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 Anfauglir wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Brother Armiger wrote:
I never understood why they didn't state a simpler solution. Grey Knights are all Psykers, right? Well, if it were my fluff to write:

Grey Knights use their potent Psyker abilities to alter the perception of mortals around them. Anyone who has witnessed the Grey Knights in action will have difficulty recalling exactly which Space Marine chapter he saw. Some may argue that they saw Ultramarines, others may describe heraldry that doesn't exist, and some may not recall any details at all.

How to fix this 'Grey Knights kill anyone that sees them': Marneus Calgar sees Kaldor Draigo.

Rumor has it that if you play this out, the next morning Matt Ward will be in your kitchen, drinking your coffee from your favorite mug. He'll autograph a Codex as 'Spiritual Liege'.

I think the only reason that everyone who sees a Grey Knight in battle is killed (excepting Astartes and VIPs, but not excepting Sororitas, Mechanicus or anyone else that's not a Space Marine or specially important) is because Grey Knights in the fluff dedicate their efforts exclusively against Daemons, and knowledge of Daemons or Chaos is punishable by death by the Inquisition because the mere knowledge can lead to an entire planet being overrun by daemons. So if you ever see a Grey Knight in battle, they're fighting a demon, and thus you've seen a demon.

Astartes have to know about Chaos because they're one of the main tools in fighting Chaos Space Marines and very helpful in fighting Daemons, and they're also notoriously difficult to reproduce due to needing the gene-seed. Astartes can also live up to a thousand years if not killed in battle first, and spend most of their time as Astartes either actively fighting in war zones or getting ready to fight in a war zone, making them worth investing effort into sparing.

Sororitas are far more numerous than Astartes (though this is debatable) and their duties typically lie with protecting holy sites, protecting Ecclesiarchy personnel and buildings, killing heretics (not necessarily Chaos-worshippers), and protecting pilgrimage routes. They don't live longer than an ordinary human (Living Saints aside), and physiologically they're just ordinary human beings in great physical condition, which are a dime a dozen in the overall Imperium. Grey Knights don't view those duties as being critical to the effort against Daemons, and view them as easily replaceable (which given their casualty rates in the lore, they must be), and the Ordo Malleus probably treats them similarly.

Important people get a pass because they have political pull that makes things easier. Also because important people get special treatment in 40k.

Also, your fluff ignores the Imperium's (and Astartes' in particular, with a few exceptions) general disregard for the value of human life. They don't care about the thousands they kill to keep Daemons a secret. They're not worth expending psyker powers on to keep alive.

Which all falls completely apart as soon as you look at Cadians. You know, the most famous, most successful, most prolific IG regiment in the entire Imperium, all from Cadia, a giant military academy placed on Chaos' doorstep with the explicit intention of guarding against Chaos incursions. Including not least of which... wait for it: daemons!

Keeping Chaos and daemons secret from everyone except Space Marines doesn't make any sense. It never has. Hence why the Grey Knights and their fluff are stupid.

To be fair, WH40k is a setting that's so over-the-top with grimdark that it's essentially a parody of grimdark.

A friend of mine hates FPS/TPS computer games that are all militaristic and gritty like Call of Duty or Planetside 2. He's totally okay with Eternal Crusade because Warhammer 40k is so grim it loops around to being absurdly silly.

Also, I want to point out to some of the other posts that in 5-6,000 years of Sororitas history, only 1 has ever fallen to Chaos. The Space Marines had fully half their number turn to Chaos during the Horus Heresy, and since then have been losing a few here and there all the time, and occasionally an entire Chapter.

The Grey Knights and Ordo Malleus sparing Space Marines from execution has nothing to do with any sort of strong resistance to Chaos. Because they don't have that.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Brother Armiger wrote:
I never understood why they didn't state a simpler solution. Grey Knights are all Psykers, right? Well, if it were my fluff to write:

Grey Knights use their potent Psyker abilities to alter the perception of mortals around them. Anyone who has witnessed the Grey Knights in action will have difficulty recalling exactly which Space Marine chapter he saw. Some may argue that they saw Ultramarines, others may describe heraldry that doesn't exist, and some may not recall any details at all.

