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 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: But why must the Imperium succeed? Why not just make it in the story they can't destroy the world or take it back from the Orks? Are you saying the Imperium can never lose a planet unless they take it back later or destroy it? Why not let another faction win and then maintain the planet, what's wrong with that?

because that is how the Imperium sees it if they cannot take the planet then they will destroy it to prevent the enemy from having it if they can. and even if they take some worlds taken by Chaos they will still kill their own citizens who were on the planet, the Imperium is extreme in this way

 Anemone wrote:
But you've read the Beast Arises series haven't you? In that very series they state the Beast Waaagh!!! Covered the entire galaxy. The Beast Waaagh!!! Covered far more space than Ghazghkull's has.

big difference is Ghazghkull is one while the Beast was 6 Ork Warbosses, and yes they were bigger then Ghazghkull which illustrates how much more of a danger Ghazghkull could be.

 Anemone wrote:
Also the teleportation I'm speaking of, or phasing out is better, is psychic, I'm talking about Malcador.

and where is that from? hes noted for hiding a planet, but no where can I find him moving it. now Ork Technology actually moved a planet across the galaxy

 Anemone wrote:
And my point is why not in fluff have Ghazghkull beat a Space Marine army and conquer a planet from them.

Also the Great Crusade thought the Orks of Goro and Ullanor, not to mention Gharkul Blackfang, and the Eldar Craftworlds. Most of the victories of the Great Crusade were against Orks to be honest.

But this is my last post, I'm going to bed. This is already put of hand and no longer focused

I'll end simply by saying that if calls for there to simply be fair reflection in fluff and equitable division of fluff victories among factions is apparently this abhorrent to the fan base then clearly I am in the wrong place. I would hope we could all agree just on the need to in fluff better reflect the victories of other factions barring the Imperium. Putting aside all other issues this is really my key concern. Simply permitting the other factions to also gain a fair share of victories and importance in the narrative.

Good night.

Ghazghkull by himself almost killed Belial, he has killed a Mawloc by himself too and the fluff mentions some raids across Ultima segmentum here and there but it mentions no planets or who he fought either. just that they were assaults from small mobs to enough to over run planets against Imperial outposts and shipping lanes and even the Tau.

 Anemone wrote:


Also, uh, yes the Imperium can afford to win the way it has been. Its been doing so for 8000+ years. Clearly it can afford it.


@Lord Perversor: Isn't that just one Ork providing his opinion?

Someone with better access to fluff books help me here, but I'm pretty sure that it's explicitly stated in recent fluff that no, the Imperium can't afford to keep going. Its military power is/has been spent poorly in the last 2ish thousand years and it's beginning to pay the price as its military forces are spread thin. They've been wasted on foolish crusades. All those gains are now threatened. Yes, it worked for a while. But it's not working anymore. Again. This goes back to the setting vs story problem we're all having here. The setting of 'modern' 40K is 5 minutes to midnight. To get to 5 minutes to midnight, the Imperium had to survive the previous 9.9 thousand years. It got its ass kicked in "The Beast", but it did win and it eventually recovered. For the story to get 'here', the story had to end that way. But the Imperium did suffer massive changes as well.

 Lusall wrote:

 Anemone wrote:


Also, uh, yes the Imperium can afford to win the way it has been. Its been doing so for 8000+ years. Clearly it can afford it.


@Lord Perversor: Isn't that just one Ork providing his opinion?

Someone with better access to fluff books help me here, but I'm pretty sure that it's explicitly stated in recent fluff that no, the Imperium can't afford to keep going. Its military power is/has been spent poorly in the last 2ish thousand years and it's beginning to pay the price as its military forces are spread thin. They've been wasted on foolish crusades. All those gains are now threatened. Yes, it worked for a while. But it's not working anymore. Again. This goes back to the setting vs story problem we're all having here. The setting of 'modern' 40K is 5 minutes to midnight. To get to 5 minutes to midnight, the Imperium had to survive the previous 9.9 thousand years. It got its ass kicked in "The Beast", but it did win and it eventually recovered. For the story to get 'here', the story had to end that way. But the Imperium did suffer massive changes as well.

well for a first the Imperium made peace with the Tau, because they could not spare forces to deal with them, so that does indicate an issue with lack of troops.

