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gungo wrote:

Way to much defending of eldar broken codex when countless battlereps have shown that ultra competitive eldar cheese lists like the above are tabling most armies no matter how well built or well played they are.

But hey keep telling the originally poster it's his fault he can't beat the eldar list that tabled him no matter what he takes in an uncomped league game.

I'm not defending the eldar player. As a matter of fact, I pointedly said it was in poor taste to bring two WKs to a league game. But as an Eldar player who also plays other factions, I can comfortably say that people are overreacting to WKs in a general sense. I'd take the list I put together above against that guy's Eldar list, and I think I'd win. They can be beaten, and the only things single-shot D-weapons are good for is destroying MCs and Mech. It's not efficient at targetting multi-model deathstars or other multi-model units because it only has a single shot. Yeah, they can put out 8 S6 shots if they also took dual scatter lasers. Who cares? It's IG blobs that get their cover saves and armor saves. So when all is said and done, with all that flash, he kills maybe 3 infantry models aside from what he used his D-cannon on? Is it good against mech and MCs? Absofreakinglutely. It's incredible against them. But it's not good against everything.

But there are plenty of armies that actually are well suited to taking flexible lists that are more than capable of dropping wraithknights. IG / Astra Militarum happens to be one of them. The OP didn't ask if Eldar were overpowered or not. He asked if anyone had advice on how to approach competing with them NOW, using the army he has available to him. I assure you that your negativity isn't doing that.

Few dedicated assault units strike higher the int5 and able to take 6 wounds off a 3+, 5+ fnp, and possibly 5++ T8 gargantuan.
Let's use your example of a squad of 5 assault marines. The non melee str d wraith knight will likely be able to charge them just based on its movement abilities. Which means an automatic hitting hammer of wraith at str10 ap-, followed by 6 str 10 ap2 atks at int 5 before the assault marines have a chance to hit back. This is over 3 out of 5 dead marines before they can even swing if the sergeant has a power fist he is swinging at int1 at the same time as stomps and that last 1+ marine is likely dead based on ave rolls with no rerolls to hit (such as wraith host or prescience) or any other buffs.
With a str10 hammer of wraith atk followed by 6 str 10 ap2 int5 atks yes most dedicated assault units are getting murdered before they swing.

However if you were lucky enough to make it past that onslaught to int1 (and were lucky enough not to get feared or blinded by a wraithknights Invul shield from overwatch or shooting to not reduce you to ws1, and yes I know the str d version doesn't have the shield) You get the luxury of getting stomped in the face and dying anyway, even if your powerfists and/or str d atks such as knorne demon do finally go off. So unless your wielding a str d melee weapon faster then int1 your dedicated assault unit is going to die regardless to a ~295pt unit.

But I'd love to see your example an equal cost assault unit able to live through that charge from a wraithknight that's not even the melee variant that's even worse then the example I gave above.

Gungo,

CC units just from SM that can 'make it past' I5:
Min ASMs: 98.8% chance!
Honor Guard
Command Squad
Crusader Squad
Tac Termies
Assault Termies (either kit)
3+ -man Bike squad
3+ Assault Centurions
Shield Eternal HQ
CC/CW Scouts

I'd have to run the numbers, but I think Dreadnoughts won't quite make it.

Aside from Dreadnoughts and HQs, are there any CC units in the SM codex that *won't* survive until they strike?

And that's from a relatively shooty 'Dex.

And most of them cost so very much less than a WK.

Units the WK actually can completely wipe in one round tend to be a lot less common. Things like individual T5 MCs and such.

So how do you keep saying the WK kills most CC units before they even swing? Sure they hard counter a lot of CC, but rarely wipes units before they get to attack. Devastating attacks, but not too many of them.

I don't consider a str 10 HoW and 6x str10 ap2 int 5 atks followed by d3 stomps not that many attacks.
Especially on a gargantuan creature that can't be locked in combat and has multiple ways of obtaining rerolls to hit at ws4, causes fear and potentially causes blind on all enemies within 6in when it makes an Invul save.