How to fix this 'Grey Knights kill anyone that sees them': Marneus Calgar sees Kaldor Draigo.

Rumor has it that if you play this out, the next morning Matt Ward will be in your kitchen, drinking your coffee from your favorite mug. He'll autograph a Codex as 'Spiritual Liege'.

I think the only reason that everyone who sees a Grey Knight in battle is killed (excepting Astartes and VIPs, but not excepting Sororitas, Mechanicus or anyone else that's not a Space Marine or specially important) is because Grey Knights in the fluff dedicate their efforts exclusively against Daemons, and knowledge of Daemons or Chaos is punishable by death by the Inquisition because the mere knowledge can lead to an entire planet being overrun by daemons. So if you ever see a Grey Knight in battle, they're fighting a demon, and thus you've seen a demon.

Astartes have to know about Chaos because they're one of the main tools in fighting Chaos Space Marines and very helpful in fighting Daemons, and they're also notoriously difficult to reproduce due to needing the gene-seed. Astartes can also live up to a thousand years if not killed in battle first, and spend most of their time as Astartes either actively fighting in war zones or getting ready to fight in a war zone, making them worth investing effort into sparing.

Sororitas are far more numerous than Astartes (though this is debatable) and their duties typically lie with protecting holy sites, protecting Ecclesiarchy personnel and buildings, killing heretics (not necessarily Chaos-worshippers), and protecting pilgrimage routes. They don't live longer than an ordinary human (Living Saints aside), and physiologically they're just ordinary human beings in great physical condition, which are a dime a dozen in the overall Imperium. Grey Knights don't view those duties as being critical to the effort against Daemons, and view them as easily replaceable (which given their casualty rates in the lore, they must be), and the Ordo Malleus probably treats them similarly.

Important people get a pass because they have political pull that makes things easier. Also because important people get special treatment in 40k.

Also, your fluff ignores the Imperium's (and Astartes' in particular, with a few exceptions) general disregard for the value of human life. They don't care about the thousands they kill to keep Daemons a secret. They're not worth expending psyker powers on to keep alive.

Which all falls completely apart as soon as you look at Cadians. You know, the most famous, most successful, most prolific IG regiment in the entire Imperium, all from Cadia, a giant military academy placed on Chaos' doorstep with the explicit intention of guarding against Chaos incursions. Including not least of which... wait for it: daemons!

Keeping Chaos and daemons secret from everyone except Space Marines doesn't make any sense. It never has. Hence why the Grey Knights and their fluff are stupid.

To be fair, WH40k is a setting that's so over-the-top with grimdark that it's essentially a parody of grimdark.

A friend of mine hates FPS/TPS computer games that are all militaristic and gritty like Call of Duty or Planetside 2. He's totally okay with Eternal Crusade because Warhammer 40k is so grim it loops around to being absurdly silly.

Also, I want to point out to some of the other posts that in 5-6,000 years of Sororitas history, only 1 has ever fallen to Chaos. The Space Marines had fully half their number turn to Chaos during the Horus Heresy, and since then have been losing a few here and there all the time, and occasionally an entire Chapter.

The Grey Knights and Ordo Malleus sparing Space Marines from execution has nothing to do with any sort of strong resistance to Chaos. Because they don't have that.

I would argue they have above average resistance in 40k as a result of all the indoctrination. But the main reason they aren't killed is that they're too expensive to make. Which is how most of the Imperium works.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Greyknights do no mind wipe to protect their seacret- they execute those who have encountered choas because they do not take any chances with demonic possesion. Only a greyknight can resist the possesion of choas or so they believe. It is said that any forces of the imperium that stand with the greyknight against choas are instantly exterminated after the battle. This is why they a unknown to the imperium - no one lives to tell the tale because greyknight only fight against demonic incursion. In the fluff - greyknight are as legend - each a carfully selected super marine psyker. The tabletop representation is so poor i refuse to play the army anymore.

If Grey Knights followed lore on the tabletop, they'd only be allowed to fight Chaos armies including Daemons, and the Chaos player would get absolutely stomped every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I would argue they have above average resistance in 40k as a result of all the indoctrination. But the main reason they aren't killed is that they're too expensive to make. Which is how most of the Imperium works.

