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Good points all of them. It is the result of 40k fiction being almost entirely Imperium-centric. The Imperium spans the entire galaxy, it contains the majority of playable armies in 40k and therefore the vast majority of fluff is centered on it and has Human protagonists.
By contrast, in Fantasy, the Empire and Humans never had the same kind of central position. The attention was far more fairly distributed among all factions (altough some, like the Beastmen still got the short end of the stick).
For all its grimdarkness, the 40k setting is actually quite optimistic with Humanity always beating back every threat the evil, uncaring galaxy throws at them through their great determination, courage etc. and coming out stronger in the end. The Imperium is so huge that defeats do not matter. Again, they will come back stronger from their defeat and win anyway in the long run. Defeats for the Imperium in 40k always seem temporary at best.
By contrast, the Empire in Fantasy always got trampled on, it did not have the size and power of the Imperium in 40k. They were always struggling against every invasion and often failed, suffering huge losses and being nearly destroyed several times (before being finally defeated and totally destroyed in the end of course). 40k has always lacked the sense of desperate struggle that Fantasy had.

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

And so what if the Imperium loses Armageddon? It has a million worlds more and infinite manpower to defend them with. If the Imperium loses Armageddon, what would prevent it from launching a counterattack or just making a stand at the next planet? And that is only if they actually do lose Armageddon. We all know that won't happen, but that instead the heroic Space Marines will come in to save the day (unless GW has a new toy they want to sell. Then that will come in to save the day). That is how it always goes in 40k. A very dark and bleak outcome is threatened, but then avoided at the last moment. In 40k, the Orks will never sack Holy Terra and rampage through the Imperial Palace.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

And so what if the Imperium loses Armageddon? It has a million worlds more and infinite manpower to defend them with. If the Imperium loses Armageddon, what would prevent it from launching a counterattack or just making a stand at the next planet? And that is only if they actually do lose Armageddon. We all know that won't happen, but that instead the heroic Space Marines will come in to save the day (unless GW has a new toy they want to sell. Then that will come in to save the day). That is how it always goes in 40k. A very dark and bleak outcome is threatened, but then avoided at the last moment. In 40k, the Orks will never sack Holy Terra and rampage through the Imperial Palace.

there are well over 100 companies on Armageddon now and they are not stopping it, the problem is the Imperium has dedicated so much man power to Armageddon juust to slow down Ghazghkull's armies that they are losing that way, the Imperium has many more enemies out there and for them to attribute so much power to one planet is not a smart move, except to slow down the Orks some.

and you think GW won't have the Orks attack Holy Terra? think of all the stuff they can sell if they do? look what happened to WHFB ? have you read the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull? cause thats how the book makes it look like the direction GW is going with an Imperium wide WAAAGH! even hitting Holy Terra.

@Asterios: When was Hive Infernus conquered? Also do you have any names of battles of importance in the Ash Wastes?

Also what fluff about Armageddon are you reading? All Fluff I've seen describes it as a complete stalemate with neither side gaining an advantage? Where are you coming with this 'The Orks are winning everything on Armageddon'?

Additionally I have read the Ghazghkull supplement. I just read it now again to see if what you're talking about is true, and found that nowhere within it does Ghazghkull defeat the Imperium even once in an engagement. It doesn't even mention his one victory Golgotha. It mentions the 2nd Armageddon War, which he loses, it mentions Piscina, which he loses and then it mentions the 3rd Armageddon War, which it does not say he is going to win, but calls a stalemate. So please direct me to the named battles of importance Ghazghkull wins over the Imperium if they are as numerous as you seem to be implying.

Also I find the notion of Orks ever managing to attack Terra in the current fluff highly doubtful. But I'm not going to get involved in that.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Lord Damocles: The IA book calls it a stalemate, explicitly.

Are you basing that on page 60?

Still waiting on that citation.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: When was Hive Infernus conquered? Also do you have any names of battles of importance in the Ash Wastes?