I did mispoke when I said it will kill most units (I was comparing models not units) before they swing however most units will still take multiple casualties (3+) before they swing, some units will not survive and any unit that does will take significantly more casualties when the knight stomps.

Don't forget you can melta bomb a wraith knight.
1 Attack (per model with melta bombs) at S8 AP1 and Init 1.
This makes Demolitions pretty dangerous. If you sprinkle in melta bombs everywhere (I usually do), you could have a lowly sarg finish off a mighty wraith knight.

Demo vets get 7 hits with melta bombs (after the WK kills three with its higher initiative). Hitting on 4's is ~3.5 hits, wounding on 4's is 1.7 wounds, FNP drops it down to 1.

So, 1 wound on average, then the squad dies.

EDIT- A 5-man assault squad isn't surviving a round of combat with a charging Wraithknight. You gents aren't factoring in the stomps.

gungo wrote:

But I'd love to see your example an equal cost assault unit able to live through that charge from a wraithknight that's not even the melee variant that's even worse then the example I gave above.

See, this is where you're thinking about it wrong. I don't have to KILL the wraithknight to BEAT the wraithknight.

In the army list I provided earlier, I suggested taking 50 conscripts and a commisar in a squad. This is 175 points. They're S3 T3 goons with almost no skill in shooting or melee, but there are 51 models there and with the commisar they're basically fearless(Just shoot 1 guy per turn). If you charge a wraithknight with 51 models, it's going to take awhile for it to chew through all of those, simply due to limited attacks. With stomps and melee attacks, it will likely take the wraithknight 3+ turns to chew through all those models. You can increase this time by having the unit strung out across the board before you charge, making it take more rounds for them all to get within stomping range. In the meantime, while you've disabled hundreds of points of his list at half the cost to yourself, you deal with the rest of his army while it doesn't have WK support.

Disabling a WK for the entire game is almost as good as killing it, and costs far less resources.

Gungo,
I think we're closer in opinion than we seem. 6 attacks + HoW is a lot of attacks when seeing if it can do damage, but not a lot of attacks when looking for something to wipe whole squads at initiative.

Stomp makes tarpitting harder. I don't have experience with how well Conscripts can hold a GMC, though.

Do note, however, that casualties from Stomp scale from models targeted. It'll kill fewer than it hits on average, too. It'll reliably chew through hordes, but it won't reliably remove the last few models ((5/6)^n before factoring in saves?). Will probably kill the last one model, last two is unlikely, last 3 is a little better than even odds. But if there are 40 models in CC, it'll remove a handful or three. So its a poor finisher.

WK is brutal at CC. Would be true even if costed appropriately. But its best at low-quantity high-quality targets. Without Stomp, tarpitting would work well. I think I'd try mostly to keep cheap hordes between it and where it wants to be? Its "low"-ish number of super deadly attacks is best soaked by something that is equally boned by s5ap5. Such as lots of Guardsmen. Killing one is too much an investment and leaving one HP is just like not hurting it.

Its like the Riptide in some respects. Usually, you don't have the firepower to kill it. But its too killy to ignore. Kill everything else around it, and mitigate it where you can.

I haven't run the numbers, but how many Guardsmen would you need to likely tie it up for a round? I think 5 would do it, if you had any LD shenanigans (you'll be losing by too much each round). The situation might present itself.

I still think double WK is too ugly for most armies. But there are some things that can help.

As for Storm, it'll be ugly. It is WC3/4, and not terribly long range, so it should be costly to get off. And doesn't ignore cover. But I'd advise against banking on DtW. Even with a Psyker in the unit. Even if it were a ML4. It needs far too many dice. Probably aim at denying anything else they try. The Farseer should die next turn, though.

gungo wrote:
He wraithknight can fire 1 or 2 str d at the manticore and still fire 8 str 6 shots any chimera chassis or infantry. A suncsnnon wraith knight annihilates hordes of course no eldar takes that version why because it's completely redundant. So claiming a d cannon knight is only marginally decent vs hordes at range with two scatterlasers which it can fire at as many targets as it wants. Is hardly a detriment to the wraithknight; with eldritch storm and scatter lasers, hemlocks and dscythe wraiths hordes even super durable necrons are a joke to eldar. And the worst part is the units in eldar lists that are ideally suited for hordes or infantry are just as good at killing light vehicles and sometimes heavy vehicles. Str6 scatterlasers destroy av10/11, dscythe guard or super ranged hemlocks strip hull points off the heaviest armour with ease.