Agreed.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

The whole "Knights Errant are the Grey Knights" just does not work. Psykers are genetic evolutions, you can't just make it..

Then how is it that people magically become psykers just by learning about the warp?


To be blunt, there's no reason they could not be Grey Knights. They have contacts with the black ships, they work for the inquisition, and they seem to have an uncanny knack for putting down daemons and other warp phenomena. Black Library has been about as subtile as a titan CC weapon about the fact that the knights errant are the founding Grey Knights.

And, importantly, looking at the procedure for 'founding' a new SM organization as exists and, apparently, existed, they'd take Space Marines either from the Death Watch or from the parent chapter, to train up the new marines in how to fight. From the assorted Knights, I'd say they have a good cross section of what the Grey Knights do.

Which is just fanfiction from the writers having no actual understanding of the setting. Psykers have a genetic mutation, an evolution. You can't just evolve all of a sudden.

As for this Knights Errant thing, its quite simple. When enough people follow a series, there becomes fantheories and fanfavourites, usually with the theories revolving around the favourites having some pivotal role in the overall story. Then the writer(s) get a hold of that theory and throw hints in for fun. Then people keep reading to say "told you so!" And money comes in so they roll with it and make it canon despite how bad or functionally impossible it is. Example; Garro and co suddenly come back from just being a forgotten watermark on history as they should be, to being some of the most important members of the universe with a natural ability to fight beings of utter madness? Purely driven by fantheory and simply being popular so that more novels will be sold that feature them. Stories to such an extent make me sick, and until its written in black and white as canon I will not entertain such an implausible and clumsy storyline, and even then, I will still be disgusted

The simple fact of the matter is that the Grey Knights are uniform, they are all psykers, they have all always been psykers and they are made with the Emperor's geneseed. That much is black and white, in canon, in the Codex. So therefore a group that is 7/8 psykers, has no member named Janus, and does not fit the bill for the grey knights other than vague similarities, cannot be the founders of the Grey Knights.

I always thought the GKs seemed a bit silly. Rather than trying to hide their existence, why don't they just pretend to be someone else?

Hell, they could just paint their armor black. Everyone would be like, oh its the Deathwatch. Or just paint their armor to look like random chapters every time. Its just paint. One week they're ultramarines, next week they're blood angels.

Meh. Its just a waste of their time. Not to mention I doubt really anyone even cares that much. Its a big universe and who has time to worry about some random space marines you saw shooting xenos and chaos.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Greyknights do no mind wipe to protect their seacret- they execute those who have encountered choas because they do not take any chances with demonic possesion. Only a greyknight can resist the possesion of choas or so they believe. It is said that any forces of the imperium that stand with the greyknight against choas are instantly exterminated after the battle. This is why they a unknown to the imperium - no one lives to tell the tale because greyknight only fight against demonic incursion. In the fluff - greyknight are as legend - each a carfully selected super marine psyker. The tabletop representation is so poor i refuse to play the army anymore.

If Grey Knights followed lore on the tabletop, they'd only be allowed to fight Chaos armies including Daemons, and the Chaos player would get absolutely stomped every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I would argue they have above average resistance in 40k as a result of all the indoctrination. But the main reason they aren't killed is that they're too expensive to make. Which is how most of the Imperium works.

Agreed.

Incorrect, the Grey Knights do fight other enemies. They might kill Chaos Marines to prevent an incursion from ever happened at all. They might intercept a Ork fleet, that if allowed to continue, would shed so much blood a horde of Bloodthirsters would leap out willy nilly. They might kill soke Eldar or Dark Eldar to prevent Slaaneshi Daemon incursions, or Tau bringing a dangerous psychic race into the fold. The 5th Ed codex notes that after returning from a Daemonic incursion they fell across an Ork Waagh! used teleportation technology to strike at the heart and wipe out the warboss instantly, ending the Waagh! Before it began. It also mentioned how they visited the destroyed Malan'tai craftworld after hearing the psychic scream in the Warp, to which they then found N'kari and Slaanesh Daemons, but were not expecting it.

