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I like the versatility of the CML. Even if you're always deep striking, there may be times when the combination of enemy, terrain, and mission means that you want to deep strike out of range of the AC. It's a rare thing, maybe, but if it means getting a durable squad onto an objective, early on, it may be worthwhile -- especially if t means landing out of range of your enemy's terminator-killing stuff, at least till you've taken that out. Relentless means that you can move 6" a turn and still shoot the CML with full effectiveness. Slow but sure -- if you need to get somewhere else by the end of the game, you can do it.

Plus split fire and deep strike means you can shoot the CML at a tank and the storm bolters at infantry.

I still like the AC, too, mind, and would probably have a mix if running more than 1-2 deathwing squads.

I like CML, they just tend to do more damage I find, especially against multi-wound toughness 4, toughness 6 MCs and anything with armor 3.

One way I ran them recently 10 man squad, combat squadded, with 5 TH/SS deepstriking close to the enemy, and the other squad of 5 with 2 CMLs deepstriking at the back on an objective.

That way the 5 TH/SS could run or assault each turn and not worry about not shooting the CMLs. Meanwhile the 2 CML squad could shoot anything on the board and were pretty mean.

1) Split firing is on a model bases. As such, if you have a CML you are also shooting 1 SB at that target.

2) Im pretty sure mathhammer has shown that Assault Cannons have a better chance of penning something than a las cannon does (its only like 4% on a land raider but still.) Which would be much better than 2 str 8 missiles.

I'm mostly bummed that my TH/SS termies cant take the CML any more. That was the only place I used it. A speeder with typhoon missiles isnt much more than a termy with CML and the speeder can travel and stay farther away from danger while still shooting it. (Or not since I give mine Typhoons and MM's.)

Okay, having a think about this (and a proper look at the proper 'dex which I now own properly).
Firing the Storm Bolter with the CML means the same number of shots overall... But two of those shots will be strictly inferior to the AC so it sounds like the CML would need to be noticeably better for it to pay off.
I suppose my issues are as follows:
1) Regarding Krak: Obviously the better choice against MEQs but against anything else armored... Against tanks, is it enough of an improvement to warrant firing a pair of ineffectual Bolts at it and giving up Rending? And of course 4+ Armor infantry which I know I'll face some of due to a Guard player with that particular upgrade on lots of people, at least) will be a lot more afraid of the Assault Cannon.
2) Regarding Frag: The effect against hordes sounds good, particularly since I know I'll face IG and 'nids a bunch but I'm kinda wary about this because it sounds like it's like that those mini-Blasts will just zip away from the stuff I wanted to kill...
3) Regarding modelling: It seems like it'll be easier to remove the CML than the Assault Cannon. Particularly since I don't know if I have a spare shoulder pad so if I don't I'll need to either somehow pry off the shoulder pad (plastic glued, so MUCH easier said than done) or cut fancy with cutting the arms below the shoulder. If I DO keep the CML, would anyone have any hints about this?

I didn't vote, as this really is a matter of opinion, playstyle and meta.

The AC and the CML are the best heavy weapons available.

CML: long range, better vs MEQ, better vs mid AV vehicles, better vs multi wound T4 models

AC: better vs 4+ and 2+ saves, better vs high and low AV values.

That said though, the numbers are still pretty close on a lot of these comparisons, and both weapons are a good tac choice.

I'm still voting for neither. Keep terminators as cheap as possible. A single heavy isn't going to magically make the unit good at shooting, so why bother? Actually, can't you just gear these guys to be all assault terminators?

Big Blind Bill wrote:I didn't vote, as this really is a matter of opinion, playstyle and meta.

I don't have an opinion (aside from "I'd rather clip off the CML than futz around with replacing the Assault Cannon arm", but I'm trying to keep modelling issues out of this), don't really have a playstyle yet and I'm not sure about the meta (I know the guys I'm most likely to face play Guard and 'nids and I do know at least a little about the former's army - the latter hasn't built his yet).

Big Blind Bill wrote:The AC and the CML are the best heavy weapons available.

Indeed, this being why I immediately left the Heavy Flamer in the box.

Big Blind Bill wrote:CML: long range, better vs MEQ, better vs mid AV vehicles, better vs multi wound T4 models

AC: better vs 4+ and 2+ saves, better vs high and low AV values.

That said though, the numbers are still pretty close on a lot of these comparisons, and both weapons are a good tac choice.

Yeah, that sounds about right. The latter does sound like a wider and less specific range BUT I'm not certain I won't face stuff in the former category either (MEQs are common, even if not with those two armies. Might see some mid AV vehicles and Guard player wants an Ork detachment, don't know if 'nids have a lot of multi-wound T4), really unsure of how to cut it...

