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All units in a formation must be drawn from the same chapter


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paraphrased because I don't have my book and using my phone for quotes is annoying

 jokerkd wrote:
All units in a formation must be drawn from the same chapter

Correct. What chapter does a Land Raider come from? How do you know?

If all models from a detachment must have a chapter then any land raider in that detachment must have a chapter

 jokerkd wrote:
If all models from a detachment must have a chapter then any land raider in that detachment must have a chapter

You would think so, yes. The problem is that the rules don't actually give us any way to assign that land raider a chapter.

It's clearly an error, but it's broken as it currently stands.

 insaniak wrote:
... the rule already quoted in this thread several times says that you determine the Chapter by looking at which Chapter Tactics they have.

No such rule exists. There is a rule that states you determine what benefits a model receives based on what chapter its drawn from. There is a second rule that explains that when a rule refers to a unit, character, or model by its chapter, it is referring to a model, character, or unit drawn from the given chapter that has the chapter tactics special rule.

Unless I missed something people are either misquoting or misunderstanding the rules.

When putting space marines in detachments we have two additional requirements.

1) We must make note of what chapter from which units with the chapter tactics special rule are being drawn.
2) We must draw all units in the same detachment from the same chapter.

There are no rules for determining what chapter from which a unit is being drawn. Yes you can use the rules above to figure out from what chapter a unit has already been drawn. Key word there is 'already'... If we presume the ability to choose the chapter we are drawing them from for the 1st requirement, why cannot we presume the same for the second requirement?

Well if there are not rules for determining what chapter a unit is from, then... the whole book doesn't work? What?

 juraigamer wrote:
Well if there are not rules for determining what chapter a unit is from, then... the whole book doesn't work? What?

There are rules for determining what Chapter a model is from. It must be drawn from that Chapter AND it must have the Chapter Tactics special rule. Herein lies the dilemma. It's a pretty obvious oversight on GW's part, but from a current rules as written standpoint, any unit/model without the Chapter Tactics special rule is not defined as belonging to any Chapter and can therefore not be included in a Space Marines detachment or formation.

I can't imagine anyone actually enforcing this RaW though. This is just bad rules writing with no technical editing process.

Threads like this are why this forum has zero credibility.

I think it would also mean you cannot include servitors, not sure about TFC by the RAW

but obviously bad editing process.

Not that much of a surprised, for many years the idea of chapter did not have a specific rules set tied to it, this edition they have tied being in a chapter to having chapter tactics listed in the unit profile for the models in that unit.

Who here seriously expects SM players not to use vehicles now ?

I was merely responding to DJGietzen's claim that no rule exists

 Kriswall wrote:

This is just bad rules writing with no technical editing process.

Rule so bad we have additional points to demand reasonable FAQ's for said rules?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Threads like this are why this forum has zero credibility.

Care to explain your insulting comment?

The rules are poorly written. I don't think anyone is arguing that you SHOULDN'T be able to take a Rhino (for example) in a Space Marine Detachment. How does pointing out a critical, and almost certainly unintended, flaw in the latest Codex in any way, shape or form cause this forum to have zero credibility?

Keep in mind that I don't think anyone here is actually recommending you restrict things like Rhinos from play due to them not having a defined Chapter.

Its not a real flaw. There is nothing to support the idea that you can include units with the chapter tactics rule in a detachment, but cannot include those with out that rule.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its not a real flaw. There is nothing to support the idea that you can include units with the chapter tactics rule in a detachment, but cannot include those with out that rule.

I take it you haven't read this thread and/or the codex in question then? It's pretty clear the RAW is nuts on this one.

No, I have.There is this common argument is that if a model, unit or character does not have the CT special rule it cannot be drawn from a chapter. This is faulty logic. A rule cannot refer to an "Iron Hands Rhino" because there is no Rhino unit, model or character with the CT rule. That does not mean that a Rhino cannot be drawn from the Iron Hands chapter.

Pretty sure its RAW that vehicles dont need to have chapter tactics.

Ya'll looking to much into this. Not everything is a GW F..k up.

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, I have.There is this common argument is that if a model, unit or character does not have the CT special rule it cannot be drawn from a chapter. This is faulty logic. A rule cannot refer to an "Iron Hands Rhino" because there is no Rhino unit, model or character with the CT rule. That does not mean that a Rhino cannot be drawn from the Iron Hands chapter.

actually it does.

There is no entry for "iron hands tactical squad" because chapter is not part of the unit name, or datasheet entry.

Chapter is now defined as models having the chapter tactics rule for a specific chapter in the space marine codex.

So a tactical squad can have the chapter tactics rule, and you say its chapter tactics are iron hands so the squad belongs to the iron hands chapter because it has their chapter tactics. Its name does not become "Iron hands tactical squad" and its datasheet do not change, it is still just "tactical squad"

For a Rhino it is still a rhino in name, and for the datasheet but it does not have chapter tactics, so it does not belong to the chapter according to how the rules are written in the codex.

Of course it is listed as an option for an unit to buy one, and makes no sense to say its not part of the chapter, because fluff wise it is, but rules wise it is not. So rules wise there is this now dumb scenario where the non dreadnaught vehicles do not have chapter tactics, so by the rules they are not part of the chapter- because they lack chapter tactics which is the defining rule of being part of the chapter.