Does the codex explicitly say they have the Emperor's geneseed? Because I don't see why he would have a gene seed seeing as he isn't a Primarch or Astartes.

 argonak wrote:
I always thought the GKs seemed a bit silly. Rather than trying to hide their existence, why don't they just pretend to be someone else?

Hell, they could just paint their armor black. Everyone would be like, oh its the Deathwatch. Or just paint their armor to look like random chapters every time. Its just paint. One week they're ultramarines, next week they're blood angels.

Meh. Its just a waste of their time. Not to mention I doubt really anyone even cares that much. Its a big universe and who has time to worry about some random space marines you saw shooting xenos and chaos.

Symbolism. They are the shining knights of the imperium against the monsters in the dark of the warp. Know No Fear shows that symbolic weapons are great for Daemons, where swords and fire hurt them where bolts and plasma does gak. Why not simply make anti-daemon ammunition instead of swords? Because swords made of silver (pure material that has historically been used against monsters, as a holy material) and iron (pure element like silver vs impure creatures) are highly symbolic, and silver shining knight armour has symbolism which is better defence for Daemons.

 Deadshot wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

The whole "Knights Errant are the Grey Knights" just does not work. Psykers are genetic evolutions, you can't just make it..

Then how is it that people magically become psykers just by learning about the warp?


To be blunt, there's no reason they could not be Grey Knights. They have contacts with the black ships, they work for the inquisition, and they seem to have an uncanny knack for putting down daemons and other warp phenomena. Black Library has been about as subtile as a titan CC weapon about the fact that the knights errant are the founding Grey Knights.

And, importantly, looking at the procedure for 'founding' a new SM organization as exists and, apparently, existed, they'd take Space Marines either from the Death Watch or from the parent chapter, to train up the new marines in how to fight. From the assorted Knights, I'd say they have a good cross section of what the Grey Knights do.

Which is just fanfiction from the writers having no actual understanding of the setting. Psykers have a genetic mutation, an evolution. You can't just evolve all of a sudden.

As for this Knights Errant thing, its quite simple. When enough people follow a series, there becomes fantheories and fanfavourites, usually with the theories revolving around the favourites having some pivotal role in the overall story. Then the writer(s) get a hold of that theory and throw hints in for fun. Then people keep reading to say "told you so!" And money comes in so they roll with it and make it canon despite how bad or functionally impossible it is. Example; Garro and co suddenly come back from just being a forgotten watermark on history as they should be, to being some of the most important members of the universe with a natural ability to fight beings of utter madness? Purely driven by fantheory and simply being popular so that more novels will be sold that feature them. Stories to such an extent make me sick, and until its written in black and white as canon I will not entertain such an implausible and clumsy storyline, and even then, I will still be disgusted

The simple fact of the matter is that the Grey Knights are uniform, they are all psykers, they have all always been psykers and they are made with the Emperor's geneseed. That much is black and white, in canon, in the Codex. So therefore a group that is 7/8 psykers, has no member named Janus, and does not fit the bill for the grey knights other than vague similarities, cannot be the founders of the Grey Knights.

Uhh, unless something's changed since I've been away, GW's official stance on "canon" is that players can choose their individual canon from among the official published materials.

Also, fun fact about canon. The Emperor created the Primarchs because he wanted to have kids and he couldn't reproduce normally because the human women he tried to personally impregnate mostly died from horrific injuries sustained during the act. However, he did have blood relatives, as the descendants of the families of the shaman that sacrificed themselves to create him were all powerful psykers with glowing eyes and stuff. The Inquisition started killing them off as heretics and the survivors disappeared of their own volition.

Also the Custodes took to strutting around the Imperial Palace half-naked with various armor plates stitched to their skin.

Also the Ultramarines had a half-Eldar Chief Librarian. The Eldar mother or father was likely an outcast and a pervert because Eldar think of humans as brutish primitives fiddling in the dirt with crude tools.and they'd think of an Eldar who's into banging humans like we humans think of other humans who are into bestiality.

pm713 wrote:
Does the codex explicitly say they have the Emperor's geneseed? Because I don't see why he would have a gene seed seeing as he isn't a Primarch or Astartes.

I have quoted it on the previous page, and the last codex I believe has it explicit but I don't have it with me at uni to check.

