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The Riptide, Battlesuits and Hammerheads are more than capable of it. You haven't addressed the elephant in the room. You just stepped on all the mice and declared victory.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Yes, if you do it right only one or two units can take shots at you. You plan it right your pods can block terrain, give other units cover and cut his army in half.
Remember you can get a pod into a 6"x6" Area safety. Also with the Mi9ssle Pod can help you deal with softer units. Target priority is also the key. My Plasma Guard is going to hit the Riptide, the pod any bubble wrap get a pie plate. The second Sternguard hit an HQ, the third the Broadsides and drop two more Pie Plates. If dice go well you just got rid of or at least crippled three big units.
Now think about 5 or 7 Pods landing on Turn one.

Martel732, what percentage of armies you play against have riptides in?

"Its never that simple" why? i say plasma, you say he'll bubble rap, i say heavy flamer the bubble rap instead, you say its not that simple. i don't think you care about any of our advise. Your too anti Tau to even consider anything.

Taffy17 wrote:
Martel732, what percentage of armies you play against have riptides in?

"Its never that simple" why? i say plasma, you say he'll bubble rap, i say heavy flamer the bubble rap instead, you say its not that simple. i don't think you care about any of our advise. Your too anti Tau to even consider anything.

I'd say Tau come up about 1:7 games. Enough to be aggravating, not enough to tailor against. We've got one diehard Tau and a several who dabble.

I say bubblewrap because they do when there is 10 X plasma sternguard in play. If there were 10 X melta, they may not bother.

I'd love to flamer the bubblewrap every game, but I don't know to bring it every game. Unless you think I should bring that many flamers to EVERY game. Flamers are very nice, but useless against mech lists and things like Deathwing.

I am listening. I just don't have all these tools you are proposing every game. I never use plasma sternguard because I think they are overcosted in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Yes, if you do it right only one or two units can take shots at you. You plan it right your pods can block terrain, give other units cover and cut his army in half.
Remember you can get a pod into a 6"x6" Area safety. Also with the Mi9ssle Pod can help you deal with softer units. Target priority is also the key. My Plasma Guard is going to hit the Riptide, the pod any bubble wrap get a pie plate. The second Sternguard hit an HQ, the third the Broadsides and drop two more Pie Plates. If dice go well you just got rid of or at least crippled three big units.
Now think about 5 or 7 Pods landing on Turn one.

You can't fire the deathwind launcher the turn you arrive. And that bubblewrap just put you out of plasma double tap range. Or does no one play that way in your group?

What's your TAC list then that you use against all opponents?

Martel732 wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Martel732, what percentage of armies you play against have riptides in?

"Its never that simple" why? i say plasma, you say he'll bubble rap, i say heavy flamer the bubble rap instead, you say its not that simple. i don't think you care about any of our advise. Your too anti Tau to even consider anything.

I'd say Tau come up about 1:7 games. Enough to be aggravating, not enough to tailor against. We've got one diehard Tau and a several who dabble.

I say bubblewrap because they do when there is 10 X plasma sternguard in play. If there were 10 X melta, they may not bother.

I'd love to flamer the bubblewrap every game, but I don't know to bring it every game. Unless you think I should bring that many flamers to EVERY game. Flamers are very nice, but useless against mech lists and things like Deathwing.

I am listening. I just don't have all these tools you are proposing every game. I never use plasma sternguard because I think they are overcosted in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Yes, if you do it right only one or two units can take shots at you. You plan it right your pods can block terrain, give other units cover and cut his army in half.
Remember you can get a pod into a 6"x6" Area safety. Also with the Mi9ssle Pod can help you deal with softer units. Target priority is also the key. My Plasma Guard is going to hit the Riptide, the pod any bubble wrap get a pie plate. The second Sternguard hit an HQ, the third the Broadsides and drop two more Pie Plates. If dice go well you just got rid of or at least crippled three big units.
Now think about 5 or 7 Pods landing on Turn one.

You can't fire the deathwind launcher the turn you arrive.

But you now have the option of taking one squad with free Combi-Weapons and two Vanguard Squads with free power weapons. It is not hard to turn Assault Squads into Vanguard


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes you can, 7th Edition change to Drop Pods thay come it at Combat Speed.

Taffy17 wrote:
What's your TAC list then you use against all opponents?