No a d cannon wraith knight is quite capable of dealing with most infantry it just doesn't need too. And with5x int5 str 10 ap2 with stomp and hammer of wraith it's easily one of the best assault units in the game able to kill most dedicated assault units before they can hit back.

Way to much defending of eldar broken codex when countless battlereps have shown that ultra competitive eldar cheese lists like the above are tabling most armies no matter how well built or well played they are. I haven't seen or read a single battlerep or played a game where if the eldar player goes all our he doesn't win unless the game is heavily comped, the person is list tailoring against the eldar and has good luck with rolls.

But hey keep telling the originally poster it's his fault he can't beat the eldar list that tabled him no matter what he takes in an uncomped league game.

So, your contribution to this tactical thread about beating eldar, is that you can't and you shouldn't try?

Or did you actually have something of value to share?

Edit - most of my Stomp stuff is wrong, I think. How many Stomp templates does a GMC drop? And can they drop on top of eachother?

I will post the hard eldar list when I get back from work. Hopefully that will help with the discussion.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Demo vets get 7 hits with melta bombs (after the WK kills three with its higher initiative). Hitting on 4's is ~3.5 hits, wounding on 4's is 1.7 wounds, FNP drops it down to 1.

So, 1 wound on average, then the squad dies.

EDIT- A 5-man assault squad isn't surviving a round of combat with a charging Wraithknight. You gents aren't factoring in the stomps.

Um, yeah, 295+ points totally crushes 90 points. But the 90 points still contributed.
3 squads of demo vets in 270 points, take 27 attacks with melta bombs, hits with half, wounds with half, and 4 to 5 wounds get past feel no pain.
90 points for 10 dudes with melta bombs is a really good deal. I'd take melta bombs on everyone who can take them, and just keep it in mind. I wouldn't charge at the wraith knight in hopes of doing 6 wounds; but I would throw 3 infantry squads at a wraith knight if it only had 1 wound left.
I'd throw 2 vet squads at wraith knight if he only had 2 wounds left.

-Matt

Ok so it turns out that what he said in the match was wrong and he did pay 90 points for the guardians. Here is his list:

Craftworld Warhost

Guardian Battlehost

Farseer 100

Guardian Defenders 1 90

Eldar missile Launcher

Guardian Defenders 2 90

Eldar missile Launcher

Guardian Defenders 3 90

Eldar missile Launcher

Vyper Squadron 55

1 Vyper, Star Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

War Walkers 60

1 Walker, 2x Scatter Laser

Vauls Wrath Support Battery

3x D Cannon 165

Living Legends

Avatar 195

Wraith Constructs

Wraithknight 325

2x Heavy Wraith Cannon, 1x scatter laser

Wraith Constructs

Wraithknight 310

Suncannon, 2x shuri cannon

Wraith Constructs

Hemlock Wraithfighter 185

Wraith Constructs

Hemlock Wraithfighter 185

1850


My list is bellow. It is semi competitive semi fluffy. Lots and lots of guys. I didnt get it of the net I just made it up.

HQ

96pts Company Command Squad: Regimental Standard and Master of Ordnance , Officer with Bolt pistol

95pts Company Command Squad: Master of Ordnance , Officer with Plasma pistol

25pts Commissar: No upgrades

25pts Commissar: No upgrades


Elites

40pts Ratling Snipers: 4x Ratlings


Troops

Platoon 1

36pts Platoon Command Squad: Grenade Launcher, 3x Guardsmen with laspistol and close Combat weapon, Officer with Bolt pistol

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

75pts Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Autocannon

60pts Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Mortar

105pts Conscripts: 35x Conscripts


Platoon 2

36pts Platoon Command Squad: Grenade Launcher, 3x Guardsmen with laspistol and close Combat weapon, Officer with Bolt pistol

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

80pts Infantry Squad: Lascannon and Melta Gun

75pts Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Autocannon

60pts Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Mortar

105pts Conscripts: 35x Conscripts


Platoon 3

36pts Platoon Command Squad: Grenade Launcher, 3x Guardsmen with laspistol and close Combat weapon, Officer with Bolt pistol

65pts Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher

65pts Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher

65pts Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher

71pts Infantry Squad: Missile Launcher and Grenade Launcher, Sgt with bolt pistol.