Primarchs also don't have geneseed. Geneseed is a genetic blueprint which is used to grow new implant organs for Astartes and is collected in the prognoid glands. The DNA needed for the originals is taken from the Primarchs as a starting point. For the Grey Knights the Emperor simply used his own genetics, in the exact same method. He could have used the genetics of any human in existance, you don't need to be a Primarch, you just need to be able to donate STEM cells in order for 19 organs to be grown.

 argonak wrote:
I always thought the GKs seemed a bit silly. Rather than trying to hide their existence, why don't they just pretend to be someone else?

Hell, they could just paint their armor black. Everyone would be like, oh its the Deathwatch. Or just paint their armor to look like random chapters every time. Its just paint. One week they're ultramarines, next week they're blood angels.

Meh. Its just a waste of their time. Not to mention I doubt really anyone even cares that much. Its a big universe and who has time to worry about some random space marines you saw shooting xenos and chaos.

They can't do that. Nothing's as stylish as shining silver armor oiled up with the blood of loyal Imperial citizens.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Does the codex explicitly say they have the Emperor's geneseed? Because I don't see why he would have a gene seed seeing as he isn't a Primarch or Astartes.

I have quoted it on the previous page, and the last codex I believe has it explicit but I don't have it with me at uni to check.
.

So you did.

Honestly I still read that more as a "The Emperor created their geneseed like he did with Primarchs" thing than it literally comes from him physically. It might be based on him more than anyone else though.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Again, it's not the Grey Knights that kill or mindwipe bystanders, it's the Inquisition. And the Inquistion does it to protect the Imperium because knowledge of Chaos can be a gate to an incursion.

SJ

It doesn't matter who supposedly does it- in the end, it's dumb. Like impossibly dumb, on a level that has Ward doing cartwheels in his Dreadknight in Sororitas blood puddes. The little weirdo was simply trying to redirect the lore of WH40k and shape it into what he wanted it to be. He was known to hate everything that wasn't part of his little vision. The Grey Knights needed some kind of validation to make them awesome, so just like he did with his Ultrasmurfs- he dropped his trousers and pushed out a hot stink-cable all over everything else.

Do you really think the Inquisition is executing/mind-wiping all the Cadians? Gaunt's Ghosts? Astartes that have gone toe-to-toe with Traitor Legions and Daemons and have, on several occasions, discussed said threat in detail ? The Custodes? Anyone who's ever looked out the window during Warp travel?

Besides, you keep saying "Knowledge of Chaos"- that does not mean 'seeing a demon'. To be perfectly fair, a lot of normal people of the Imperium would see a daemon and chances are, 'Demon from Hell' or 'weird-nasty Xenos' are far more likely to occur in their mind by a long shot than, "Holy crap, that's a Bloodletter of Khorne".

I don't think it is dumb: here, in the present day on Earth, there are people believing in Satan etc...
Satan doesn't exist and has believers.
Now, what do you think will happen if suddenly, everyone on Earth become aware than Satan EXIST and can actually grant your wishes ?
So many people will make a pact with him...

In 40k, it is the same: obviously, some people, like the Cadian, may be aware of the deamons.
But most of the people shouldn't know this.
Especially in the Imperium where life is short and rude.

Ps: Space Marines have a better resistance to Chaos. Even if now there are tons of chaos space marines warbands, it is clearly stated it is rare and very dangerous when it happen.
Normal humans aren't as showed as the marines just because, you know, marines are the poster boys (and nobody, even GW itself, can record how many IG/PDF regiments gone rogue^^).

 godardc wrote:
I don't think it is dumb: here, in the present day on Earth, there are people believing in Satan etc...
Satan doesn't exist and has believers.
Now, what do you think will happen if suddenly, everyone on Earth become aware than Satan EXIST and can actually grant your wishes ?
So many people will make a pact with him...

Context, though: In 40k, it's different. You have to imagine it this way:

Satan shows up one day. Except you've never heard of 'Satan'. You don't know what a 'Satan' is. The closest to demons you have is from a hundred different pagan religions of contradicting narratives that makes no sense, you probably think it's Pan. Or maybe a Djinn prince. Or Dis Pater.

All you know is 'monster bad' and you run away.

