Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"Rending on an assault cannon adding another 0.3 wounds doesn't seem tso insignificant now does it. "

But you're only getting one and paying what? 20 pts for it? Still seems pretty insignificant. If scatterlasers were fielded the way the Imperium fields assault cannons, they'd be damn near worthless, too.

"Split fire. We are talking about deathwing here, so what the targets of the storm bolters would be does not matter. And its damage output compares well to its competitors. "

Okay. That makes it better. But really? Two krak missiles? For a 200+ point squad? I just think going naked and forget about meaningful shooting with them is the best way to go. It also maximizes your durability/pt.

Okay. That makes it better. But really? Two krak missiles? For a 200+ point squad?

2 krak missiles for 25 points.

Ignore the cost of the terminators. The issue here is what weapon is best for them. Everyone knows the terminators themselves are not competitive.

2 krak missiles on a relentless platform for 25 points isn;t bad, even if the squad with it is. When you consider a normal missile launcher on a tac marine (non-relentless) costs 15 points, getting 2 shots with more mobility for 5 points less than the cost of 2 missile launchers isn't a bad deal.

It also maximizes your durability/pt.

durability per point is much less important if the squad in question has no bite to it. The heavy weapons in a DW terminator squad are a must imo, as it gives the squad some much needed utility.

DW also get twin linked on the turn they drop in, so its nice to have a weapon that can really benefit from it.

From my own experiences with deathwing, I would take mostly CML on all but 1 squad, on which I would take a heavy flamer.
There have been a few times when I had wished I had assault cannons instead (lots of 2+ saves or AV14), but I'm sure if I had used lots of assault cannons there would have been times when I wished I had brought more CMLs.

" When you consider a normal missile launcher on a tac marine"

I guess I never realized how bad a missile dev was. Haven't used em since early 5th, though.

I guess if you have two squads with split fire CML you might get a WS or something to jink if you fire two CMLs at it. It's utterly umpressive for the cost. though.

Two thoughts:

AC. Its an fing minigun. What's scarier than a bunch of unkillable, unstoppable heavyweights slowly walking up field to punch you in the face like a truck? Them firing a minigun at you full auto while walking up the field to punch you in the face like a truck!

(Also, an AC outperforms a Lascannon for antitank duty)

CML, though, is perfect for split fire. There aren't many targets for whom s8 ap3 x2 is useless. And there are very, very many targets where a pair of krak missiles have a decent chance of ruining someone's day. So Bob the Slow takes a keen interest in that Venom or Bike squad while everyone else starts bumrushing what they want to punch anyways. Split fire is nice.

"AC. Its an fing minigun. What's scarier than a bunch of unkillable, unstoppable heavyweights slowly walking up field to punch you in the face like a truck?"

Not so scary when the heavyweights are just slow and not unkillable or unstoppable. And if they don't live to punch me, it doesn't matter that they hit like a truck.

So, when fielding Termies, your suggestion is to not field them. Noted.

Assuming that the person is fielding Termies, as they are fielding Termies, is naked really better? A split firing CML for just the upgrade points, basically. And an AC is certainly worth the 20pts, assuming Termies are fielded anyways.

Bharring wrote:
So, when fielding Termies, your suggestion is to not field them. Noted.

Assuming that the person is fielding Termies, as they are fielding Termies, is naked really better? A split firing CML for just the upgrade points, basically. And an AC is certainly worth the 20pts, assuming Termies are fielded anyways.

I guess we'll agree to disagree and the efficacy of a single assault cannon. Like I said, I wouldn't be scared of a single scatterlaser, but they never seem to come one to a squad. I'm certainly not concerned about a single assault cannon.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that no heavy at all is perhaps the best choice, You need to get into CC.

Which is also off the table.

This topic is STRICTLY just AC vs CML.

EDIT: Seems like this glitched and was delayed, originally tried to post this at the end of the last page.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that no heavy at all is perhaps the best choice, You need to get into CC.

Which is also off the table.

This topic is STRICTLY just AC vs CML.

Oh, yeah I forgot. Having to choose one, I guess I'd do the CML. Bill has convinced me. The single AC is just too poor.

Now this come from my Space Wolf Terminators.

