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Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.

From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.

 adamsouza wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.

From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.

I get that...but only so many times to be disappointed till its a lost cause. Someone already mentioned how its gonna go. Starts good, they release actual game info, people drop off cause they see its crap, then mantic throws in 5000 more items to "make it a amazing deal" gets some people back, its delayed cause they added to much, people get it, and the game turns out to be meh, with meh quality figures and not worth it.

That's been just about every mantic KS. Ive been in a bunch of their, don't plan to ever be again til they chance

str00dles1 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.

From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.

I get that...but only so many times to be disappointed till its a lost cause. Someone already mentioned how its gonna go. Starts good, they release actual game info, people drop off cause they see its crap, then mantic throws in 5000 more items to "make it a amazing deal" gets some people back, its delayed cause they added to much, people get it, and the game turns out to be meh, with meh quality figures and not worth it.

That's been just about every mantic KS. Ive been in a bunch of their, don't plan to ever be again til they chance

The problem is that they operate on "good enough" principals rather than an actual attempt to make a quality product the first time. They're so dependent upon Kickstarters that they can't delay long to fix issues (or even take time to find issues) with the current campaign because it will possibly put their whole Kickstarter schedule out of whack. Seriously, it would have taken about 3 games (took my group 1) to find the issues in Deadzone 1 that made it nearly unplayable (hey, look, mortars and frag shut down the entire game).

I get that some of these guys used to work for GW but they don't have the GW customer base to get away with crap rules and crap miniatures again and again. I'll stop posting now but I'll be back when they inevitably foul something up so that I can pull a Nelson (ala Simpsons) and go "Ha! Ha!"

Best of luck those who back.

So this is another Mantic News thread which is 95% discussion not about News at all. Mods alerted

 judgedoug wrote:
So this is another Mantic News thread which is 95% discussion not about News at all. Mods alerted

I think a robust discussion on Mantic's history with Kickstarters is extremely relevant to a discussion on a Mantic Kickstarter. Past performance being the best indicator of future performance.

I say this a person that spent six months trying to get an add-on from a Mantic Kickstarter, but would still consider backing them. Mantic's business model isn't good, but it's not bad. It's unique, and for some gamers it makes a lot of sense, but for many others it's not worth the cost and wait.

Well, I for one am excited about the potential miniatures. If they use the latest boardgame plastic, the minis should be good quality and easy to work with...so long as they didn't warp in the box during shipping. My DS minis and MA minis were worth their prices (although Valendor has a texture issue that prompted the nickname Prochnow Olmos). DBX had a lot of creative aliens, and if we see some of them transported to the Warpath/SS line, I would be very happy. Mantic's been great with alien and robot representation so far, which goes a long way with me.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Well, I for one am excited about the potential miniatures. If they use the latest boardgame plastic, the minis should be good quality and easy to work with...so long as they didn't warp in the box during shipping. My DS minis and MA minis were worth their prices (although Valendor has a texture issue that prompted the nickname Prochnow Olmos). DBX had a lot of creative aliens, and if we see some of them transported to the Warpath/SS line, I would be very happy. Mantic's been great with alien and robot representation so far, which goes a long way with me.

Hmm, that's a good point. This might be a great way to get a ton of different aliens and other space scum. There's nothing wrong with backing a kickstarter for $100 hoping to eventually get a bucket of sort of generic minis for skirmish or RPG useage. I mean, that was the glory of Bones I back in the day.

Any Mantic kickstarter thread should have this discussion in. Ronnie is a lying ass and the company, after saying 4 kickstarters ago 'No more! No more!' are still churning out the same arguments.

'but we've done retailer pledges' ignoring that for the most part people are looking at the offers and buying from ks and not waiting for the retailer.

'we are a small company' holds less weight everytime it gets trotted out.

Other small companies like Hawk are doing things the right way.

 Polonius wrote:
Mantic's business model isn't good, but it's not bad. It's unique, and for some gamers it makes a lot of sense, but for many others it's not worth the cost and wait.