That's how the people of 40k are with Chaos. They don't know 'Chaos', they just know 'Demon Scary thing, run away or kill it'.

 Brother Armiger wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I don't think it is dumb: here, in the present day on Earth, there are people believing in Satan etc...
Satan doesn't exist and has believers.
Now, what do you think will happen if suddenly, everyone on Earth become aware than Satan EXIST and can actually grant your wishes ?
So many people will make a pact with him...

Context, though: In 40k, it's different. You have to imagine it this way:

Satan shows up one day. Except you've never heard of 'Satan'. You don't know what a 'Satan' is. The closest to demons you have is from a hundred different pagan religions of contradicting narratives that makes no sense, you probably think it's Pan. Or maybe a Djinn prince. Or Dis Pater.

All you know is 'monster bad' and you run away.

That's how the people of 40k are with Chaos. They don't know 'Chaos', they just know 'Demon Scary thing, run away or kill it'.

Or a "Space Marine" shows up and starts preaching about a better life, no servitude to the Imperium. You think nothing of it until suddenly you see that poor leper from Hab block 1717 is suddenly the richest man in town and he's cured and says its thanks to that preaching Marine. Then you see ugly Berta, except she's now 5'9" blonde bombshell. Says its because of Chaos. So you go along and you get roped in because its a Space Marine, who would question it? So he says you can have everything you want, you just have to do this one tiny thing, read this note in front of a mirror, then say yes. And then he says you can take over the Hive altogether and never have to pay tithes or taxes or work a day again. Just gather in the city centre and say these words.

Or, you start to hear whispers of discontent, and how the next hive over suddenly revolted AND WON. You start to see strange symbols in graffiti, that give you a headache that's oddly pleasant. The whispers turn to screams and suddenly you are storming the governor's palace to string him up by his entrails.

Or the card dealer across the street suddenly has a monster burst from his skull and butcher thousands of people before the "Arbites" come and execute everyone who saw it, and you run and hide in fear and seek to spread the story of what you saw as if you're Jason Bourne.

And so the cycle goes. Chaos is to the Imperium what Communism is to Cold War US. It promises an individually better life, that for selfish individuals at the bottom of the food chain with no foresight, sounds like a dream. So they latch on and seize control for this new regime, brutally murdering the ones keeping things in control and running. Except they then (literally in Chaos case) invite the devil through the front door and he's 100 times worse.

The Imperium is harsh, but honest and necessary to keep the human race going. Chaos spins lies of a better life and will be the death of humanity. Isnt that what the Cabal originally intended when they put AL on Horus' side? He wins, humanity dies, Chaos ends?

Anyway, none of those scenarios happen if Chaos is a secret. If the secret had been kept all those years ago, you would have no Chaos Marines spreading rumours, no whispers. You round up all the psykers and no Daemons burst from their heads. No one spreads the word of a Daemon either.

Imagine if there was no Bible, and Satan shows up. You shout monster,Church-going soldiers blow it up then kill you. No one goes investigating, no one questioning, job done, world keeps spinning.

 Deadshot wrote:


Imagine if there was no Bible, and Satan shows up. You shout monster,Church-going soldiers blow it up then kill you. No one goes investigating, no one questioning, job done, world keeps spinning.

No Bible? No Abrahamic texts? Nothing to reference this creature by name?

ME: "Wow, Soldier-guys... what was that?"

SOLDIER GUYS: "A fire monster."

ME: "Oh. Well, hopefully we get those under control, thanks a lot."


That's my point. You see a monster. It's covered in fire. Or maggots. Or weird feathers and magic. Or... dammit, Slaanesh...

You see a monster. You have no real frame of reference. If someone said 'Khorne' you'd ask if it they had butter. You don't have 'knowledge of Chaos'. You've just witnessed a monster.

There's a huge difference in a guy who's studying heretical texts and starting cults that infiltrate multiple parts of the civilization, and some guy on a battlefield that sees a big horned angry sword monster.

 godardc wrote:
I don't think it is dumb: here, in the present day on Earth, there are people believing in Satan etc...