Also what fluff about Armageddon are you reading? All Fluff I've seen describes it as a complete stalemate with neither side gaining an advantage? Where are you coming with this 'The Orks are winning everything on Armageddon'?

Additionally I have read the Ghazghkull supplement. I just read it now again to see if what you're talking about is true, and found that nowhere within it does Ghazghkull defeat the Imperium even once in an engagement. It doesn't even mention his one victory Golgotha. It mentions the 2nd Armageddon War, which he loses, it mentions Piscina, which he loses and then it mentions the 3rd Armageddon War, which it does not say he is going to win, but calls a stalemate. So please direct me to the named battles of importance Ghazghkull wins over the Imperium if they are as numerous as you seem to be implying.

Also I find the notion of Orks ever managing to attack Terra in the current fluff highly doubtful. But I'm not going to get involved in that.

I call Shenanigans, go read page 21 of the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull codex it will answer your questions. as to the ash wastes that is on page 20 and no where does it say the battle on armageddon is a stalemate, tell me what page that is on? also it is not a paper type or soft cover type supplement it is a codex hard cover book.

also as a sideline factoid the inside back cover of the Codex Armageddon has a map showing some of the battles and such.

Asterios wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

And so what if the Imperium loses Armageddon? It has a million worlds more and infinite manpower to defend them with. If the Imperium loses Armageddon, what would prevent it from launching a counterattack or just making a stand at the next planet? And that is only if they actually do lose Armageddon. We all know that won't happen, but that instead the heroic Space Marines will come in to save the day (unless GW has a new toy they want to sell. Then that will come in to save the day). That is how it always goes in 40k. A very dark and bleak outcome is threatened, but then avoided at the last moment. In 40k, the Orks will never sack Holy Terra and rampage through the Imperial Palace.

there are well over 100 companies on Armageddon now and they are not stopping it, the problem is the Imperium has dedicated so much man power to Armageddon juust to slow down Ghazghkull's armies that they are losing that way, the Imperium has many more enemies out there and for them to attribute so much power to one planet is not a smart move, except to slow down the Orks some.

and you think GW won't have the Orks attack Holy Terra? think of all the stuff they can sell if they do? look what happened to WHFB ? have you read the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull? cause thats how the book makes it look like the direction GW is going with an Imperium wide WAAAGH! even hitting Holy Terra.

That is what GW has been going with for many many years now. But it never happens. The sense of impending doom has always been there, it is a big part of 40k fluff. But so far it has always been averted at the last moment in every story. In all of the years of 40k, the Imperium has never yet suffered a major, permanent and irrecoverable loss. In Fantasy, the Empire lost entire provinces and had all of its major cities sacked and destroyed at least once, the Elves had a significant part of their kingdom swallowed up by the sea and were stuck in a permanent civil war and the Dwarves were pushed from their once huge empire to just a few surviving holds. In 40k, no faction ever suffered a loss quite like that.

Also, a 100 companies is about 25,000 men. Hardly a shocking number. World War 2 was a far larger conflict than the Third War for Armageddon.

 Anemone wrote:

The strongest Psykers that we know of, without a doubt, are the Emperor, the Primarchs and then Malcador.

Fixed that for you

How do we know that an unfettered Eldar psyker couldn't squash E-Money like a bug? There's no evidence one way or the other. It's simply the fact that humanity is the protagonist of so many more works of fiction that we know more about them.

In one of the eldar codices, there's a tract where an eldar states that 'Eldrad...warned that weakling seer you call emperor' about the heresy.

Not much of a psychic powerhouse if he couldn't see that coming. Yeah he can melt your brain with his mind, but he can't see further than the end of his own nose. Same with Magnus. A lot of psychic power, but couldn't see that bellowing a psychic warning shout across the galaxy (helped along by Tzeentch's power to breach the webway, before that's stated as evidence of his power) straight into daddy's eardrum might not be the wisest thing to do.