75pts Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Heavy Bolter


Oh and the rules pack for the league said only 1 super heavy but it was written before the new Eldar Codex came out. There was no need to restrict LOW at the time of writing of the rules pack because all other armies could only get 1 anyway. That just meant that the none eldar plays got gimped because we could only bring 1 big thing but the eldar could bring more.

While no explicit rule links them, rules restricting Super Heavy Vehicles generally also apply to GMCs.

I'd go as far to say the use of 'Super Heavy', as opposed to 'Super Heavy Vehicle', typically refers to all of the above.

Perhaps see if the League wants to amend that oversight?

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Ok so it turns out that what he said in the match was wrong and he did pay 90 points for the guardians. Here is his list:

~~~STUFF~~~

My list is bellow. It is semi competitive semi fluffy. Lots and lots of guys. I didnt get it of the net I just made it up.

~~~OTHER STUFF~~~

Your opponent's list is tough, no doubt about it.

That said, the list I suggested to you should still work against it, and be flexible enough to face whatever other opponents you may come up against. In your list, I noticed that you were falling into the tax trap with a lot of your infantry units, which is really easy to do with IG. You're paying lots of points across multiple units for things those units are probably not going to use the entire game. For instance, all the meltaguns on your infantry squads that have lascannons. If you've got a lascannon, you're going to be shooting it instead of getting close enough to fire the meltagun, and if you're close enough to fire the meltagun, then you're wasting the 48" range of the lascannon. Other than the rampant taxes you're paying, I like the list.

Just a couple things to keep in mind when you're building those lists:

#1: rule with IG, all of your basic infantry squads are a tax. Don't get more than you need to unlock your heavy weapons teams, special weapons, and conscripts. Every 2 Infantry squads unlocks up to 5 heavy weapons squads, 3 special weapons teams, and a conscript unit. Use that to your advantage.
#2: Don't try to create "Universal Soldier" units. Let your units be specialized. It will allow you to have more bodies, and be more decisive in how to use your units. If you have 2 units of Infantry squads that you plan on taking lascannons and combining together to create a 20 man blob with 2 lascannon shots, let that be what they do. Don't throw more offensive stuff in there if it doesn't work WITH the lascannons. As an example: Meltaguns wouldn't work with lascannons because they require you to get close to get the most effect out of them, but lascannons require you to stay still to shoot them, and hoping enemy vehicles will fly close to your meltaguns for you is wishful thinking. They're also not an effective counter-assault weapon, since they have to fire overwatch as snap shots, just like everything else, so meltaguns with lascannons are no good. However, a flamer gets the "wall of death" rule against anyone trying to charge your unit, so tossing a flamer into each lascannon infantry squad is effective at softening/discouraging incoming charges, and therefore keeping your lascannon infantry doing what you want it to do: Shooting their lascannon.
#3: Use your leadership shenanigans and orders. A 25 point model that can make 50-man blobs of 3 point infantry models fearless is absolutely amazing.

I'm an Eldar player that is currently considering going out and buying a bunch of Imperial Guard Infantry right now.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Um, yeah, 295+ points totally crushes 90 points. But the 90 points still contributed.
3 squads of demo vets in 270 points, take 27 attacks with melta bombs, hits with half, wounds with half, and 4 to 5 wounds get past feel no pain.
90 points for 10 dudes with melta bombs is a really good deal. I'd take melta bombs on everyone who can take them, and just keep it in mind. I wouldn't charge at the wraith knight in hopes of doing 6 wounds; but I would throw 3 infantry squads at a wraith knight if it only had 1 wound left.
I'd throw 2 vet squads at wraith knight if he only had 2 wounds left.