Martel732 wrote:I'm still voting for neither.

Completely off the table, along with the Heavy Flamer and Plasma Cannon (the latter of which I'd need to dip into another box for anyway).

Martel732 wrote:Actually, can't you just gear these guys to be all assault terminators?

Not from the box they were made from (Tactical Terminator kit in Deathstorm), I do have a Deathwing box which might include those options (haven't looked yet) but even then I'm not that sold because I'd need 10 spare shoulder pads or else the issue with replacing the AC would be multiplied tenfold.
And if I wanted extra choppy Termies I'd make Knights, a Command Squad (which I might actually set up in an Assault-focused way to match the Champion) or a pair of squads with one Thunder Hammer or Heavy Weapon dude and 4 Lightning Claw guys so I could stick those to the existing squads and combat squad them into two AP3 squads and two AP2 squads (with either an extra Heavy Weapon or a Storm Shield) though I'd also model somebody with an exposed heads in those groups so I could call them the Sergeant if I ever needed to field them separately.

Martel732 wrote:
A single heavy isn't going to magically make the unit good at shooting, so why bother? Actually, can't you just gear these guys to be all assault terminators?

Why not both? With split fire adding a heavy weapon makes the terminator squad far more flexible. 2 relentless missile launcher shots a turn for 25 points is pretty good.

Terminators are best used for assault of course, but I usually have a Utility guy with heavy weapon and chainfist.

For why I'd not do that, not sure about the idea and it would require a lot of re-modelling.

Just opened up the Deathwing box and had a look.
I can't make a properly choppy squad, only have 1 Thunder Hammer and 1 pair of Lightning Claws.
I COULD have some spare shoulder pads since there are 15 in the box, but it might depend what I build with it.

Okay, still seems really split and I need to get on with fixing my models...
So it comes down to my list? Got all the models in now and it comes down to this, split into three detachments, from which I'll pick and choose units with I want to bring each time.
The CAD has a Power Armor Librarian with Force Sword (Dark Vengeance model), Tactical Squad (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun and the Sarge has a Plasma Pistol and Chainsword), Scout Squad (Bolters and Heavy Bolter which I'll probably get Hellfire Shells for because those sound handy to have), two Venerable Dreadnoughts (one has an Assault Cannon and Flamer-Fist, the other has a Twin-Linked Lascannon and Missile Launcher), Assault Squad (Power Sword and Plasma Pistol on Sarge, another Plasma Pistol on someone else and Bolt Pistol/Chainsword for the other three), Vindicator and Azrael.
Deathwing Strike Force has a Librarian (Storm Bolter and not-yet-determined Force Weapon), another Terminator Squad (Assault Cannon and 1 Chainfist, otherwise standard), THIS Terminator Squad (2 Chainfists and whichever weapon wins this topic) and some Deathwing Knights.
Ravenwing Strike Force has Sammael on Sableclaw, a Ravenwing Bike Squad (Combi-Melta on Sarge, two Meltaguns and a Multi-Melta Attack Bikes. Serious AT specialist this unit is!), a Ravenwing Command Squad (Champion, Apothecary and guy with Grenade Launcher) and of course a Darkshroud (No DA Bike list is complete without one! )
So... Am I seriously hurting on a particular front here? Thought I might have Anti-Vehicle issues still, but not sure if I've sorted that (or are close enough that I could get there with some new figures next time I pick some up).
Main opponents are likely to be Guard (with Ork detachment. Same guy also has Nurgle Marines) and Tyranids.

The cyclone is the most useless weapon in the entire marine arsenal. Not just amongst terminators I mean every space marine no exceptions. It's a 48" missle launcher mounted to the back of a unit that operates at 12" - 24" or should be at basically all times. It's the most worthless piece of trash in the world. Assault cannons while being 36" operate well at 12" unlike the cml that basically becomes meaningless.

 ionusx wrote:
The cyclone is the most useless weapon in the entire marine arsenal. Not just amongst terminators I mean every space marine no exceptions. It's a 48" missle launcher mounted to the back of a unit that operates at 12" - 24" or should be at basically all times. It's the most worthless piece of trash in the world. Assault cannons while being 36" operate well at 12" unlike the cml that basically becomes meaningless.