More raw power than the fettered eldar psykers we see today, definitely. More foresight? Hell no. Power is not limited to brute force, mon-keigh

Again, saying all that, I do think GW could do a bit of a better job making the Imperium seem fallible...

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

And so what if the Imperium loses Armageddon? It has a million worlds more and infinite manpower to defend them with. If the Imperium loses Armageddon, what would prevent it from launching a counterattack or just making a stand at the next planet? And that is only if they actually do lose Armageddon. We all know that won't happen, but that instead the heroic Space Marines will come in to save the day (unless GW has a new toy they want to sell. Then that will come in to save the day). That is how it always goes in 40k. A very dark and bleak outcome is threatened, but then avoided at the last moment. In 40k, the Orks will never sack Holy Terra and rampage through the Imperial Palace.

there are well over 100 companies on Armageddon now and they are not stopping it, the problem is the Imperium has dedicated so much man power to Armageddon juust to slow down Ghazghkull's armies that they are losing that way, the Imperium has many more enemies out there and for them to attribute so much power to one planet is not a smart move, except to slow down the Orks some.

and you think GW won't have the Orks attack Holy Terra? think of all the stuff they can sell if they do? look what happened to WHFB ? have you read the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull? cause thats how the book makes it look like the direction GW is going with an Imperium wide WAAAGH! even hitting Holy Terra.

That is what GW has been going with for many many years now. But it never happens. The sense of impending doom has always been there, it is a big part of 40k fluff. But so far it has always been averted at the last moment in every story. In all of the years of 40k, the Imperium has never yet suffered a major, permanent and irrecoverable loss. In Fantasy, the Empire lost entire provinces and had all of its major cities sacked and destroyed at least once, the Elves had a significant part of their kingdom swallowed up by the sea and were stuck in a permanent civil war and the Dwarves were pushed from their once huge empire to just a few surviving holds. In 40k, no faction ever suffered a loss quite like that.

Also, a 100 companies is about 25,000 men. Hardly a shocking number. World War 2 was a far larger conflict than the Third War for Armageddon.

you forgot the over 200 regiments of IG too and all the other forces the Imperium has sent, and as the book states that is old information. and yes the impending doom has always been there but it increases and increases with more information being shown like with the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull codex it added a whole lot of information not known before and a lot that is not even in the wikia.

also a 100 companies of SM's is about 10,000 men.

There's so much here to respond to, oi, so I'm not gonna quote and might miss some stuff. First, general;

Yeah so, for the most part, it seems the Imperium does win virtually everything of importance. It definitely isn't like Fantasy where all the factions take major blows and defeats. Just saying a victory cost. A loss doesn't matter when the Imperium has about a thousand of those in a row with no effect. So yeah, pity. but the Imperium is clearly sueish in how it can't be beat.

Now I think it was Lord Damocles (correct me if I'm wrong) but I do think he's pointed out well that Necron have the best fleet at least. So that's something.

Other than that not much else I can think to say. Really a bit of a bummer to me that human Psykers are just so much more powerful than Eldar. Also why do a bench of random shamans make someone powerful enough to frighten the Chaos Gods? How does that work at all? If it was that easy why not do it all the time.

But yeah...Ill probably pass this. It seems like the fluff is almost completely a constant Imperium win-fest, seems actual defeats, particularly I wars, can barely be brought up, at worse it's Pyrrhic victories, whilst all the other factions get their teeth kicked in a lot.

Thanks for the help though everyone.

Obviously if you're going to close your eyes and go lalalala I can't hear you, no name means its irrelelvant like Anemone does, you will never see the defeats of the Imperium...

Dead Men Walking also features an Imperial defeat, by the way, and most of the protagonists die in it, too.

also when it comes to Psychic energy I don't think the WAAAGH! psychic energy should be ignored from the green tide to Ghazghkull's ability to control actions a galaxy away or his head butting a warp portal close should be ignored.

@Bobthehero: Other than the really uncalled for personal attack, Omdomt really get what you're saying.