-Matt

The point is that their cheap cost doesn't make them a viable counter or even particularly useful against Wraithknights.

A single squad is barely going to put a dent in a WK, and trying to get two or three 10-man 6'' move T3 squads into combat with a jump-unit isn't going to work against someone who isn't an idiot.

I took things in this league I wouldn't normally just try them out in a competitive (but not as much as a tournament) environment.

The Melta guns were amazing in my first 2 games, which surprised me. I actually found them to be better for killing infantry, most tanks died before they got too close due to the lascannons and enemy infantry trying to charge up to a platoon found them selves taking 3-4 melta and lascannon which generally kills half a squad before the lasguns even start rolling.

But yeah I know the list has some flaws, but I was trying something new and it was working great vs everything I took it against (both in he league and out). It actually made me fall back in love with the humble lasguns which in one game killed both Dante and Astorath!

But the moment it came across eldar it died fast :(

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
I took things in this league I wouldn't normally just try them out in a competitive (but not as much as a tournament) environment.

The Melta guns were amazing in my first 2 games, which surprised me. I actually found them to be better for killing infantry, most tanks died before they got too close due to the lascannons and enemy infantry trying to charge up to a platoon found them selves taking 3-4 melta and lascannon which generally kills half a squad before the lasguns even start rolling.

But yeah I know the list has some flaws, but I was trying something new and it was working great vs everything I took it against (both in he league and out). It actually made me fall back in love with the humble lasguns which in one game killed both Dante and Astorath!

But the moment it came across eldar it died fast :(

Meh, you live and you learn. I agree with you, lascannons are normally pretty good. I just would have had more of them in heavy weapons teams, and less regular infantry squads. Also, I would have sprinkled in some missile launchers. Being S8 AP3, they aren't as strong against vehicles as lascannons, but what they give up there, they more than make up for with anti-air and their blast mode for killing infantry. And IG can get 3 of them for 120 points, then use shenanigans to make a bunch of squads of them twin-linked.

Out of curiousity, did you try to get your 2 units of conscripts into melee with his WKs? And did those conscripts have a commisar escort?

Martel732 wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
Wyverns are always a big problem for my Eldar when I fight the Guard. I'm either forced to hide my guardians, jetbikes, and other non-mechanized infantry units at the back of the table where they won't be threatening anybody, or keep them in reserves to stop the whole squad getting shredded like so much cheddar. And going after the Wyverns in the back of the guard's deployment zone, behind all his defences and tanks and men, is a tough ask - and it means not being able to take care of other stuff that threatens EVERYTHING in my army like russes and blobs of infantry.

Usually I can get the wyverns down by turn 3 or 4 - but by then the damage is done, either with shooting or just being enough of a presence to completely stop my infantry from doing their job.

They're cheap, they can (and should!) be squadded, and in my experience they absolutely COMPLETELY demolish any infantry. I've yet to see a non-vehicle unit take anything less than 50-60% casualties from a round of shooting from wyverns. 90% of the time they just wipe the unit completely - two is more than enough to kill a guardian squad.

Good thing Eldar have the best transport in the game. Still.

Here, 5x Lascannons, have Ignores Cover and Prescience.

Boop!

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
Wyverns are always a big problem for my Eldar when I fight the Guard. I'm either forced to hide my guardians, jetbikes, and other non-mechanized infantry units at the back of the table where they won't be threatening anybody, or keep them in reserves to stop the whole squad getting shredded like so much cheddar. And going after the Wyverns in the back of the guard's deployment zone, behind all his defences and tanks and men, is a tough ask - and it means not being able to take care of other stuff that threatens EVERYTHING in my army like russes and blobs of infantry.

Usually I can get the wyverns down by turn 3 or 4 - but by then the damage is done, either with shooting or just being enough of a presence to completely stop my infantry from doing their job.