I don't know about useless, it does a real number on Multi-Wound T4 3+ Models. Even vs 2+ models it only takes one failed save to kill the model off, just ask Crisis Suits and Nid Warriors.

 ionusx wrote:
The cyclone is the most useless weapon in the entire marine arsenal. Not just amongst terminators I mean every space marine no exceptions. It's a 48" missle launcher mounted to the back of a unit that operates at 12" - 24" or should be at basically all times. It's the most worthless piece of trash in the world. Assault cannons while being 36" operate well at 12" unlike the cml that basically becomes meaningless.

ACs are 24".

As for the CML, the usefulness of its range really depends on what else you're up to. There are now rarely times when you'll want to waste the firepower of the other 4 termies by not shooting the SBs, largely because all-termie armies are so scarce now, but I could still see situations where you want to keep the majority of your forces as far away from the opposition as possible and whittle them down -- had a tourney at the tail end of 5th where I managed to beat a previously unbeaten then-new-Necron-codex player by just staying beyond the 36" range of his stuff with my all-termie army for as long as possible and whittling his heavy stuff down with (yes) Cyclones. Did something similar again a couple of months back in a tourney under 7th, where again, Cyclones were my only real defence against a Necron player's pylons. With the latter situation I did fortunately have Split Fire so was able to still use the SBs, which is another reason you might want cyclones.

I'm not sure where this idea of reduced utility below 12" arises either. Adding 2 x S8 shots to a volley of S4 is never a bad thing. You might think the AP3 and anti-transport potential of the shooting is wasted, but even against light infantry that's two almost guaranteed wounds, which is way better than nothing.

Assault cannons while being 36" operate well at 12" unlike the cml that basically becomes meaningless.

Wut?

I'm seriously wondering what logic you applied to come to this conclusion.

Both weapons are just as efficient from ranges 1-24. However the CML is infinitely better at ranges 25-48.

It's a 48" missle launcher mounted to the back of a unit that operates at 12" - 24

Whilst for other units in this example you could argue that the CML would make their battlefield role schizophrenic, in this case your argument is invalid.

Due to DW terminators being relentless and having split fire, it is perfectly feasible to give a cc unit a long ranged weapon, as they can still move towards and engage their intended targets, but can also provide some heavy fire at the same time.

Well if it's anything I'm Deep Striking these guys (and the other gang of DW Terms) and since I'm running DWSF and RWSF together I'll be able to basically drop them where I want them (as long as it's within 6 inches of a Bike, which shouldn't be hard). Is that a point in the Assault Cannon's favor?

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well if it's anything I'm Deep Striking these guys (and the other gang of DW Terms) and since I'm running DWSF and RWSF together I'll be able to basically drop them where I want them (as long as it's within 6 inches of a Bike, which shouldn't be hard). Is that a point in the Assault Cannon's favor?

It's a point in the heavy flamer's favour if anything lol.

If you find you can reliably get to the weak side/rear armour of vehicles, then the assault cannon would be better.

That's abut the only time when having pin point accuracy gives an advatage to the assault cannon over the CML.

Tbh why don't you just play a few games and see what you like. Just use the guy with no arms a few times and then make your choice. As said, both weapons perform well and are very comparable.

Personally I've had better success with the CML, but that is largely down to happenstance.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Yeah, that was the big sticking issue for me and why I wanted to be absolutely sure before I pried off the CML.

Probably easier to Ebay another Black Reach Terminator than it is to scrap a CML.

Big Blind Bill wrote:It's a point in the heavy flamer's favour if anything lol.

As mentioned, the Heavy Flamer and Plasma Cannon are completely off the table (as would be fielding them with no Heavy Weapon. Assault setups are also unviable as I only have 1 Thunder Hammer and 1 pair of Lightning Claws).

Big Blind Bill wrote:If you find you can reliably get to the weak side/rear armour of vehicles, then the assault cannon would be better.

Don't know if I could, I might, but I legitimately don't know, someone more experienced with this kind of thing would have to tell me.

Big Blind Bill wrote:Tbh why don't you just play a few games and see what you like. Just use the guy with no arms a few times and then make your choice. As said, both weapons perform well and are very comparable.

What do you mean with no arms?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Probably easier to Ebay another Black Reach Terminator than it is to scrap a CML.

What do you mean, saying it's hard to remove? Just seems like a simple issue of cutting it off.

Heavy Flamer makes me happy lately

How? The thing sounds pretty lame for such a high-end unit. It would be one thing when it's going in a Tactical Squad or the underside of a Dreadnought Power Fist, but it sounds like such a weak thing to be taking the special slot in a Terminator Squad.

Heavy flamers consistently generate more wounds against infantry targets than any of the other choices because they don't roll to hit. The assault cannon averages 2.67 hits. Yippie. That's miserable firepower. The heavy automatically hits every target it touches. That can be a huge number, but generally no less than four.