@Asterios: Why does it matter how the Imperium sees it? Are you literally saying no faction is allowed to conquer a planet from the Imperium unless the Imperium destroys it or first conquers it back? How is that fair, why can't other factions beat the Imperium and hold the ground?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about Ghazghkull. Yes there is one Ghazghkull, and he is far weaker and smaller than any of the Primeorks were (they could fight Primarchs, Ghazghkull can't beat Chapter Masters) but what's your point? The Beast's Waaagh!!! was far bigger than Ghazghkull's, it engulfed the entire Galaxy and is canonically stated to have been on the verge of conquering everything. Ghazghkull's Waaagh!!! doesn't even come close to that size. Additionally Ghazghkull's tech and boyz are way weaker than the Beast's so I don't think making a comparison here is sensible.

Why are you comparing Ork Technology to Psychic? The conversation is literally about who has stronger Psychic, not about what is a comparison between technology and Psychic.

List the planets and armies Ghazghkull has defeated. I can't take him seriously as a threat if he hasn't defeated major Imperial armies and destroyed their worlds. Honestly why is this so strange too you? Calgar has dozens of armies he's defeated and world's he's conquered, I'm just asking that Ghazghkull, as the most important Ork in 40k, have a comparable success ratio.

Why is this so unacceptable to you? Let Characters from other factions score meaningful victories.

@Lusall: How can the Imperium not afford to keep going? It just recently absorbed more than 200 additional planets (not to mention however many are in the 72 star-systems it recently conquered).

Look, if an Empire is collapsing it is forced to give ground because it cannot hold it, shrinks in size because it is challenged. If the Imperium is receding then it should be losing territory, but both Asterios and BobFireBrain have already stated that any world the Imperium loses will be either reconquered or destroyed and never lost to an enemy faction.

Put simply an Empire which doesn't shrink in territory isn't diminishing. If you want me to believe the Imperium is meaningfully diminishing currently then provide me evidence of its territory being claimed by other powers, of parts of the Imperium successfully breaking away to form their own hegemons. Give me evidence of it losing more ground then it gains, of its losses actually causing it to lose important conflicts. Those are the hallmarks of an actually receding Empire.

Also, choose a date then at which the Imperium ceases 'winning' and starts 'winning in a Pyrrhic fashion' if we're going to have that conversation.

In addition no-one saying the Imperium has to be destroyed, I wish we could drop this point since no-one is saying it. All I'm saying is why not let the Imperium have major defeats like everyone else? Why not let their be huge swathes of spaces where their best went to war but, despite that, the enemy triumphed and claimed that ground for good? Why not just allow other factions to achieve that against the Imperium's major armies and characters the same way the Imperium does against them?

And why, in the current setting, must the Imperium win all the narrative supplements barring the Tau one (which I am very glad was at least a draw and not yet another Imperium victory)? What's wrong with giving a narrative supplement where the Orks win the war and claim the planet? Is that literally unacceptable to you that any faction other than the Imperium win a narrative supplement?

Also if the Imperium got its 'ass kicked' by the Beast then, by that logic, the Beast got its 'ass kicked' even worse by the Imperium, so there's no achievement. The Beast was killed, his Waaagh!!! destroyed, his forces wiped out and the worlds he took reclaimed. He was so thoroughly defeated that in just 100 years (very short considering the spaces where talking) the damage he'd inflicted had been undone and the Imperium was stronger. Saying the 'Beast kicked the Imperium's ass' is like saying 'Nazi Germany kicked the USSR's ass', it completely misses the fact that Nazi Germany lost and got its 'ass far more kicked'.

Why not make the Imperium have lost enormous pieces of territory for good in the past? If I'm not mistaken in one of the blurbs of the rulebooks its even stated that the Imperium is larger now than ever before, how is that a receding Empire?

*Sigh* seriously though, at the end of the day, what is so wrong with just giving more shine to factions other than the Imperium in the fluff?

