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the_scotsman wrote:

Get 3x Divination Primaris Psykers. Get the targeted Rending power. Then say "hey there invisible Wraithknight, have 9 AP
2 wounds"

Actually, that particular power would be good against a wraithknight, but not against an invisible wraithknight. Rending triggers off the To-Wound roll, not the To-Hit roll. So, against an invisible wraithknight, you'd have to get a 6 to hit, then follow that up with a 6 to wound. Or, to put it in better perspective, 20 Guardsmen in rapid fire range(12") would shoot 40 shots. Of those 40 shots, they'd score about 6.664 shots. Of those 6.664 shots, 1.11 would wound at AP2. Then the wraithknight gets to try FnP and any invuln/cover save they have. So it would end up averaging less than a wound per round. Even if you twin-linked them, it wouldn't be that impressive. It would change it to 2.03 wounds before cover/invuln saves & feel no pain.

Alternatively, if he WASN'T invisible, it would go like this:

40 Shots becomes 20 hits, which becomes 3.32 wounds before cover/invuln saves & feel no pain.
If twin-linked,
40 Shots becomes 30 hits, which becomes 5 wounds before cover/invuln saves & feel no pain.

That said, the latter would probably actually put about 2 unsaved wounds on the WK, which is certainly impressive for lasguns, but you have to have 20 prescienced guardsmen within 12" to make that happen. It would work decently enough if you could get a lot more guardsmen close, but it would have to be a huge mob of lasguns to take down the WK in one turn. At 24", it'd have to be about 180 guardsmen, or 270 conscripts. It's probably cheaper to use lascannons or missile launchers.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Um, yeah, 295+ points totally crushes 90 points. But the 90 points still contributed.
3 squads of demo vets in 270 points, take 27 attacks with melta bombs, hits with half, wounds with half, and 4 to 5 wounds get past feel no pain.
90 points for 10 dudes with melta bombs is a really good deal. I'd take melta bombs on everyone who can take them, and just keep it in mind. I wouldn't charge at the wraith knight in hopes of doing 6 wounds; but I would throw 3 infantry squads at a wraith knight if it only had 1 wound left.
I'd throw 2 vet squads at wraith knight if he only had 2 wounds left.

-Matt

The point is that their cheap cost doesn't make them a viable counter or even particularly useful against Wraithknights.

A single squad is barely going to put a dent in a WK, and trying to get two or three 10-man 6'' move T3 squads into combat with a jump-unit isn't going to work against someone who isn't an idiot.

Which then means that vet squads become an area denial weapon. Wraith Knights aren't doing much to guard infantry unless they get into combat.
Also, in his game, the conscripts held up for 3 turns; that gives you plenty of time to get multiple bombs on the target, if you had bombs around.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
"A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses." Quoted from the book. There is a limitation for shooting attacks, but not for melee attacks other than just 1 per model.

You quoted another limitation that has nothing to do what we are discussing. The rule stating only 1 grenade OF ANY TYPE can be used by a unit is specifically bolded and emphasized for the entire grenade section right In. The beginning and specifically states any type of grenade which includes melta bombs.

Again is there an exception specifically for meltabombs to the below quoted rule anywhere in the rule book.
“Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase”
This is not the shooting phase this is ANY phase. any phase includes assault.
The same rule pertains to krak grenades used in assault.
And yet krak grenades can not be used in melee by more then 1 model.

So I am asking again where is the meltabombs exception?
There is none.

Where do you get the idea that the rule for "throwing" applies to Krak grenades in CC?

Is slapping a shaped charge up a tailpipe or on a monster "throwing" it? I, and I believe most people, do not believe that is either RAW or RAI.

Marines have always had the ability to pop tanks with massed Krak in CC (if they get there).

Same concept.

Bharring wrote:
Where do you get the idea that the rule for "throwing" applies to Krak grenades in CC?

Is slapping a shaped charge up a tailpipe or on a monster "throwing" it? I, and I believe most people, do not believe that is either RAW or RAI.

Marines have always had the ability to pop tanks with massed Krak in CC (if they get there).

Same concept.

Where is this "throwing" rule you mentioned it doesn't appear in my rule book?
The reason this rule applies to krak grenades is because it's in the first paragraph in the grenade section, bolded and specifically states RAW "any grenade" and "any phase". That statement leaves no room for interpretation it's all phases and all grenades. Krak grenades have been played in my area as 1 per unit in any phase, not sure what rules you've been playing... Same concept

gungo wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Where do you get the idea that the rule for "throwing" applies to Krak grenades in CC?

Is slapping a shaped charge up a tailpipe or on a monster "throwing" it? I, and I believe most people, do not believe that is either RAW or RAI.