While the Assault Cannon has better range, more Strength, Rending and might actually work against armor.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
While the Assault Cannon has better range, more Strength, Rending and might actually work against armor.

You can't count on a single assault cannon to ever rend, so I would ignore that feature. The only way I ever would use tac terminators is with a heavy flamer coming down with range of a beacon. With 4X stormbolters and a heavy flamer, you might be able to break one Xeno unit and then assault another on the next turn. I don't know if DC are considered tac terminators or not, but I find that a single cyclone and a single assault cannon are basically worthless.

The assault cannon averages 2.67 hits. Yippie. That's miserable firepower.

It actually isn't. Do the mathhammer for any weapon, and the generated outcomes will be lower than you'd expect in most cases.
2.66 str 6 hits coming from a single weapon is decent.

Heavy flamers consistently generate more wounds

With an 8 inch range I wouldn't call them consistent. When it gets to shoot it can hurt, but half of the game you will not be firing it. The CML and assault cannon provide solid utility against all targets, and will usually be firing all game, which makes them a better tac pick than a heavy flamer.

That said, I do sometimes take the heavy flamer in TH/SS DW squads to counter their weakness of hordes/tarpits.

"2.66 str 6 hits coming from a single weapon is decent. "

That's true, but not worth the terminator tax to field it.

" When it gets to shoot it can hurt, but half of the game you will not be firing it"

I was planning to DS directly into flamer range with a teleport homer. It's the only circumstance I'd even consider tac terminators, and even then they suck hard. Of course, BA can now put heavy flamers on tac marines, so why would I ever use terminators at this point?

"The CML and assault cannon provide solid utility"

Too few shots to be considered "solid" in my book. The CML is especially miserable.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
That said, I do sometimes take the heavy flamer in TH/SS DW squads to counter their weakness of hordes/tarpits.

That DOES sound potentially handy. Not important for this squad but I will put the Heavy Flamer back on the table when I get to my future Command Squad (which might have Thunder Hammers in it).

You can't count on a single assault cannon to ever rend,

Ignore rending? Lol.

Rending directly increases the average damage of a weapon. Vs meq targets rending on an assault cannon adds an extra 0.3 wounds per turn.

A heavy flamer vs MEQ needs to get the template over 5 models to be better than an assault cannon btw, and 6 to beat the CML.

That's true, but not worth the terminator tax to field it.

We get that you don;t like terminators. Of the heavy weapons available though, CML and assault cannon are the best all round picks.

The CML is especially miserable.

You keep saying this, but have provided no reason why it is true.

The CML is the best pick vs MEQ, AV12/13 and multi wound t4 models.

"You keep saying this, but have provided no reason why it is true. "

I don't think it can cause enough damage to justify the price of taking it. I consider it miserable because the stormbolters in the squad are usually wasted against the target of krak missiles. Usually.

"A heavy flamer vs MEQ"

Vs non-meq, though, it gets amazingly better much quicker. Plus, ifI can't get my terminators within flamer range on the DS, I probably just wasted my points on them.

"n extra 0.3 wounds per turn. "

That doesn't seem very impressive for the cost of the gun.

"Of the heavy weapons available though, CML and assault cannon are the best all round picks. "

I still think that no heavy at all is perhaps the best choice, You need to get into CC.

Martel732 wrote:
"You keep saying this, but have provided no reason why it is true. "

1)I don't think it can cause enough damage to justify the price of taking it. I consider it miserable because the stormbolters in the squad are usually wasted against the target of krak missiles. Usually.

"A heavy flamer vs MEQ"

2)Vs non-meq, though, it gets amazingly better much quicker.

3)"n extra 0.3 wounds per turn. "

That doesn't seem very impressive for the cost of the gun.

1) Split fire. We are talking about deathwing here, so what the targets of the storm bolters would be does not matter. And its damage output compares well to its competitors.

2) True, but half the armies in the game are MEQ. Also, as said before, the other weapons will be firing 2x more than the heavy flamer over the course of the game, which will even out the numbers. The heavy flamer has uses, but is much more niche in its role.

3) That's because you haven't done your homework yet, and checked other weapons in the game. The damage output of most weapons is pretty low.
Lets take the scatter laser for example - Yes, the weapon that in the hands of eldar jetbikes tables most opposition out there - Do you know it's average wounds per turn vs MEQ? 0.741.
Rending on an assault cannon adding another 0.3 wounds doesn't seem tso insignificant now does it. In this case rending increases the assault cannon's damage output over the scatter laser by around 40%.