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: Why does it matter how the Imperium sees it? Are you literally saying no faction is allowed to conquer a planet from the Imperium unless the Imperium destroys it or first conquers it back? How is that fair, why can't other factions beat the Imperium and hold the ground?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about Ghazghkull. Yes there is one Ghazghkull, and he is far weaker and smaller than any of the Primeorks were (they could fight Primarchs, Ghazghkull can't beat Chapter Masters) but what's your point? The Beast's Waaagh!!! was far bigger than Ghazghkull's, it engulfed the entire Galaxy and is canonically stated to have been on the verge of conquering everything. Ghazghkull's Waaagh!!! doesn't even come close to that size. Additionally Ghazghkull's tech and boyz are way weaker than the Beast's so I don't think making a comparison here is sensible.

Why are you comparing Ork Technology to Psychic? The conversation is literally about who has stronger Psychic, not about what is a comparison between technology and Psychic.

List the planets and armies Ghazghkull has defeated. I can't take him seriously as a threat if he hasn't defeated major Imperial armies and destroyed their worlds. Honestly why is this so strange too you? Calgar has dozens of armies he's defeated and world's he's conquered, I'm just asking that Ghazghkull, as the most important Ork in 40k, have a comparable success ratio.

Why is this so unacceptable to you? Let Characters from other factions score meaningful victories.

actually Ghazghkull almost killed Belial who is pretty close to a Chapter master as the master of the DeathWing and don't think he has ever met a chapter mster out to see if he could kill him, so saying he could not is erroneous on your part.

Ghazghkull has taken planets he has done damage, GW has just not seen fit to list them, the Fluff says he has done so, they have just not listed them, leaving them open for fluff on another day.

as to Technology and Psychic, you do realize the ORks are pretty dang strong Psyker speaking, there is a weird boy who can turn characters into squigs, Ghazghkull can communicate with his forces instantly a galaxy away, Ghazghkull has head butted a warp portal closed.

As to the Imperium, the Imperium itself states they are not victorious if a xenos still inhabits their world and if they cannot defeat them, the enact Exterminatus to wipe them out along with the planet, those are not my standards I am saying, that is the Imperium's standards for victory.

People aren't disagreeing with your basic premise: I'm sure everyone can agree that the other factions need better representation and more victories in the fluff.

What people are disagreeing with is the way you completely ignore or even write off what victories those factions do get. You claim to desire a level playing field for all then go out of your way to cheapen every non-Imperium faction even further.

@Asterios: I said Ghazghkull beat Belial, didn't I? Didn't me and Smudge already mention that?

Also do you honestly believe that Ghazghkull could beat any of the Chapter Masters?

Name the planets GW says he's taken. Really, I'm not saying this again, if he's defeated major Imperium forces and captured major Imperium worlds (or large amount of Imperium space) provide me for the fluff thereof or otherwise I'm not going to believe you.

Orks may be strong Psykers but they are still nowhere near as strong as the Emperor, Magnus or Malcador to name but three human Psykers. Headbutting a Warp Rift closed isn't as impressive as what those three have done.

Also I'm so confused about your statement regarding Imperium 'victory standards' now. What are you saying? Now you're saying the Imperium does always win?

Why not let Orks win a narrative supplement, like Sanctus Reach, beat the Wolves, put them to flight, and hold the planet? What's wrong with that?

Robin5t: I don't know, as far as I can see some people seem to be arguing that no planet is allowed to be taken unless the Imperium takes it back later or destroys it. From what I can tell quite a few people seem to be arguing against any faction but the Imperium getting better representation or victories. I'm really not sure if I can agree with your statement, although I truly wish I could.

I've said before, other factions do have some victories, they all just pale by comparison to the Imperium's. Similarly other factions do have characters, they all just pale in comparison to the Imperium's.

That's my problem. Talking as if there has been anywhere near as much success for Orks, Eldar and such in the fluff compared to the Imperium isn't true. So I dispute it.

I do believe, within the fluff, every non-Imperium faction and character are basically near-permanent losers or irrelevant. Eldrad is a good example, Ghazghkull too, they simply don't have anywhere near enough successes for me to consider them threatening or competent. To me, the thing is, I feel their achievements as depicted are very minimal compared to those of the Imperium's, and their characters very weak compared to the Imperium's. I want them to be shown to be more capable. I want players of other factions to have as many cool moments and awesome feats to their names too!