I'm still refining my dual Stormraven/Dante list, so my primary 1850 list has been:

HQ: Mephiston manifesting divination
HQ: Level 2 Libby, jump pack, valor's edge manifesting sanguinius

Troop: 5 tac marines, plasma, combi-plas
Transport: Las/plas razor, dozer blade, heavy armor
Troop: 5 tac marines, plamsa, combi-plas
Transport: Las/plas razor, dozer blade, heavy armor

Elite: DC X 10 w/ 2 power fist, 10X jump packs
Level 2 libby joins this squad

Elite: Sternguard X 9
Transport: Rhino, dozer blade, heavy armor
Mephiston joins this squad

Elite: Furioso dreadnought, frag cannon, melta gun
Transport: Drop pod

Fast Attack: 5 X bikers, combi-grav, 2 X grav gun

Fast Attack: 3 X attack bikes, 3 X MM

Heavy: Fast tri-las pred, dozer blade




Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Yes you can, 7th Edition change to Drop Pods thay come it at Combat Speed."

So the deathwind launcher isn't completely useless? That's a thing.

"But you now have the option of taking one squad with free Combi-Weapons and two Vanguard Squads with free power weapons. It is not hard to turn Assault Squads into Vanguard"

I haven't coughed up for that book yet. I'm not sure I will. I'm not as hot on that formation as some others. I feel that power weapons are not adding much to my cause in general.

How many points is that and how many riptides are you planning on going against?

That list looks pretty Riptide proof.

To make it even better I'd put the sternguard in a pod and swap the attack bikes for an assault squad with 2 melta guns and combi and pod, would be much more effective against Tau. Would save you points as well.

Mephiston should own that riptide especially if he has psychic shriek.

Taffy17 wrote:
How many points is that and how many riptides are you planning on going against?

That list looks pretty Riptide proof.

To make it even better I'd put the sternguard in a pod and swap the attack bikes for an assault squad with 2 melta guns and combi and pod, would be much more effective against Tau. Would save you points as well.

Mephiston should own that riptide especially if he has psychic shriek.

BA can't get telepathy. So no invis, either.

Biomancy will have to do then, either way, your list looks pretty riptide proof.

what did you think of my comments on your list about the sternguard pod and assault squad?

I'd drop the Assault squad and dread first turn, mephiston can come in and mop up, saves that rhino getting shot to pieces and having him foot slogging

Taffy17 wrote:
Biomancy will have to do then, either way, your list looks pretty riptide proof.

what did you think of my comments on your list about the sternguard pod and assault squad?

I'd drop the Assault squad and dread first turn, mephiston can come in and mop up, saves that rhino getting shot to pieces and having him foot slogging

Well, actually I've been giving Mephiston divination. It has worked pretty well so far.

I can see trying the triple pods. I wonder how it will work against the field.

The conclusion that I've pretty much run into is that there is no more such thing as TAC in 40K. With formations, dataslates, multiple CADs, and allies out the wazoo its just impossible to try to counter everything.

Martel specifically says he doesn't run into Tau enough to tailor for it. Well once you take that attitude you have pretty much accepted that the Tau is the Rock to your Scissors.

If your not willing to tailor for it, well, you just arn't going to kill it. That pretty much is for anything in the game. You just cant bring knives to fight off an air strike.

Flamers vs terminators? Horde cultists vs Armor Co. There are just some match-ups that under normal situations are not going to win.

Biomancy gives your a lot of AP2 if you want more of it, and things like Iron Arm will help.

Once first turn is up he'll still have to worry about either mephiston, assault squad or dread landing right next to his riptide on any turn. Also you really, really, really don't want to be driving across the table towards a Tau gunline in a Rhino.

But like i said, your list looks pretty riptide proof anyway.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The conclusion that I've pretty much run into is that there is no more such thing as TAC in 40K. With formations, dataslates, multiple CADs, and allies out the wazoo its just impossible to try to counter everything.

Martel specifically says he doesn't run into Tau enough to tailor for it. Well once you take that attitude you have pretty much accepted that the Tau is the Rock to your Scissors.

If your not willing to tailor for it, well, you just arn't going to kill it. That pretty much is for anything in the game. You just cant bring knives to fight off an air strike.

Flamers vs terminators? Horde cultists vs Armor Co. There are just some match-ups that under normal situations are not going to win.