So yes as it stands from a rule stance a rhino/razorback/drop pod does not have chapter tactics, and is not part of the chapter despite what the fluff says and how it might be painted. Because chapter has been made into a rule, and the requirement for that rule is having chapter tactics, and these models do not have chapter tactics. Much like someone saying a drop pod does not have to remove its doors because thats a fluff statement and there is no rule, or the blood angels formation that states "once on the ground the sgts can triangulate their teleport homers" but thats not an actual rule and they can use them while embarked. There is no rule that currently allows SM vehicles (barring dreds) to be part of a chapter as per how chapter is defined in the rules.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Who here seriously expects SM players not to use vehicles now ?

Nobody. It's a discussion of a curious oversight in the rules, nothing more.

Doesent the first sentence read that all models are part of the same chapter?

blaktoof wrote:
Chapter is now defined as models having the chapter tactics rule for a specific chapter in the space marine codex.

You lost me here as this is the argument I am talking about. There is no such rule/definition in the codex.

All the codex says that if a rule says something like "Iron Hands Razobacks ignore crew shaken results." it means a Razoback with the chapter tactics special rule drawn from the Iron Hands chapter ignores crew shaken results. Since none of Razorbacks in the codex have the CT rule this made up 'rule' would not apply to them. If however this 'rule' said "Razorbacks drawn from the Iron Hands chapter ignore crew shaken results." then it would apply to them because there is no requirement they have the CT rule.

So, if you think the rule that says that the chapter is defined by chapter tactics doesn't mean that the chapter is defined by chapter tactics, which rule are you using to determine which chapter the unit is from?

 DJGietzen wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Chapter is now defined as models having the chapter tactics rule for a specific chapter in the space marine codex.

You lost me here as this is the argument I am talking about. There is no such rule/definition in the codex.

All the codex says that if a rule says something like "Iron Hands Razobacks ignore crew shaken results." it means a Razoback with the chapter tactics special rule drawn from the Iron Hands chapter ignores crew shaken results. Since none of Razorbacks in the codex have the CT rule this made up 'rule' would not apply to them. If however this 'rule' said "Razorbacks drawn from the Iron Hands chapter ignore crew shaken results." then it would apply to them because there is no requirement they have the CT rule.

Incorrect. This rule/definition is most certainly in the Codex. Page 189 of the new codex... "The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter."

 Kriswall wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Chapter is now defined as models having the chapter tactics rule for a specific chapter in the space marine codex.

You lost me here as this is the argument I am talking about. There is no such rule/definition in the codex.

All the codex says that if a rule says something like "Iron Hands Razobacks ignore crew shaken results." it means a Razoback with the chapter tactics special rule drawn from the Iron Hands chapter ignores crew shaken results. Since none of Razorbacks in the codex have the CT rule this made up 'rule' would not apply to them. If however this 'rule' said "Razorbacks drawn from the Iron Hands chapter ignore crew shaken results." then it would apply to them because there is no requirement they have the CT rule.

Incorrect. This rule/definition is most certainly in the Codex. Page 189 of the new codex... "The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter."

As i said before, referring to a chapter =/= referring to a unit by its chapter.
There is even an example of what it means by "referring to a unit by its chapter"

I am stuck on designating a vehicle by its chapter..... but than i assumed that being told you must do something was enough of a permission to do it. In a few threads I'm being told this is wrong but i havent seen a single publication agree

Where are you told that a vehicle must have a designated chapter?

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its not a real flaw. There is nothing to support the idea that you can include units with the chapter tactics rule in a detachment, but cannot include those with out that rule.

^^ This .

My grip with this forum is it could be an excellent place to discuss the rules in a practical meaningful way that would be very beneficial to all gamers. However it is mostly always an exercise in super restrictions that no one would ever actually apply in RL .

 insaniak wrote:
Where are you told that a vehicle must have a designated chapter?

You are given permission to take a vehicle in a formation with a character that has CT

Assuming you dont read the chapter tactics rules as intended, you are also told that all units in a formation must be from the same chapter

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its not a real flaw. There is nothing to support the idea that you can include units with the chapter tactics rule in a detachment, but cannot include those with out that rule.

^^ This .

My grip with this forum is it could be an excellent place to discuss the rules in a practical meaningful way that would be very beneficial to all gamers. However it is mostly always an exercise in super restrictions that no one would ever actually apply in RL .

Nobody here is saying they'd apply the restrictions in real life. This is something you're adding in your mind. We're discussing how the rules, as written on the page, interact. How we would actually play the game is an entirely different matter. Nobody here has said they wouldn't actually allow SM Vehicles in an army list.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

^^ This .

My grip with this forum is it could be an excellent place to discuss the rules in a practical meaningful way that would be very beneficial to all gamers. However it is mostly always an exercise in super restrictions that no one would ever actually apply in RL .

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from adding how you would play it into the discussion, instead of just complaining that the discussion is currently more focussed on the actual RAW.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:
You are given permission to take a vehicle in a formation with a character that has CT

Assuming you dont read the chapter tactics rules as intended, you are also told that all units in a formation must be from the same chapter

That doesn't answer my question, though.

Saying that all models in a detachment must be from the same chapter is not the same as saying that all models must be assigned a chapter. It's just saying that the detachment can only include models with a chapter.


Look at it this way - There is a requirement to be driving a car in order to be served at the drive-through at Macdonalds. Does that grant me permission to drive, even if I don't have a licence?

Clearly not. What it means is that if I can't drive, I can't go through the drive through.


A restriction is not a permission.

You already have permission to include vehicles and CT models in the same formation

 jokerkd wrote:
You already have permission to include vehicles and CT models in the same formation

Yes, you do. Provided they are from the same Chapter.

So now you need a rule that assigns a chapter to your vehicles, in order for them to be eligible to join the formation.