Did I say the Imperium has 'no defeats'?

No, just no major ones. It doesn't lose the gothic war or Tyranid wars or armageddons, or heresy or beast or any of the major wars. It also doesn't lose anywhere near as often as the other armies, sorry but that's what I've come across while reading through the lexicanum and Black Library.

The fact that the Imperium loses every now and then doesn't change that they never have defeats like Solland for the Fantasy Empire, and doesn't change that they overwhelmingly win against everyone.

Just saying there is an Imperium defeat isn't important and a pretty low bar.

But I don't like talking to people who are needlessly rude so bye.

Rocket Scientist wrote:
@Bobthehero: Other than the really uncalled for personal attack, Omdomt really get what you're saying.

Did I say the Imperium has 'no defeats'?

No, just no major ones. It doesn't lose the gothic war or Tyranid wars or armageddons, or heresy or beast or any of the major wars. It also doesn't lose anywhere near as often as the other armies, sorry but that's what I've come across while reading through the lexicanum and Black Library.

problem is that is outdated source material, the game universe is constantly changing, as to major defeats the Empire has lost whole systems to the Tau. same with them losing whole systems to the Orks and the Tyranids or even the Necrons, but GW doesn't do fluff on total defeats cause its not sellable.

A problem is that it seems to be a bit difficult to have the Imperium "Lose" anything without leaving the whole thing open ended, or just moving the victory for them elsewhere. For example, if Ghazghull had overtook Armageddon...what then? Either he'd be defeated in another location (so the Imperium still wins), or it would just say something like "The Imperium lost Armageddon and Ghazghull is now a threat to _____", which just causes another unresolved situation.

Also, Solland was a province out of 12 of the Empire, there's currently no faction that could take out one twelveth of the Imperium in a go.

Also, if a Hive Fleet plows through 20 or so planets, strips them bare of resources, kills everything on them and is then defeated by combined Imperial forces on one one planet and we only hear about that because that's the only time people survived to talk about, how is that an Imperial victory, they just lost 20 or so planets, with no hope to recolonize them. Its usually what happens in the lore, we hear about when the Imperials stop a threat, but there's a quick mention of the damage it has done, you can't say that's a victory for the Imperium when they finally stop the thing that has been destroying/eating/conquering a bunch of planets.

Iron_Captain wrote:
In all of the years of 40k, the Imperium has never yet suffered a major, permanent and irrecoverable loss. In Fantasy, the Empire lost entire provinces and had all of its major cities sacked and destroyed at least once, the Elves had a significant part of their kingdom swallowed up by the sea and were stuck in a permanent civil war and the Dwarves were pushed from their once huge empire to just a few surviving holds. In 40k, no faction ever suffered a loss quite like that.

You need to factor in the scale of things. 40k is so much bigger than fantasy. All of those things happen, every single day to every single faction in the 40kiverse. It's just spread out over a thousand million worlds.

If we are talking historically, the imperium has had quite a few near death experiences, such as the heresy, thr black crusades, the tyrannic wars etc as well as massive conflicts and civil wars such as the Nova terra insuregnum, the reign of vandire, the fourth quadrant rebellion etc. As you say, nothing 'permanent' in the strictest sense, but being realistic, each of these defeats could take a thousand years to fully recover from. And as a comparison to fantasy, how isn't it the empire gets a get out of jail free card for something similar (I mean, it lose some entire provinces, has its major cities sacked etc) but always manages To come back - it was there, still standing right up to the end times. The imperium has taken similar blows - planets and entire sectors fallen to total war, lost, destroyed etc but never loses?

As for factions thst suffered the loss of their whole empire in 40k, ever hear of the squats? Tyranids ate their homeworlds. Then there was the eldar - again, they lost their whole empire and they're struggling to hold on.

Rocket Scientist wrote:

Did I say the Imperium has 'no defeats'?

