minutes of the final episode of the season is all.
Why though? He wasn't Daredevil yet, so why would he have the suit?
Yodhrin wrote: No, the suit they designed for the show looks fine, it just would have been nice to see it before the last 15 minutes of the final episode of the season is all.
And how would he get it? Plot convenient reason for a blind man to know a tailor for superheroes? The way they did it is fine as it doesn't require much in the way of suspended disbelief.
Plus, as the previous poster pointed out, he was the devil of Hell's Kitchen for most of the season. They tied the suit to the character, and built him up. He's no Batman, able to afford all the toys. Nor is he spidey, who buys a morph suit off the internet.
Well, yes, I know he wasn't Daredevil yet, that was rather my point. Origin stories are often boring at standard blockbuster movie length, Pajama Devil clocks in at almost 13 hours, and we only get to see the actual character the show is named for in the last 15 minutes. Given the number of Long Soulful Stare Style 5 and Poignant Silence Type 2 scenes, there's no reason they couldn't have reshuffled the order of play so the "mild manners lawyer-to-gravelly voiced hero" routine was dealt with by episode 5 or 6, and shifted the Fisk origin story and the Luke Cage/Defenders worldbuilding stuff to the latter half of the season.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Yodhrin wrote: Well, yes, I know he wasn't Daredevil yet, that was rather my point. Origin stories are often boring at standard blockbuster movie length, Pajama Devil clocks in at almost 13 hours, and we only get to see the actual character the show is named for in the last 15 minutes. Given the number of Long Soulful Stare Style 5 and Poignant Silence Type 2 scenes, there's no reason they couldn't have reshuffled the order of play so the "mild manners lawyer-to-gravelly voiced hero" routine was dealt with by episode 5 or 6, and shifted the Fisk origin story and the Luke Cage/Defenders worldbuilding stuff to the latter half of the season.
So you're saying you'd rather see a series that's just "Here's Daredevil. Kthxbye." instead of one that actually takes the time to set things up and explain it in a way that ties into the movieverse and heavily hints at Daredevil getting involved in the Avengers/vice versa? Because there's a word for that. The word is wrong.
In a film environment, yes, I'd agree. I'm sick to death of 3 hour sittings of the same redone story telling the same origin of character X. But a television series doesn't have that capability. If the series doesn't set anything up, they can't form a cohesive plotline. Daredevil is ESPECIALLY so, as, by the time he's donned the mask, most of his enemies are already set in stone.
While superhero origins have gotten stale (because seriously... they're all the same bs more or less) at the very least, we haven't seen Daredevil's on screen before. The movie skipped that entirely so it could do a bad version of a fan favorite storyline
LordofHats wrote: While superhero origins have gotten stale (because seriously... they're all the same bs more or less) at the very least, we haven't seen Daredevil's on screen before. The movie skipped that entirely so it could do a bad version of a fan favorite storyline
To be fair, the top 3 points the series set up, for me, are:
Yodhrin wrote: Wait, so it has payoffs at the end of episodes, but it doesn't have payoffs?
When the show finally has a payoff I'll let you know.
Yodhrin wrote: The show has a pretty standard structure for an episodic-with-hints-of-serialisation adventure series; you can be free to not enjoy that, but something being what it is doesn't make it bad, just not to your taste.
No. It makes it bad. Agents of SHILED, during its first season, was bad television. If it wasn't the pointless monster-of-the-week stories, it was the overblown score screaming "YOU SHOULD FEEL LIKE THIS NOW!" as it drowned everything out. The second season of AoS improved dramatically (well, really, everything from when Winter Soldier hit), and the first half of this season was well paced, using the momentum it had earned from its strong first season finish. It was finally something that was fun to watch again.
But ever since it's returned from its break it's just kinda wasted that potential, meandering around with plotlines, hinting at things without actually doing anything, and then, worst of all, falling onto a "traitors in our midst" storyline for this do-nothing, go-nowhere "Real Shield" plot that has just sucked all the energy out. If it wasn't for the Inhuman's introduction there'd just be no point.
And, again, it contniues to skirt around the edges of the MCU without getting involved. It's almost as if every episode is saying "Look at all the cool stuff happening just off screen!", and it's frustrating because I like the promise this show had, I just take issue with its execution. Now it's final episodes could improve, and in all honesty I think they will, but right now to say this show is in any way good is just silly, especially with shows like Flash on TV.
It's passable. It'll do. It could be so much more though (look at what Agent Carter did with 8 hours of screentime!).
Yodhrin wrote: The same goes for the latter criticism; I get that Agents isn't what some people wanted, but I like the characters in the show plenty, I don't need to see Thor and Iron Man pop out of the walls every couple of weeks to enjoy the stories it's telling.
Don't need them popping up every episode either - that would undermine the premise (when they're not doing it themselves), but this show feels like the red-headed stepchild of the MCU, something that's there but isn't really allowed to play with the big boys.
Yodhrin wrote: Well, yes, I know he wasn't Daredevil yet, that was rather my point. Origin stories are often boring at standard blockbuster movie length, Pajama Devil clocks in at almost 13 hours, and we only get to see the actual character the show is named for in the last 15 minutes. Given the number of Long Soulful Stare Style 5 and Poignant Silence Type 2 scenes, there's no reason they couldn't have reshuffled the order of play so the "mild manners lawyer-to-gravelly voiced hero" routine was dealt with by episode 5 or 6, and shifted the Fisk origin story and the Luke Cage/Defenders worldbuilding stuff to the latter half of the season.