To be fair, some Satanic religions don't believe Satan is an actual thing, they just treat him as a symbol. They also tend to be all in favor of helping out their neighbours and communities because doing so makes a better place for themselves to live. Helping charities is also something they do because one day it might be them in need of some help, and supporting a charity's existence that might one day help you when you need it is in your best interest. In essence, these Satanists do good things, but because they're in their own interest instead of just because they're good things to do.

Satan doesn't exist and has believers.

Though of course there are others that treat Satan as an actual deity...

Now, what do you think will happen if suddenly, everyone on Earth become aware than Satan EXIST and can actually grant your wishes ?
So many people will make a pact with him...

The US military apparently has plans on dealing with things as bizarre as space alien invasions and zombie apocalypses. It wouldn't surprise me if they had a plan to invade Hell and defeat Satan's demon armies on the off-chance they exist.

Also I envision a lot of people with terminal illnesses suddenly becoming Satanists.

In 40k, it is the same: obviously, some people, like the Cadian, may be aware of the deamons.
But most of the people shouldn't know this.
Especially in the Imperium where life is short and rude.

The Ordo Malleus probably figures that there needs to be a heavily-defended bulwark against Chaos incursions, and that it can't be staffed exclusively by Marines. So the Cadians are probably there because they're the best Guardsmen humanity could offer, and the Ordo Malleus tolerates their knowledge because killing off an entire planet of some of the best Guardsmen the galaxy has to offer would be a waste of a precious resource.

Wouldn't surprise me if indoctrination on Cadia were specially-designed and strictly-enforced to harden Cadians against Chaos taint (more than ordinary human Guardsmen). Also wouldn't surprise me if the planet had a secret self-destruct button in case the Cadians broke down and went Chaos.

Ps: Space Marines have a better resistance to Chaos. Even if now there are tons of chaos space marines warbands, it is clearly stated it is rare and very dangerous when it happen.
Normal humans aren't as showed as the marines just because, you know, marines are the poster boys (and nobody, even GW itself, can record how many IG/PDF regiments gone rogue^^).

Oh, I know. Sororitas have a better record for not going Chaos than Astartes though, while also outnumbering them significantly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Brother Armiger wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I don't think it is dumb: here, in the present day on Earth, there are people believing in Satan etc...
Satan doesn't exist and has believers.
Now, what do you think will happen if suddenly, everyone on Earth become aware than Satan EXIST and can actually grant your wishes ?
So many people will make a pact with him...

Context, though: In 40k, it's different. You have to imagine it this way:

Satan shows up one day. Except you've never heard of 'Satan'. You don't know what a 'Satan' is. The closest to demons you have is from a hundred different pagan religions of contradicting narratives that makes no sense, you probably think it's Pan. Or maybe a Djinn prince. Or Dis Pater.

All you know is 'monster bad' and you run away.

That's how the people of 40k are with Chaos. They don't know 'Chaos', they just know 'Demon Scary thing, run away or kill it'.

Or a "Space Marine" shows up and starts preaching about a better life, no servitude to the Imperium. You think nothing of it until suddenly you see that poor leper from Hab block 1717 is suddenly the richest man in town and he's cured and says its thanks to that preaching Marine. Then you see ugly Berta, except she's now 5'9" blonde bombshell. Says its because of Chaos. So you go along and you get roped in because its a Space Marine, who would question it? So he says you can have everything you want, you just have to do this one tiny thing, read this note in front of a mirror, then say yes. And then he says you can take over the Hive altogether and never have to pay tithes or taxes or work a day again. Just gather in the city centre and say these words.

Or, you start to hear whispers of discontent, and how the next hive over suddenly revolted AND WON. You start to see strange symbols in graffiti, that give you a headache that's oddly pleasant. The whispers turn to screams and suddenly you are storming the governor's palace to string him up by his entrails.

Or the card dealer across the street suddenly has a monster burst from his skull and butcher thousands of people before the "Arbites" come and execute everyone who saw it, and you run and hide in fear and seek to spread the story of what you saw as if you're Jason Bourne.

And so the cycle goes. Chaos is to the Imperium what Communism is to Cold War US. It promises an individually better life, that for selfish individuals at the bottom of the food chain with no foresight, sounds like a dream. So they latch on and seize control for this new regime, brutally murdering the ones keeping things in control and running. Except they then (literally in Chaos case) invite the devil through the front door and he's 100 times worse.