My intention isn't too disparage the other factions, all of whom I enjoy, but to instead point out how skewed the situation is and build consensus and momentum to undo that bias and give everyone more to enjoy in the fluff. Part of that is definitely raising awareness and acceptance that the fluff as it currently stands does depict other factions very poorly compared to the Imperium. Particularly the tendency for them to lack significant achievement compared to the many significant achievement of the Imperium. Also the fact that almost all the most powerful characters belong to the Imperium. I hope that by growing awareness and acceptance thereof a push among the community to want to embrace more fair and equitable content among the more neglected factions.

I am sorry if you feel this cheapens the other factions but, to me, the problem is exactly that all the other factions already look cheapened in fluff compared to the Imperium. I also find people arguing that there is equal representation, or division of victories, frustrating since its clearly not true just going by the empirical data provided.

The Imperium lost/will lose vast swaths of the western reaches during the 13th Black Crusade, including Cadia, for all intents and purposes.

 Anemone wrote:

I'll end simply by saying that if calls for there to simply be fair reflection in fluff and equitable division of fluff victories among factions is apparently this abhorrent to the fan base then clearly I am in the wrong place. I would hope we could all agree just on the need to in fluff better reflect the victories of other factions barring the Imperium. Putting aside all other issues this is really my key concern. Simply permitting the other factions to also gain a fair share of victories and importance in the narrative.

I think the issue is the tack that's been taken with this argument.

If you'd said 'the enemies of mankind must be winning all the time, but the writers never put it in the fluff. What gives?' this would have been at most a 2-page thread of people agreeing with you.

What you've said actually ended up arguing is 'the enemies of the IoM must be gak because I never read about them winning'.

See the difference?

Exactly. The way you phrase your arguments is unnecessarily inflammatory to the people you aren't supposed to be arguing against.

Because of this, the people who should really have been taking your side in this argument from the word go (a.k.a the non-Imperium players) turned against you because you basically sound like you're trying to start a fight with them.

@Psiensis: To my knowledge everything regarding prior fluff of the 13th Black Crusade is very contentious within the fanbase. For now, at least, I'd prefer to work on what has definitely occured within the fluff, and for the Black Crusade I will wait to see how GW now makes it pan out in their new supplements focused on the Black Crusade.

@Ynneadwraith: Well I certainly won't claim to be a tactful person. Regardless, I do see the difference you're implying, but I do mean the second one! That is exactly what I am saying, sort of. That because there is a lack of any fluff detailing major and significant achievements of non-Imperium factions comparable to the volume of the Imperium said factions come across as pathetic and insignificant to me. This is what I am trying to say.

@Robin5t: I do think I have a different outlook from those people you mentioned though. Additionally I'm not looking for people to take my side, or start fights, only to make my point.

In my opinion the fluff as it is does cheapen all existing factions compared to the Imperium. That is definitely my view of it. However, I dislike this state of being.

EDIT: With that said I don't know if I can say much else. The difference is, unlike you and Ynneadwraith, I have no optimistic belief that 'off-screen' the non-Imperium factions are doing well and non-Imperium characters are performing feats as impressive as those of the Imperium characters. I both do not believe that and, at the same time, am not satisfied with the argument 'who knows?' as a response. If it isn't being shown and depicted in the fluff as occurring then I'm not satisfied by it. I highly doubt a Space Marine player would be satisfied if in the fluff almost every appearance of the Space Marines had them lose but, as a side note, its mentioned somewhere that they sometimes win.

I feel its an unfair double-standard to enforce that all non-Imperium factions have to accept such a status-quo. Personally.

If this has been mentioned already - I skipped a fair few pages once i got the itch to reply to some early comments

-I'm pretty sure the shadowsun's military campaign during the 3rd sphere expansion spanked the imperium, resulting with the imperials being duped into a massive counterattack to recapture a lost sector that the tau used as a decoy so that they could breeze through multiple neighboring sectors without even trying? I know that the imperium don't really bother with the tau but that's a pretty clear victory for the xenos.

Its like the equivalent of two guys breaking into your house, one goes to steal your microwave, so you go to chase him off. While you are busy fighting, the other guy was busy in your living room. Yeah, you saved your candy, but they walked off with your tv, sofas and all your dvds. Feel good? No? Good, that's because they won

While it was only a small loss for the imperium (millions of worlds and all that), it was a major win for the tau.