No, just no major ones. It doesn't lose the gothic war or Tyranid wars or armageddons, or heresy or beast or any of the major wars. It also doesn't lose anywhere near as often as the other armies, sorry but that's what I've come across while reading through the lexicanum and Black Library.

The imperium survived the gothic war. 'Win' is a Stretch. Abaddon won too, considering how he got precisely what he wanted.

The imperium didn't win the tyranid wars yet either. They're ongoing, and the imperium is, at best, holding on by its finger tips. They have had some temporary wins and holding actions but on the whole? Behemoth was a scouting force. And it decimated a spiral arm of the whole galaxy. Kraken still hasn't been dealt with. Leviathan represents an outflanking on a galactic scale and it's only through terrifying sacrifices that they're even holding on. When you destroy a thousand of your own planets To create a firebreak just to buy some time, as kryptman did, things aren't going too well. And then there are the countless other fleets, and strands of fleets and so on. Remember too some of the older quotes - even if they armed every man, woman and child, they still won't have enough manpower to stand up to the tyranids in the long run.

Armageddon. Again, still ongoing.

Heresy. They survived it. Win is a stretch, considering the cost of the victory. And it's Still ongoing, technically speaking.

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Also why do a bench of random shamans make someone powerful enough to frighten the Chaos Gods? How does that work at all? If it was that easy why not do it all the time.

Because it's the fabrication of a petty earth technobarbarian warlord to deify himself as the God of all mankind. The Imperial Cult is just that, a cult.

Not to step on any toes if anyone's religious, but it's similar to stating that an ordinary human resistance-movement leader in antiquity could actually walk on water, turn water into wine and resurrect himself from the dead.

All evidence I can see points to that being a fabrication of his followers generations down the line.

Any later 'miracles' are simply due to the nature of belief in the 40k universe, manifesting the god-emperor of mankind as a being in the warp, born from the fervent belief of billions upon billions of deluded souls.

Makes perfect sense, until the writers at BL discovered the vast seam of money that lay untapped in the Horus Heresy novels and started adding ridiculous things like solid background information and other such unwarranted and unhelpful things into my grimdark science-fantasy setting

Was much better when events like that were shrouded in mystery, letting people draw their own conclusions that didn't leave the door open for so many contradictory statements to be intended as truth.

Not get off my lawn!

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Also why do a bench of random shamans make someone powerful enough to frighten the Chaos Gods? How does that work at all? If it was that easy why not do it all the time.

Because it's the fabrication of a petty earth technobarbarian warlord to deify himself as the God of all mankind. The Imperial Cult is just that, a cult.

Not to step on any toes if anyone's religious, but it's similar to stating that an ordinary human resistance-movement leader in antiquity could actually walk on water, turn water into wine and resurrect himself from the dead.

All evidence I can see points to that being a fabrication of his followers generations down the line.

Any later 'miracles' are simply due to the nature of belief in the 40k universe, manifesting the god-emperor of mankind as a being in the warp, born from the fervent belief of billions upon billions of deluded souls.

Makes perfect sense, until the writers at BL discovered the vast seam of money that lay untapped in the Horus Heresy novels and started adding ridiculous things like solid background information and other such unwarranted and unhelpful things into my grimdark science-fantasy setting

Was much better when events like that were shrouded in mystery, letting people draw their own conclusions that didn't leave the door open for so many contradictory statements to be intended as truth.

Not get off my lawn!

Actually the Emperor and Jesus never said they were God (or the son of God) it was their followers after that did that is what you are saying yes? (but in more layman terms )

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Anemone wrote:

The strongest Psykers that we know of, without a doubt, are the Emperor, the Primarchs and then Malcador.

In one of the eldar codices, there's a tract where an eldar states that 'Eldrad...warned that weakling seer you call emperor' about the heresy.