They're cheap, they can (and should!) be squadded, and in my experience they absolutely COMPLETELY demolish any infantry. I've yet to see a non-vehicle unit take anything less than 50-60% casualties from a round of shooting from wyverns. 90% of the time they just wipe the unit completely - two is more than enough to kill a guardian squad.

Good thing Eldar have the best transport in the game. Still.

Here, 5x Lascannons, have Ignores Cover and Prescience.

Boop!

That's an expensive combo, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"their blast mode for killing infantry. "

Frag missiles are absolute crap. That is not a consideration in selecting a missile launcher.

1 unit of conscripts died after being stormed twice. The other did manage to get in combat with both wraith Knights but only managed to hold them up for 3 rounds of combat. Both had commisars

Wow. I'd count holding two WKs for 3 rounds of combat a *major* win for a squad of Conscripts!

Nice!

I appreciate I am late to the party with the OP but i'd like to go back to it.

As an Eldar player this is what I do not relish facing with IG : 3 squads of 3 leman russes. Sat side by side. No room either side at all. And a long ways table with no cover. I had this in a tournament admitted it was back in 6th and also I had a bizarre mission where half my army was made by the scenario into reserve, but none of his were in reserve and I was unable to deep strike.

In short it was a massacre.

There were these leman russ variants he had that had two twin linked auto canon in the turret and there were 6 of these tanks. he also had 3 chimeras with flamers and 30 conscripts. I am not sure of the name of his army units but it was incredibly nasty. He rolled a lot of str 8 twin linked all game and I had to tackle his front AV only.

I know you are infantry guard but footguard is suicide against even average eldar lists because eldar are always carrying str6 weapons with low ap as a base line, and in the average eldar army all your weapons teams and main characters just get one shotted

As an IG player who plays eldar almost exclusively I have alot of practice with them. My friend plays all the eldar and I get all the combinations and crap sometimes. I have learned that you can't play any large investment unit like pask any more. Eldar have too many ways to crush him. If they don't have an answer, of course he is great, but with D all around, and wwp archons, it's a liability. We have been playing ITC rules lately, and the wraithcannon wraithknight has been quite the let down. I brought an imperial knight ally, just a paladin, and he tanked shots from a wraithknight all game without taking a hull point from it.

You have to understand, IG is an army of force multipliers now. Units that tend to do well against eldar for me:

Infantry platoon with lascannons with priest, pysker, inquisitor support backed by orders. Standard I use is 40 strong. With prescience and Fire on My Target and Bring it Down!, I can drop vehicles and wraithknights fairly quickly. Shout out to misfortune being cast on a wraithknight and me running up and rapid firing it with lasguns and Bring it Down. So that will be 14 fnp saves please. And for people who say eldar can deny anything we do with ease. Most people I see bring a farseer and a spirit seer. Or maybe a warlock or two instead of the spirit seer. If I roll 3 successes on prescience, it takes so many dice to reliably try to deny it, even with rune of the farseer. Also, the platoon command with 4 flamers out the back of a vendetta. Very standard, and very good. Objective secured and they threaten infantry very well.

Conscripts. I am amazed at how much firepower people throw at them. I just march them up the table in spread formation and stare those dcannons down. I'm coming for you!. Then the eldar player shoots like half his army at them, and I still get armor saves against all those scatters.

Wyverns. There was an arguement about it on the first page. These are good, there is no denying it. They go for bikes first, aspects second(hate those warp spiders). They just need to cause a couple wounds. Bike squads usually range from 3-6 models, and if they lose 3 or more, they are crippled and reduced in effectiveness. Artillery in general seems to do well. Eldar like to hit you where you can't hit them. But artillery can touch you anywhere. And they don't have the ability to take casualties like we can. MoO with ignores cover is super annoying for him. Doesn't always hit, but you gotta respect it.

Vulture, Vendetta. Vultures can kill their bike squads, Vendetta's can target tanks and knights. Just clear out any Crimson Hunters first and they eldar won't really have a easy way to stop you.

Veterans. Good ol' veterans. Standard in a chimera or airborne. Just ten dudes with some melta's or plasma's.