@hippyjr: Again, the Imperium does lose sometimes, simply not in major engagements and far less often than all the other factions combined (I counted).

However, as I've said multiple times already, the Imperium does lose a small amount of times.

As for the campaign you are mentioning, Zeist, it does not say how much territory Shadowsun captures, to my knowledge, it simply says she achieved victories somewhere.

That being said, yes, Tau aren't a good example because they're irrelevant to the setting, Orks, Eldar and such are more meaningful.

EDIT: Also, just to be clear, this isn't necessary. We know the Imperium has a small number, compared to the other factions, of minor losses. Just pointing them out doesn't change how big the imbalance is.

 Anemone wrote:
@hippyjr: Again, the Imperium does lose sometimes, simply not in major engagements and far less often than all the other factions combined (I counted).

However, as I've said multiple times already, the Imperium does lose a small amount of times.

As for the campaign you are mentioning, Zeist, it does not say how much territory Shadowsun captures, to my knowledge, it simply says she achieved victories somewhere.

That being said, yes, Tau aren't a good example because they're irrelevant to the setting, Orks, Eldar and such are more meaningful.

Ah right, I was hoping that blindly inserting my views into the conversation wouldn't bring up too many points that have already been covered!

I guess it's partly due to the imperium being on the defence all the time? They typically stand to lose something (usually a sector or key world). On the other hand, if the invading xenos are beaten off, then they don't come off any worse than they were before.

I do agree that the xenos could stand to win some more key conflicts - not just a "the imperium won and x worlds never recovered", or " the threat was killed, but x many systems felt the blow" feth that too many of the wars end in. I want an underdog race like orks or chaos to have a decisive victory over some forge world and get loads of new stuff to tinker with (not necessarily new models, would be nice though...)

@hippyjr: That's fine, nothing wrong with bringing it up.

As for the Imperium being on the defense all the time, we've already covered that that isn't necessarily true, with the Imperium having relatively recently absorbed over 200 new planets and an additional 72 Star Systems. The Imperium is both on the offensive and defensive, which is true of all factions in the game to an extent.

Also I do believe the Craftworld Eldar come off considerably worse every time they are beaten off because they cannot afford to replace the lost manpower and, every such defeat, also means that they failed to stop a future calamity from occurring, meaning they are in more peril than previously.

That being said I'm glad you agree the xenos could stand to win more key conflicts. I wouldn't mind a plastic Ork Warboss Miniature.

With that said I would like Chaos to win a few more key conflicts too. I'm hoping, however vain the hope might be, that Magnus can win in Wrath of Magnus.

Ah right, well maybe a solution to that would be to bring back the old campaigns where the results are based on actual battle reports played by the community?

That would require the codexes to have something that resembled balance though... maybe battle reports with set forces on either side/limitation to make them more fair?

Another solution to make the imperium fluff less win-heavy would be to stand on the writers fingers so they can't type properly. That way when they type out a story the where the imperium wins, all that we get is jumbled up nonsense, which we say is ork language for "and then the xenos won"

 Anemone wrote:


You're using a bland and meaningless phrase 'costs and sacrifice' to replace the fact that the Imperium never loses major wars or suffers major consequences whilst the other factions do.

The Horus Heresy.....


I think the thing is that the Imperium is so vast that there are big wars being fought and lost, but compared to the big picture they are not seen as 'major deals'. Theyve had big blows dealt, the biggest, that we know of so far, was the Heresy. There may be other big things in the future, the new Fenris Warzone book may bring a Chaos victory and we may see other enemies of the Imperium following suit. Its just a story, I think GW realise if they massively affect things then people get annoyed. No one really wants to see their 'army' wiped out of existence etc *sheds a tear for the Squats*

@hippyjr: A fun idea might be a tiny bit impractical though

@Inquisitor Kallus: The Horus Heresy was an Imperium victory.

You're also getting the wrong impression from what I'm saying. No-one is saying that a faction needs to be destroyed, I'm vehemently opposed to any faction being destroyed. However, people can lose major engagements without being destroyed; Chaos lost the Horus Heresy, but that doesn't mean Chaos Space Marines were destroyed, the Orks lost the War of the Beast, but that doesn't mean the Orks were destroyed, the Eldar lost the Death Masque battle, but that doesn't mean the Eldar are destroyed (okay...this one might).