Pyjama-Man didn't look as silly as the red suit. When that thing I showed up I wished he'd put the black mask on again.
Eh, I ran across it. Like anything it should be taken with a grain of salt, but I think the basic point of trying to turn Film and TV into comics is problematic still stands.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm at work so cannot watch the video, but what is the reasoning behind it being "problematic"?
People having to watch every bit of TV or Movie, usually in order, to be able to keep up with and enjoy the story. Now you need to see the films and watch the network TV show as well as Netflix to get all the angles. If you miss the order it can ruin elements. The guy in the video wasn't able to get to the theater on the first weekend but within a few days of the premiere Agents of SHIELD told the important element of Captain America: TWS. This wasn't a month or even a week later, it was within days of the film.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I definitely agree about AoS. The series is basically just fodder for people who go to see the latest Marvel Films the day they come out and it's rather bland fodder too. The only part of the series I enjoyed was the Season 1 finale, when Coolsen actually started acting like his old self again instead of... whatever whiny emo woobie had replaced him for the majority of the season. The series has a nasty habit of constantly promising that cool stuff is around the corner and then utterly failing to deliver anything cool.
Daredevil's approach is better. The larger MCU is only vaguely referenced. Anyone who has seen the films will catch it, but anyone who hasn't doesn't have to worry because the references are irrelevant to DD's plot.
Ahtman wrote: People having to watch every bit of TV or Movie, usually in order, to be able to keep up with and enjoy the story.
Ah, so Cracked is wrong. Again.
You don't need to see them. There are multiple films you can skip, let alone the various TV shows they have on. Someone who hasn't seen Agents of SHIELD isn't going to miss a damned thing in Age of Ultron, as that show will never have any impact on the movies until the day Coulson shows up again in a movie.
There are certainly important touchstone movies (Iron Man 1, Thor, First Avenger, Avengers, Winter Soldier), but that's it. No one watching Age of Ultron is going to feel like they're missing a piece of the puzzle because they haven't seen Hail to the King or Agent Carter.
LordofHats wrote: I definitely agree about AoS. The series is basically just fodder for people who go to see the latest Marvel Films the day they come out and it's rather bland fodder too.
I disagree. Other than the (unavoidable) change that came with Winter Soldier, outside of Coulson and Fury AoS has done very little with its spot within the MCU. It's not fodder for those who have seen the movie the day they come out because show basically has nothing to do with the MCU. It skirts around the edges, always looking in but never getting more than its toes wet. It got splashed when the Helicarriers landed in the Potomac, but that, as I said, was unavoidable.
LordofHats wrote: The only part of the series I enjoyed was the Season 1 finale, when Coolsen actually started acting like his old self again instead of... whatever whiny emo woobie had replaced him for the majority of the season. The series has a nasty habit of constantly promising that cool stuff is around the corner and then utterly failing to deliver anything cool.
But here I agree. The entire show is setup for something that's going to be cool. I'm just waiting for that day to arrive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/15 12:39:33
I think Vanessa's story arch was the best developed I've seen in any television series. They stayed true to her character and didn't try to change her or make her contrived in any way.
Vanessa was a great character. It's weird to have a show where the show's main villain has a really interesting love story that develops over several episodes.
I'm not a comic reader, so maybe I don't know as much about it, but I had one major complaint about the season:
Spoiler:
I just couldn't buy Fisk's character. Don't get me wrong, Vincent D'Onofrio kills the role, acting is perfect there. But, we get the impression that he's this ruthless, cold, calculating dude, but the only exposure we have to him in the show is when he starts with Vanessa. And after that point, he's an emotional manchild. "You interrupted my date, I'm going to kill you!" "You talked to my mommy, I'm going to kill you!" "My girlfriend is in the hospital, I'm going to ignore everyone and everything!" "My friend is dead, I'm going to kill everyone!"
It's not bad, per se, but I have trouble believing this is the guy who managed to take control of an entire city and ran an extensive criminal organization when he can't handle a single dinner date going poorly. I kept expecting Wesley or Owlsley to reveal themselves as the true brains behind the operation, because every time I saw Fisk, I didn't see someone who was capable of it.
Other than that, I loved it. Casting is perfect, cinematography is top notch, probably the best choreographed fight scenes I've seen in ages, and all the dialogue felt good, very little felt forced or just for blatant exposition. Can't wait for the rest of the Defenders, or just S2 of this
Finished, and wow, probably the best TV series I've seen in years (Musketeers comes close, but is totally different). Pacing, directing, casting, acting, writing, design and tone were all pretty much spot on, and there is a lot left hanging for series 2.
Spoiler:
The final fight with Fisk was great, easily the most brutal and one of the best in the MCU so far. The red suit is suitably awesome, although I was a little sad Fisk didn't get his traditional white jacket as well.
Speaking of Fisk, I can't think of the last time I've seen a bad guy set up so well and given just as much depth as the protagonists. At times, it's like you're watching The Wilson Fisk show, and some guy in a mask keeps cameoing.
I'm guessing The Hand will show up s little more later on, possibly with Electra in tow, and maybe even crossing over in to Iron Fist at some point. Likewise, I don't believe The Owl is down and out, especially now Fisk is (temporarily) behind bars.
I was surprised Vanessa survived, I imagined her death would be the final step in creating the Kingpin we all know and make fat jokes about.
Yeah, I'm hoping Punisher shows up at some point. Not only would he fit tonally, but his ruthleness put up against Daredevil's no-killing rule would be a nice element to introduce.