It's not a bad business model...
It's not a good business model...
It's THE business model.

Yeah, sorry bout that one

Thebiggesthat wrote:
Any Mantic kickstarter thread should have this discussion in. Ronnie is a lying ass and the company, after saying 4 kickstarters ago 'No more! No more!' are still churning out the same arguments.

I sincerely doubt Mantic ever claimed that they were done with using kickstarters to fund projects, especially not as far back as four KS's ago.
Either you mean something else or that's hyperbole/lies from you.

It came out of Ronnie's mouth at an open day, it's a shame I was there as a fan and not a journalist with a dictaphone.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
It came out of Ronnie's mouth at an open day, it's a shame I was there as a fan and not a journalist with a dictaphone.

If you can't back it up, perhaps you shouldn't make those claims then?

Or at least preface your allegations with it being something you heard at an open day rather than something that's documented.

I'll say what I like thanks. Others can choose to take what they want from it.

I'm sorry you don't share the same opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for completness, he said they may be one more for a massive project (this turned out to be DS)

We've had warpath, Walking dead, Dreadball and now this. I think that's four..

Thebiggesthat wrote:
I'll say what I like thanks. Others can choose to take what they want from it.

I'm sorry you don't share the same opinion.

Opinions have nothing to do with this.

Of course you can say what you like but you have given me no reason to believe your claims about what someone allegedly said years ago. Calling someone a "lying ass" and having nothing to back up that claim doesn't exactly work wonders for your credibility either.

Thebiggesthat wrote:

Other small companies like Hawk are doing things the right way.

You mean Hawk, whose first KS is already months overdue, with no eta on a shipping date?

 NTRabbit wrote:

Thebiggesthat wrote:

Other small companies like Hawk are doing things the right way.

You mean Hawk, whose first KS is already months overdue, with no eta on a shipping date?

I wasn't talking about timescales, I was talking about not hurting FLGS.

I'll duck out now, as I'll say something that will get my quick reply taken away again

Missed the first few. Was wary of Mantic KS based on the concerns raised here. Took the plunge with Dungeon Saga. Quality was okay. Was put off by what was promised versus what they delivered. Have not backed since.

I want to like Mantic. I really do. But I don't have much confidence in them right now.

I only loosely followed their other KSers, but I followed DS closely. One backer, eriochrome, extensively documented what was promised versus what was delivered/changed.

All these promises about Star Saga have an all-too-familiar ring. I don't want to go through DS again.

Yeah, this is very much one of the problems. To compare a couple of recent-ish models, Mantic can produce this:



or this:



And you don't know which one you're getting in advance. Yes, I know the horses are from WLG, but the chariots - even taken alone - are garbage.

Ok, they fired and lost the sculptor for the former who also did the DS models - basically the best sculptor they've had working for them in a long time, or possibly ever. (Remy is also hugely talented, but didn't do anything amazing for them, and Naismith's stuff is uneven), which was seemingly due to appalling management, but I'm sure they haven't alienated all of the world's good sculptors...

 Barzam wrote:
I came across a pic of what appear to be some of the player heroes on Lead Adventure.

Spoiler:

Oddly enough, I haven't seen this image anywhere else.

More pictures and artwork:


The renders look pretty swanky if you ask me. I especially like the lab technician.

Some background on the characters too, can be found on: http://blog.untilsomebodylosesaneye.net/2016/09/to-stars.html

So it looks like the heroes are anti-heroes and the Corporation are the "enemy" along with some of their plague experiments.

I thought that looked like Wrath nice to have confirmation.

If nothing else it should provide more miniatures options for GCPS and Plague factions/armies

Is that a tile? It's terrible. I have no freakin' clue what's going on there, what is a wall and what is a floor.

Wow those Chariots, not seen them before. Truly terrible.

Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.

YouKnowsIt wrote:
Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.

I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.