I tend to take 5 or 10 with Cyclones to act as a Bodyguard for a Rune Priest or Njal and I have found out a few things.
If you want to sit on an Objective the Terminators armed with a Cyclone(s) they can be hard to push off of it and you can do a decent job at sniping target (especially with a Divination Priest). I can spend the whole game firing them without issues unless I am Assaulted.

With Assault Cannons I find myself getting real close and only getting to use the Assault Cannon 2 maybe 3 times during the game.

I think this is why I feel CMLs are a better choice.

I still think you should look into Plasma Cannons, but that is a personal choice.

I suppose that's fair, though I'm not sure I'd be using them as Librarian bodyguards or for objective holding (though I honestly haven't thought about what to do for objectives). I suppose the issue would be that if I couldn't get into Assault Cannon range, then I wouldn't be able to fire anything else since I think that's the Storm Bolter range too.

Really don't want to use the Plasma Cannon, I've heard horrible things about it and I only have one at all because it's in the Dark Vengeance Tactical Squad.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
I suppose that's fair, though I'm not sure I'd be using them as Librarian bodyguards or for objective holding (though I honestly haven't thought about what to do for objectives). I suppose the issue would be that if I couldn't get into Assault Cannon range, then I wouldn't be able to fire anything else since I think that's the Storm Bolter range too.

Really don't want to use the Plasma Cannon, I've heard horrible things about it and I only have one at all because it's in the Dark Vengeance Tactical Squad.

For me CML and Plasma Cannons are for holding Objectives and Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers are for Taking Objectives.
I know about your want of the CML/AC. thus the small print.

That does seem to make sense, given the nature of those weapons.
Hadn't really thought of which of those purposes I'd use them for since I had been thinking entirely in terms of killing stuff. It does seem like taking them (as opposed to holding them) might suit something that would just Deep Strike in and I'm not sure that after that I'd want them stuck in one place, but at the same time I'm not sure they would be getting anywhere else with that slow movement and it does seem like they'd at least be kind of tricky to shoot off the objectives.
Either way, already do have one squad which definitely has an Assault Cannon and won't be changing, if that affects anything.

Thinking about it some more, the CML definitely seems like the better Anti-Tank choice and I'm concerned about my Anti-Tank abilities but if I use it for that it's just two shots and the pair of Storm Bolter shots will just plink right off. Better against MEQs but not sure if two dead Marines are really worth that much. Frags against a Horde do seem tempting though.
Does seem like a good option but I'll admit I'm a little scared away by the modelling difficulties of removing and replacing the Assault Cannon arm compared to just plucking off the CML as well as the CML being 5 points more expensive when my list is currently 2508 points assuming I picked the AC. It's meant to be more of a "master list" I build my lists out of but right now I could bring the whole thing to a 2500 point game if I agreed with my opponent that we'd pretend my Vindicator's Siege Shield isn't there. If I pick the CML I'd probably have to ditch something else too (like that same Vindy's Storm Bolter).

Full list is here if that helps with determining which is better for me.

I'm pretty sure I have a spare Storm Bolter arm I could post you, if you definitely want to go CML. But it's probably easiest to pick up a 2nd squad of termies -- they're super cheap either on sprue or 2nd hand, because GW has been giving them away in starter sets for ages, and they haven't been very good for ages.

I'm still not remotely clear which I want to use still, and it all seems pretty split.

In any case I think I'm set for arms, since there's another in the Tactical Terminator kit and loads in the Deathwing kit that I currently don't have a use for.
Real issue issue is the shoulder pad attached to it, not sure if I could get it off (used "Plastic Glue"), there are spares in the Deathwing kit but those look different.

Accurate DSing twinlinked heavy Flamers are $$$.

For all other squads the CML has performed the best for me.

^With Heavy Flamers being off the table, would accurate DSing twinlinking Assault Cannons work that same sort of way?

Though I suppose that's another that's had good experiences with the CML...

Ah, it's not usually that hard to cut the arm just below the shoulder pad, in that case. You may need a razor saw for neatness, though sometimes you can get away with snips.

Ah I see, so then I do the same with the Storm Bolter arm and try to glue the attached shoulder to the Storm Bolter arm?

Yep -- nice simple conversion.

I see, thought that might be what it would entail, was concerned it would be tricky to do compared to just prying off the CML.