Not much of a psychic powerhouse if he couldn't see that coming. Yeah he can melt your brain with his mind, but he can't see further than the end of his own nose. Same with Magnus. A lot of psychic power, but couldn't see that bellowing a psychic warning shout across the galaxy (helped along by Tzeentch's power to breach the webway, before that's stated as evidence of his power) straight into daddy's eardrum might not be the wisest thing to do.

Foresight? Hell no. Power is not limited to brute force, mon-keigh

Like Eldrad has any claim to foresight anymore! After the fiasco of Death Masque, where he failed to foresee the Deathwatch, failed to have inadequate forces to repel them, failed to have naval assets to shoot them out of the sky, failed to foresee a plasma cannon blast, failed to complete the mission that he gambled the entire eldar afterlife on.

I'd say Eldard seems rather lacking in foresight as of late.

Unlike Fantasy, where the popularity between armies was 'relatively' balanced (WoC/HE were the most popular, but not by a huge margin), the vast, vast, vast, majority of sales for 40k are some variety of Space Marine. Throw into that Imperial armies like the Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle and... well, low and behold, Games Workshop decide to focus almost all of their fluff on the Imperium - specifically the Space Marines - and even the 'big bad' threat of Chaos is largely reduced to a pin cushion for the Astartes to kill and look super 'ard doing so. We're constantly told that the Imperium of Man is "fives minutes to midnight" and on the backfoot, yet every other story portrays the opposite. I'm fairly certain Games Workshop's greatest wish is to one day dissolve 40k and turn Horus Heresy into their flagship gameline just so they don't have to spend development time and money on those annoying non-Space Marine players.

You can see this in AoS too. They kill off WHFB so they have an excuse to introduce Sigmarines, and suddenly every other story in the setting involves the Not-SpaceMarines descending from the heavens in dropo- uhhh, lightning strikes to cleanse the hereti- UHHH, Chaos Warriors.

Of course, that is what makes Xenos/Chaos all the more appealing to me. Not being the overplayed poster child has a certain appeal to it.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


Like Eldrad has any claim to foresight anymore! After the fiasco of Death Masque, where he failed to foresee the Deathwatch, failed to have inadequate forces to repel them, failed to have naval assets to shoot them out of the sky, failed to foresee a plasma cannon blast, failed to complete the mission that he gambled the entire eldar afterlife on.

I'd say Eldard seems rather lacking in foresight as of late.

That's the abomination I wanted to avoid! REally not happy with that being canon. Pick another villain for your power-armoured Mary-Sues. Someone who hasn't got more street-cred stretching back to the early editions of 40k than the latest spangly box-set you're trying to flog...

Still, even if we are going to accept that catastrophic series of events as canon, it's still not quite as big of a slip-up as plunging your whole civilisation into a 10,000 year physical and moral decline through your own lack of foresight.

Asterios wrote:

Actually the Emperor and Jesus never said they were God (or the son of God) it was their followers after that did that is what you are saying yes? (but in more layman terms )

Pretty much, yeah and it's the belief of his millions of followers that give him what power he has, not raw psychic talent as the myths of the Imperium would lead you to believe

And Eldrad's a gakky psyker, he's just a good liar, really. Explains a lot. I think the propaganda excuse being used to explain everything Imperial (but apparently everyone who isn't part of the Imperium is a reliable source, uh, funny that) is a pretty terrible one, some things, yeah (super powered Space Marines and Primarchs, mostly) but everything, meh.

Yeah I'd buy that too. Half the stories about Eldrad are probably stories told by captured eldar to try and make their captors feel inferior. The old 'the stars lived and died at our command' phrase that's thrown about about the eldar is said in exactly that context.

I didn't mean to advocate treating everything you see as propaganda, just apply a bit of a critical lens to it.

If something strikes you as particularly shoddy or poorly-thought-through writing, you can apply a filter of propaganda to it and suddenly the annoyance you had is lifted

Really it's just a more palatable way of reading fluff of variable quality

I guess that works, I suppose its just the fact that it seems to be applied to the Imperium more often than not bothered me. Might be a result of the abundance of Imperium books.