MaxT wrote:

YouKnowsIt wrote:
Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.

I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.

No.

If you're going to do that you relaunch the plastics and work from the base up. You don't piss off people that have already bought armies by changing the aesthetic at some random point.

 Baragash wrote:

MaxT wrote:

YouKnowsIt wrote:
Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.

I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.

No.

If you're going to do that you relaunch the plastics and work from the base up. You don't piss off people that have already bought armies by changing the aesthetic at some random point.

So, you're saying it's better throw good money after bad? If they thought a rework was in order, they'd be better served to change the aesthetic now or just not release new kits until it's been done. No, I prefer to think that Mantic thinks the elves are fine as is or they wouldn't just throw money away; someone at Mantic likes the current look or we wouldn't see new, ugly kits...beauty and eye of the beholder, etc.

So as far as I am concerned KS is something any company should pursue if it lets them produce more at a quality they want. I have only ever backed 1 mantic KS not because I was disappointed by the first (original deadzone) but because of multiple reasons;
DB xtreme; no interest
KoW 2; didn't know I could transfer my WHF army across otherwise I would have been all in.
DZ infestation; nothing that really grabbed me
Dungeon saga; a severe lack of funds at the time.
Warpath; I already own a lot of stuff for a mass battle Sci fi game.
Walking dead; no interest.
This depending on what I see and what is on offer I may dip in but I am far more interested in the KoW skirmish game

 agnosto wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

MaxT wrote:

YouKnowsIt wrote:
Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.

I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.

No.

If you're going to do that you relaunch the plastics and work from the base up. You don't piss off people that have already bought armies by changing the aesthetic at some random point.

So, you're saying it's better throw good money after bad? If they thought a rework was in order, they'd be better served to change the aesthetic now or just not release new kits until it's been done. No, I prefer to think that Mantic thinks the elves are fine as is or they wouldn't just throw money away; someone at Mantic likes the current look or we wouldn't see new, ugly kits...beauty and eye of the beholder, etc.

The issue is not about the aesthetic of those Elf chariots. It's with the execution. Keep the existing Mantic Elf aesthetic, but improve on the execution. This means produce a quality sculpt, not a gakky one. Simples.

Here's an example of keeping the early aesthetic but improving on the newer sculpts. From Mantic.



Now even if you like the first model, the execution on the second one is far superior - and they both retain the same general aesthetic.

here's a GW example:



Same deal. Sub-par models don't need to be followed up with more sub-par models. Keep the same general aesthetic, but improve on the sculpt. The Mantic plastic elves aren't that bad as sculpts anyway - I don't much like their skinny nature, but they're reasonable sculpts - but that chariot sculpt is far poorer than the plastic elves standing in them.

Anyway, we digress a little with this, but to bring it back to the main topic - while renders as shown above are a bit "safer", until they actually deliver on the Warpath KS models we won't know how well they turn out in hand. Mantic models based on concept art is far too much of a gamble, though - and the relevance of those chariots comes in at that point since they show that Mantic still finds terribly sub-par models to be acceptable quality to release in 2016 (yes, present-day argument). This unfortunately shows that they're more concerned with releasing anything that they consider "good enough" over having a minimum level of quality that represents quality. So anything without renders or a green is pledged for at our own risk.

YouKnowsIt wrote:
Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.

Mantic Elves being spindly has nothing to do with the chariot looking like it is made of Play-doh. That's a result of an incompetent sculptor and Mantic's policy of green-lighting any old piece of crap, not an aesthetic choice.

 adamsouza wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.

From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.

Ask about the Adventurer's Companion.
Specifically, what was promised and "sold" to backers, and how it compared to what was delivered. They seem to be making similar promises again on the topic of the rules here, so it's not unreasonable to discuss that, especially so newer and potential backers are aware and informed. Caveat Emptor.

Didn't we hear the same promises when DS was running?

Anyway, those minis look blah and the tile is confusing. Easy pass for me.