Yeah, but that isn't Martel's fault, that is bad game design. I don't blame the Tau players who play the Riptide, I blame the writers for creating such over powered nonsense. I just don't understand why it is so hard for some people to just accept that this game has awful, horrible balance and they happen to benefit from it. I don't think you are a bad player if you take overpowered units, there is other criteria for that. But if you take an overpowered list against someone who isn't looking for the tournament level, you are just looking to wipe someone off the table and not play an actual game.

Taffy17 wrote:
Biomancy gives your a lot of AP2 if you want more of it, and things like Iron Arm will help.

Once first turn is up he'll still have to worry about either mephiston, assault squad or dread landing right next to his riptide on any turn. Also you really, really, really don't want to be driving across the table towards a Tau gunline in a Rhino.

But like i said, your list looks pretty riptide proof anyway.

Now that you mention it, I CAN customize what disciplines I choose each game. Against Tau, I have moved the Rhino in the shooting phase on the first turn for 24" movement. Against other lists, it works with the razors to give cover for DC.

How to kill any unit in the game:

1) Have right units, equipment, and numbers in list

2) Move units into a position they can use that equipment

3) Have luck

I don't think the question is what will kill a Riptide. We all understand that lots of AP 2 will take them down. We know that Close Combat with (almost) anything that's got a power fist will take them down. We know psychic powers will take them down.

It's more that it takes too many of these things to kill it to kill one reliably than anything else.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
The conclusion that I've pretty much run into is that there is no more such thing as TAC in 40K. With formations, dataslates, multiple CADs, and allies out the wazoo its just impossible to try to counter everything.

Martel specifically says he doesn't run into Tau enough to tailor for it. Well once you take that attitude you have pretty much accepted that the Tau is the Rock to your Scissors.

If your not willing to tailor for it, well, you just arn't going to kill it. That pretty much is for anything in the game. You just cant bring knives to fight off an air strike.

Flamers vs terminators? Horde cultists vs Armor Co. There are just some match-ups that under normal situations are not going to win.

Yeah, but that isn't Martel's fault, that is bad game design. I don't blame the Tau players who play the Riptide, I blame the writers for creating such over powered nonsense. I just don't understand why it is so hard for some people to just accept that this game has awful, horrible balance and they happen to benefit from it. I don't think you are a bad player if you take overpowered units, there is other criteria for that. But if you take an overpowered list against someone who isn't looking for the tournament level, you are just looking to wipe someone off the table and not play an actual game.

Its catastrophic game design and one that ultimately will spell the doom of 40K. Once they started with the mentality of DLC is awesome, you loose all sense of balance. Its because they have to make the DLC available to everyone otherwise you make no money. But unfortunately the balance of the seperate factions make new content either meh to stupidly over powered when combined with forces it wasn't originally designed to work with.

GW have really bought into a business mentality that I don't think 40K will survive. 40K has lost all identity, it really is now a pay to win type of game for new players. The universe of 40K is still highly enjoyable and engaging. The tabletop is just a disaster.

Great it only took three pages to blame GW one this one.

SGTPozy wrote:
Gotta love how Martel has to have his own special thread

I was happy when I got mine for the MCs.

Grav weapons make my Riptides sad.

Ironically, a DK with a Gatling Psilencer kills Riptides fairly well, all the 'Tide has to do is fail one save, then poof!

SJ

 Anpu42 wrote:
Great it only took three pages to blame GW one this one.

Well, it is their fault in the end.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Great it only took three pages to blame GW one this one.

Well, it is their fault in the end.

They are getting better, especially if you look at the last half dozen Codex.
Both the Eldar and Tau have issues, but those are considered the remaining broken ones from what I can tell.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Ironically, a DK with a Gatling Psilencer kills Riptides fairly well, all the 'Tide has to do is fail one save, then poof!

SJ

Have to pass the requisite psychic check, not to hard. Has to hit, gonna hit about 9 times. Wounds on 6's, ouch that takes you down to one wound a turn while shooting. They have to fail a 2+ leaving you with one Riptide in every 6 turns...Not fairly well at all. DK has a better time just running up and forcing it in the face with its melee weapons.

From what I've seen from what people and you say about your gaming group.

GET SOME TERRAIN AND USE LOS BLOCKING COVER.

That is all.

How about the HQ LRBT Vanquisher from IA:1 2ed? Load'em up with S8, AP2, Instant Death, Beast Hunter shells and watch those Riptides go poof from across the table!