The Imperium is harsh, but honest and necessary to keep the human race going. Chaos spins lies of a better life and will be the death of humanity. Isnt that what the Cabal originally intended when they put AL on Horus' side? He wins, humanity dies, Chaos ends?

Anyway, none of those scenarios happen if Chaos is a secret. If the secret had been kept all those years ago, you would have no Chaos Marines spreading rumours, no whispers. You round up all the psykers and no Daemons burst from their heads. No one spreads the word of a Daemon either.

Imagine if there was no Bible, and Satan shows up. You shout monster,Church-going soldiers blow it up then kill you. No one goes investigating, no one questioning, job done, world keeps spinning.

I was under the impression that the Chaos Gods are made from the emotions of every being with a soul in the galaxy. Both good and bad emotions. As such, the only way to truly end the Chaos gods would be to kill every Human, Eldar, C'tan and such in existence. No survivors.

Yes, it ends the Chaos Gods, but at the price of humanity's very existence.

The daemonic incursions we see in 40k take on many forms, from literal breaches in the materium spewing out daemonic hordes to a passage in an old book that speaks to the reader of power. The Imperial military will mobilies to fight the first while the Inquisition fights the second, with the Grey Knights fighting every incursion between the two. Some great examples can be found in Emperor's Gift, where we see Grey Knights backing up an Inquisitor in one instance, Grey Knights tackling a daemonic infestation on their own in another instance, Grey Knights stopping a Greater Daemon Prince while another Chapter held off the darmon host, the Grey Knights following Inquisitorial orders to purge effected citizens, and the Grey Knights actively seeking out incursions before they occur.

The thing stupid about it is that Grey Knights are not Legion size, as the job they do requires far more bodies than they have in service.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The daemonic incursions we see in 40k take on many forms, from literal breaches in the materium spewing out daemonic hordes to a passage in an old book that speaks to the reader of power. The Imperial military will mobilies to fight the first while the Inquisition fights the second, with the Grey Knights fighting every incursion between the two. Some great examples can be found in Emperor's Gift, where we see Grey Knights backing up an Inquisitor in one instance, Grey Knights tackling a daemonic infestation on their own in another instance, Grey Knights stopping a Greater Daemon Prince while another Chapter held off the darmon host, the Grey Knights following Inquisitorial orders to purge effected citizens, and the Grey Knights actively seeking out incursions before they occur.

The thing stupid about it is that Grey Knights are not Legion size, as the job they do requires far more bodies than they have in service.

SJ

Surgical castration and mind control seem like okay prices to pay to join the Tau Empire when you put it that way.

 Deadshot wrote:

Which is just fanfiction from the writers having no actual understanding of the setting. Psykers have a genetic mutation, an evolution. You can't just evolve all of a sudden.

I'll take their employment by GW/BL over your lack of said. And yes you can, he's called Tzeench.

 Deadshot wrote:
Stories to such an extent make me sick, and until its written in black and white as canon I will not entertain such an implausible and clumsy storyline, and even then, I will still be disgusted

Well, as far as the Knight Errant being specifically the Grey Knights, not yet (it's likely coming soon though) but as far as the psyker thing, yeah, it's canon, you can become a psyker by reading a book (slaanesh/Tzeench), or catching a disease (nurgle), or implanting yourself with alien tech (pick your xenos), or just knowing a daemon's true name (any Chaos).

Those are just the more tame ways from codecies. Wait till you get into some of the gak BL has come up with....

pm713 wrote:
Does the codex explicitly say they have the Emperor's geneseed? Because I don't see why he would have a gene seed seeing as he isn't a Primarch or Astartes.

The astartes geneseed is based on the characteristics of a primarch, beings genetically engineered by the emperor. The Gk geneseed is based on the emperor's characteristics, similar to, but not identical to the custodes.

The knights errant absolutely do become the grey knights. Individuals are selected that are either active psykers, or have latent psychic abilities (aka whoever they want to shoehorn into the founding 8). The geneseed that they are given brings out their psychic potential (hence why most are relatively weak psychically). Garro's "women's intuition" is an example of such plot shenanigans.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Libertas will become the titan sword.