Marines have always had the ability to pop tanks with massed Krak in CC (if they get there).

Same concept.

Where is this "throwing" rule you mentioned it doesn't appear in my rule book?
The reason this rule applies to krak grenades is because it's in the first paragraph in the grenade section, bolded and specifically states RAW "any grenade" and "any phase". That statement leaves no room for interpretation it's all phases and all grenades. Krak grenades have been played in my area as 1 per unit in any phase, not sure what rules you've been playing... Same concept

You're ignoring the part about "throwing". It is commonly understood that in melee, they are not thrown, but instead used as a melee attack. When using them as a melee attack, eat model that's using them may make 1 attack, and only 1 attack. But because they're not being thrown, they are not limited to only 1 model using them.

A wraithknight only gets 5 attacks on the charge, not 6.

My $.02

gungo wrote:

 Bonachinonin wrote:

gungo wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Don't forget you can melta bomb a wraith knight.
1 Attack (per model with melta bombs) at S8 AP1 and Init 1.
This makes Demolitions pretty dangerous. If you sprinkle in melta bombs everywhere (I usually do), you could have a lowly sarg finish off a mighty wraith knight.

Meltabombs are considered a grenades in the rulebook.
Is there some special rule I missed that allows every model in a unit to use grenades such as Meltabombs?

“Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase”
any phase including assault. The same rule pertains to krak grenades used in assault

That is only in regards to throwing grenades. You can only "shoot" or overwatch with one grenade, and meltabombs cannot be thrown. In melee, everyone can use however many they have. He means to go and hit the wraithknight with a bunch of meltabombs in melee. It is not a good tactic. You will cause 2-3 wounds maybe, and he gets fnp, then you get stomped. It is also expensive equipping everyone with demolitions.

Again I don't see the exception in the ruleboook for Meltabombs. There is no special category listing for throwing grenades .
If what you are saying is the case then every guard unit would be able to use krak grenades in assault phase And they can't. Meltabombs don't have an exception to the above rule I quoted that states you can only use one grande during any phase per unit. If you are able to find an exception to that rule in the rulebook Id love to see it.

Page 180 of big rule book, "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" and page 181 "melta bombs are cumbersome devices. Melta bombs cannot be used to make a shooting attack."
Sufficient?

My example was what I pulled last game-the wraithknight charged my conscript bubble wrap and stomped the priest, causing a sweep.

I had a 50 man blob beside him with 5x Lascannons. I used the rending power, prescience on the blob, then FRFSRF.

The average you get from 150 TL shots was around 47, which is around 7.5 wounds to save.

It was an edge case, but damn it was hilarious watching the rage.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Page 180 of big rule book, "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" and page 181 "melta bombs are cumbersome devices. Melta bombs cannot be used to make a shooting attack."
Sufficient?

The "Unusual Grenades" sidebar specifies that unless otherwise stated, "these grenades cannot be thrown or used as a melee weapon." Why refer to both throwing and melee there if one's a subset of the other?

Also, all sections on grenade types reinforce the "one model per unit" restriction in the Shooting portion, but make no mention of this in the Assault portion.

The shooting section of each grenade's description is also the only time the rules refer to a model throwing a grenade, and specifies this is rather than using another shooting weapon.

Finally, the "Vehicles, Gun Emplacements and Monstrous Creatures" section states that grenades can be used against these models, but "have to be clamped in place to maximise effect" - therefore indicating that in Assault, grenades are not thrown.

Sufficient?

Aelyn wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Page 180 of big rule book, "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" and page 181 "melta bombs are cumbersome devices. Melta bombs cannot be used to make a shooting attack."
Sufficient?

The "Unusual Grenades" sidebar specifies that unless otherwise stated, "these grenades cannot be thrown or used as a melee weapon." Why refer to both throwing and melee there if one's a subset of the other?

Also, all sections on grenade types reinforce the "one model per unit" restriction in the Shooting portion, but make no mention of this in the Assault portion.

The shooting section of each grenade's description is also the only time the rules refer to a model throwing a grenade, and specifies this is rather than using another shooting weapon.

Finally, the "Vehicles, Gun Emplacements and Monstrous Creatures" section states that grenades can be used against these models, but "have to be clamped in place to maximise effect" - therefore indicating that in Assault, grenades are not thrown.

Sufficient?

Not really, I'm not terribly sure what you're saying, I'm just telling gungo that there is a rule that excludes melta from being thrown, and decided to throw the other rule quote for good measure though in foresight it was a bad idea since it gave you the implication that I was saying that only 1 melta bomb in melee per turn when I was infact implying only 1 grenade can be thrown a turn, and melta bombs cannot be thrown at all.