Vanquisher tanks with Beast Hunter shells.

You can buy them in a 400-point allied detachment.

Do riptides really put out that much damage? They should only be getting around 2-3 kills a turn, especially if you turn off their markerlight support. Ignoring them is an option unless they are sitting on an objective.
If the riptide is getting more kills than this then your squads are not spread out enough.

Kill the markerlights, broadsides, crisis suits and fire warriors first. They in my experience deal most of the damage in a tau army. They are also the units who will be holding most of the objectives. Once they are gone the riptide can be dealt with at your leisure.

I think a drop pod list would do fine against tau, as they lack mobility in large numbers, especially with objective secured units. Drop those pods on the objectives and watch the tau struggle to keep up with your VPs.

Let the sternguard use their kraken shots against the firewarriors to mow them down fast. And any melta squads to shooting their T8 suits.

The best shooting option for killing riptides in the book is grav bikes imo. Slightly more than 100 points gets you 3 bikes with 2 grav guns and a combi grav.

Have you considered an LRC btw? When I play my DW against tau my 2 landraiders are the difference between victory or slaughter. Tau cannot deal with them at range (besides 1 hammerhead shot a turn, which is statistically not too bad), and they will grant whatever squad inside (like a cc equipped DC squad) total immunity to the riptide. It also has the great effect of providing a mobile wall for other units to advance behind (say.....a unit of grav gun bikes?).

 Quickjager wrote:
Making a thread targeting someone specifically reeks of attempted bullying there is nothing in this thread that could not have been discussed in an existing one. Frankly its disgusting.

When I created the thread that honestly wasn't my attempt. I genuinely wanted to offer constructive ideas.
I know I haven't suggested much just yet, I am still planning and had to sleep last night.

I apologise Martel if you feel in anyway bullied as a result of my thread creation.

 Smokeydubbs wrote:
From what I've seen from what people and you say about your gaming group.

GET SOME TERRAIN AND USE LOS BLOCKING COVER.

That is all.

We use lots of terrain. Just not very much blocks LOS. Of course, LOS blocking cover also hurts drop lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Do riptides really put out that much damage? They should only be getting around 2-3 kills a turn, especially if you turn off their markerlight support. Ignoring them is an option unless they are sitting on an objective.
If the riptide is getting more kills than this then your squads are not spread out enough.

Kill the markerlights, broadsides, crisis suits and fire warriors first. They in my experience deal most of the damage in a tau army. They are also the units who will be holding most of the objectives. Once they are gone the riptide can be dealt with at your leisure.

I think a drop pod list would do fine against tau, as they lack mobility in large numbers, especially with objective secured units. Drop those pods on the objectives and watch the tau struggle to keep up with your VPs.

Let the sternguard use their kraken shots against the firewarriors to mow them down fast. And any melta squads to shooting their T8 suits.

The best shooting option for killing riptides in the book is grav bikes imo. Slightly more than 100 points gets you 3 bikes with 2 grav guns and a combi grav.

Have you considered an LRC btw? When I play my DW against tau my 2 landraiders are the difference between victory or slaughter. Tau cannot deal with them at range (besides 1 hammerhead shot a turn, which is statistically not too bad), and they will grant whatever squad inside (like a cc equipped DC squad) total immunity to the riptide. It also has the great effect of providing a mobile wall for other units to advance behind (say.....a unit of grav gun bikes?).

I have a LRC, but I'm likely never going to put it in my TAC list. I kinda hate Land Raiders in general because of their overcostedness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boniface wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Making a thread targeting someone specifically reeks of attempted bullying there is nothing in this thread that could not have been discussed in an existing one. Frankly its disgusting.

When I created the thread that honestly wasn't my attempt. I genuinely wanted to offer constructive ideas.
I know I haven't suggested much just yet, I am still planning and had to sleep last night.

I apologise Martel if you feel in anyway bullied as a result of my thread creation.

No, no. I said up above that I didn't care about the name.

"If the riptide is getting more kills than this then your squads are not spread out enough. "

I'd have to sit down and think about this. This is one reason I don't like to deep strike with jump packs, though.

7th edition landraiders are much better than before, now that it can hold an objective (and normally keep objective secured stuff away with its size too) they are more worth those 250 points than ever before.

To be honest I consider them to be a counter to most tau lists.

If you haven't tried it since last edition, then I would recommend giving it a second chance.