When playing, I almost always shoot bikes first. They are fragile, and put out a lot of damage. And they are mobile. If you field a list appropriately, there will be no choice targets for a wraithknight to shoot, and he will be forced to go forward and fight you. The hardest thing for me to fight, are actually warwalkers and spiders. They arrive behind me and literally take it to me.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Don't forget you can melta bomb a wraith knight.
1 Attack (per model with melta bombs) at S8 AP1 and Init 1.
This makes Demolitions pretty dangerous. If you sprinkle in melta bombs everywhere (I usually do), you could have a lowly sarg finish off a mighty wraith knight.

Meltabombs are considered a grenades in the rulebook.
Is there some special rule I missed that allows every model in a unit to use grenades such as Meltabombs?

“Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase”
any phase including assault. The same rule pertains to krak grenades used in assault

gungo wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Don't forget you can melta bomb a wraith knight.
1 Attack (per model with melta bombs) at S8 AP1 and Init 1.
This makes Demolitions pretty dangerous. If you sprinkle in melta bombs everywhere (I usually do), you could have a lowly sarg finish off a mighty wraith knight.

Meltabombs are considered a grenades in the rulebook.
Is there some special rule I missed that allows every model in a unit to use grenades such as Meltabombs?

“Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase”
any phase including assault. The same rule pertains to krak grenades used in assault

That is only in regards to throwing grenades. You can only "shoot" or overwatch with one grenade, and meltabombs cannot be thrown. In melee, everyone can use however many they have. He means to go and hit the wraithknight with a bunch of meltabombs in melee. It is not a good tactic. You will cause 2-3 wounds maybe, and he gets fnp, then you get stomped. It is also expensive equipping everyone with demolitions.

Forge the narrative harder, ie when you only kill 10-20 guardians/aspect warriors tell him how those lives were far more valuable than solider no.78789783789686883 x100

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
I took things in this league I wouldn't normally just try them out in a competitive (but not as much as a tournament) environment.

The Melta guns were amazing in my first 2 games, which surprised me. I actually found them to be better for killing infantry, most tanks died before they got too close due to the lascannons and enemy infantry trying to charge up to a platoon found them selves taking 3-4 melta and lascannon which generally kills half a squad before the lasguns even start rolling.

But yeah I know the list has some flaws, but I was trying something new and it was working great vs everything I took it against (both in he league and out). It actually made me fall back in love with the humble lasguns which in one game killed both Dante and Astorath!

But the moment it came across eldar it died fast :(

If you want to REALLY fall in love with lasguns...

Get 3x Divination Primaris Psykers. Get the targeted Rending power. Then say "hey there invisible Wraithknight, have 9 AP
2 wounds"

 Bonachinonin wrote:

gungo wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Don't forget you can melta bomb a wraith knight.
1 Attack (per model with melta bombs) at S8 AP1 and Init 1.
This makes Demolitions pretty dangerous. If you sprinkle in melta bombs everywhere (I usually do), you could have a lowly sarg finish off a mighty wraith knight.

Meltabombs are considered a grenades in the rulebook.
Is there some special rule I missed that allows every model in a unit to use grenades such as Meltabombs?

“Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase”
any phase including assault. The same rule pertains to krak grenades used in assault

That is only in regards to throwing grenades. You can only "shoot" or overwatch with one grenade, and meltabombs cannot be thrown. In melee, everyone can use however many they have. He means to go and hit the wraithknight with a bunch of meltabombs in melee. It is not a good tactic. You will cause 2-3 wounds maybe, and he gets fnp, then you get stomped. It is also expensive equipping everyone with demolitions.

Again I don't see the exception in the ruleboook for Meltabombs. There is no special category listing for throwing grenades .
If what you are saying is the case then every guard unit would be able to use krak grenades in assault phase And they can't. Meltabombs don't have an exception to the above rule I quoted that states you can only use one grande during any phase per unit. If you are able to find an exception to that rule in the rulebook Id love to see it.

"A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses." Quoted from the book. There is a limitation for shooting attacks, but not for melee attacks other than just 1 per model.