@Lord Damocles: Apologies, I must have missed your post last time in the confusion. Yes, pg 60, correct.

@Asterios: I have the online copy on my Ibooks, don't know it if makes much difference *shrug* also page 21 lists only two Ork victories; Tempestora and Hades. It calls Ghattana Bay an Ork defeat, just like the original report did, the battle at the Gate of IX.

As for where it says the battle of Armageddon is a stalemate; the Astra Militarum Codex, virtually every Warhammer site I could find. Where does it say Ghazghkull is winning?

I mean, please, are you saying Ghazghkull is winning Armageddon and that all the Warhammer Wiki's, Lexicanum and 1d4chan are wrong to list it as a Stalemate?

@Ynneadwraith: We know because there is no way GW will ever allow an Eldar Psyker to be as dangerous as Mephiston, let alone an actually powerful Psyker like Malcador, Magnus or the Emperor.

Honestly I'm really depressed that the Eldar are such weak Psykers. For the race who is consistently in Fluff most associated with Psychic the Horus Heresy clearly shows that human Psykers are all the strongest Psykers.

Remember the strongest Eldar Psyker, Eldrad, isn't even as strong as a human alpha-level psyker.

I am glad we at least agree that it would be nice for GW to make the Imperium more fallible. This Eldar point is a particular sticking point for me since my brother plays Eldar and it was kind of a disappointing revelation for both of us when we found out that not a single Eldar is in the top ten strongest Psykers.

Mentlegen324: I don't really understand that. Why not let Gazghkull just win a major battle, defeat a major Imperium army, conquer a major Imperium planet and then leave it there? What's wrong with that? Its no more 'unresolved' than anything else in the setting, but it does at least mean that the Imperium actually suffers meaningful loss and that Ghazghkull actually looks dangerous for a change.

I just don't understand the impetus to not allow any faction but the Imperium a meaningful victory.

@Bobthehero: Of course you can say its a victory for the Imperium.

Does the fact that Nazi Germany occupied great swathes of territory in Russia, wiped out and captured numerous army groups, settlements and resources mean that Russia didn't win the war? Of course not.

Suffering losses always happens in a war. If the only way to win a war is to not lose anything then no-one will ever win the war. What determines the victor of the war is the ultimate military victor of the warzone. So in the 1st Tyrannic War Behemoth was a coherent invading force which was destroyed by the Imperium, hence the Imperium are the victors there, as they were in the 2nd Tyrannic War as well.

@Deadnight: So every single piece of fluff and every single article entry on 1d4chan, lexicanum and the wiki's are wrong for describing all these Wars as Imperium victories?

Why does the community at large, and official canon, seem to consider them Imperium victories but only a handful of people here seem to insist no Imperium victory is a victory?

Why doesn't lexicanum, or the fluff, or the wiki or 1d4chan reflect this then?

I'm sorry but I'm not going to have another of these 'all Imperium victories aren't victories' discussions since it plainly isn't true and the community at large, and canon, clearly doesn't believe it to be true either considering nowhere is the Horus Heresy not listed as an Imperium victory, same for the Gothic War and the 1st and 2nd Tyrannic Wars.

@Arbitrator: Yes, I share that fear as well. Already almost every faction but the Imperium and Chaos have been rendered irrelevant by the Horus Heresy since its been established that all that really matters in the power scale is the Emperor and Primarchs.

Also, at least we're all finally agreed the Eldar are pathetic Psykers since even their so-called 'greatest' is just gakky.

I don't even know what to tell my little brother when we talk Eldar fluff anymore, not a single Eldar Psyker compares to any of the powerful human Psykers. Its incredibly disappointing for him.

See the thing is, if the Orks conquer Armageddon and go conquer other worlds only to be stopped, then you wouldn't see as a lost for the Imperium, seems to me that only the Imperium is completed destroyed, you'll never them as losing.

Vespasi-Hann was really impressive in Atlas Infernal, straight-up overwhelming one of the most powerful human psykers in the 40k universe in Ahriman.

There's also other really impressive things we've seen from the Eldar - solar system scale time-stop (the Path series), solar system scale illusions (Warriors of the Laughing God), the ability to calm the warp across a large swathe of Imperial space (Throneworld).

If you're going to keep sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring any instance where they do something impressive then sure, the Eldar will look like weak psykers. But if you actually bother to look properly, things might seem a bit different.

@bobthehero: That's ridiculous. Did the Orks massively losing at Armageddon, Sanctus, Goro and the Beast Waaagh!!! mean they were completely destroyed?

No! By insisting I'm saying that the Imperium 'has to be destroyed' you're distorting my argument.

Easy examples; let the Orks win and hold Sanctus Reach. Done. There's a nice Ork victory against a major Imperium force.

Let Ghazghkull conquer a planet, Piscina for example, to establish him as actually being potent and dangerous, showing he can defeat major Imperium forces and hold the territory.

It's completely unfair to argue that 'the status quo must be maintained because otherwise the Imperium will be destroyed' when all the other factions have had their teeth kicked in multiple times by the Imperium but have not been destroyed.

I think the setting would do much better if factions other than the Imperium were also allowed meaningful victories, meaning victories which aren't reversed, like Damnos was.

Let the Orks win Sanctus Reach, let the Eldar win something, let the Necron win and keep Damnos. None of these things destroy the Imperium but they do show that the Imperium can actually lose meaningfully, that even their major forces can lose, instead of depicting them as invincible-sues who always win in the end no matter what.

Nothing's wrong with having the galaxy in a stalemate, its gonna stay that way for sure, but let other factions also have meaningful victories the way the Imperium has from time to time. Just be more balanced in the depiction of victory and achievement is all I'm asking, for people who play factions other than the Imperium they want to see their guys being important, powerful, capable and winning major engagements too!

Here's an easy start; give Ghazghkull, or Eldrad or Vect a list of victories like Calgar, or Dante, or Azrael or Logan. Just start there.

So even if Ghazghkull obviously would have to lose sometimes, and obviously since its a setting would have to be at a point just in an 'ongoing fight', you can also give him meaningful victories such as the Imperium already has against scores of enemies, to actually make him seem dangerous. In my opinion it would only increase the fluff if Ghazghkull could be seen as a major threat because he had a number of great victories over important and large Imperium forces and planets he'd conquered and held. That would make there actually be tension and would also make Gazghkull actually seem like a threat. At current Ghazghkull just seems like an Ork Warboss who always loses the moment Space Marines arrive.

And that line 'always loses the moment Space Marines arrive' is a big problem in the fluff.

Anyway, it'd also help if the Imperium didn't seem, as Rocket Scientist said, to just be the best in almost everything and other races were also permitted to have their own aspects they surpassed the Imperium in; psychic, toughness, technology and such. It doesn't help that all ten strongest beings in the story are Human. (Not counting Chaos Gods for this since their power can't be talked about due to non-standard interaction with reality).

@Robin5t: Ahriman isn't really a strong Psyker by the standards I mean. He's way beneath all the psychic Primarchs, Malcador and the Emperor. Look, I don't really know what to say, the ten strongest Psykers in fluff are all humans. I don't see any Eldar Psyker possibly matching Lorgar, let alone Magnus, Malcador or the Emperor. For a Race who are, in Fluff, meant to be THE Psychic Race, that's not very impressive.

Again, Eldrad, should clearly give up his position of 'greatest Farseer' if their are Eldar who can freeze time in an entire Solar System (how does that even work? do they freeze the perception of time? Or do thy somehow freeze newtonian time itself within only an area?) since he can't even match an alpha-level psyker.

But I want to stop ragging on the Eldar. I honestly like Craftworld Eldar, I actually think they have some of the most interesting fluff in the setting and find the Eldar mythology one of the highpoints of GW's writing. It just brings me down.