The Imperium can be made to suffer major defeats, where its best (the likes of Horus, The Beast and Eldrad) also lose and are defeated, sent running, vast swathes of space lost and claimed by the enemy.

All that needs to be done is allow other factions to perform well in the history and narrative battles.

Let the Orks win a Sanctus Reach narrative battle, let an Eldar Craftoworld defeat a main Space Marine Chapter and win the war over a Maiden World it was fighting with a force of Ultramarines, or Dark Angels or Blood Angels. Then let enough of these happen that the victories, contributions to the plot and awesome moments are evenly distributed for all the factions, and not just predominantly the Imperium's.

If people are adverse to that change in the story then that is a pity.

 hippyjr wrote:
Ah right, well maybe a solution to that would be to bring back the old campaigns where the results are based on actual battle reports played by the community?

Not sure that would help greatly, given the prior results:

Ichar IV - Imperial (+ Eldar) victory
Armageddon - Imperial victory
Eye of Terror - Chaos Victory (note constant conspiracy theories and denialists)
Medusa V - Imperial Victory

Actually I think you will find that the Horus Heresy was a victory for the Chaos Gods. The Great Crusade and the drive to turn humanity into a secular society was stopped dead in their tracks. The Emperor was neutered and restricted to the golden toilet seat and not able to maintain a physical presence in the galaxy at large. The constant war, death, destruction and all those associated emotions feed the Chaos Gods.

Read Legion, at the end you will see the prophesised outcomes of the Heresy if the Emp won, Horus won or a stalemate was achieved.

By Imperial standards it was a win because terra wasn't destroyed, horus was killed and the traitors retreated to the eye of terror. By the Chaos God's standards, the galaxy in a state of eternal war was exactly as planned, a victory that frankly is hard to find a equal of.

Lets recap what the victories the Chaos Gods achieved:

The Primarchs were scattered to the four winds and were exposed to chaos in some for or another. Not as the big E planned.

The Great Crusade was stopped, the secular vision the emperor was hoping to implement was destroyed. Not as the Big E planned

Half the legions and their primarchs wen rogue and turned to chaos bringing civil war to the galaxy the likes that had not been seen before. Not the Big E's plan.

The siege of terra saw the homeworld get assaulted and besieged, destroying infrastructure and billions of lives. The Big E takes the risk of facing Horus and pays a heavy price for it, seeing him interred in the golden throne and unable to continue his work on the human webway. Pretty sure he didn't plan for that to happen either.

The Imperium says its an imperial victory because the Emp wasn't killed and Terra wasn't destroyed. But everything that happened was just as planned by the Chaos Gods.

So if you are intent on drinking the Imperial Propaganda Kool Aid,. then every battle has been an Imperial Victory and anyone that says different is wrong.

Ooh just remembered another battle example that you will likely say is an imperial victory, The Iron Cage. the war where the Imperial Fists got suckered into trying to kill Perty and instead got their asses handed to them. Incidentally this is where Perty ascended to daemonhood.

@Casti: Look, I'm sorry, but I'm not doing this again. The Horus Heresy was an Imperium victory. The canon calls it such, the lexicanum calls it such, the 40kwiki calls it such, 1d4chan calls it such and more besides. I am going to rather trust in the relative objective certainty of this aggregate of information then your insistence that the Imperium did not win the Horus Heresy.

Once you have managed to convince everyone on the Lexicanum, 1d4chan, 40kwiki and the writers of Warhammer 40k Rulebooks that this is not true and the Horus Heresy was a defeat for the Imperium, then I will believe you.

Yes the Iron Cage was an Imperium victory. Perturabo showed he could defeat the Imperial Fists there but the intervention of the Ultramarines prevented it from being a Chaos Victory. The result is an Imperium victory.

The only lasting ramification is that the Imperial Fists, we are told, were incapable of fighting for 19 years but, considering no territorial losses or defeats of any significance are experienced by the Imperium in that period, this is negligible. Maybe if, say, we were informed that as a result during those 19 years a whole sector was conquered by Chaos Space Marines and held, then I'd have agreed with you.

As it stands the Iron Cage was a narrow victory for the Imperium.

Oh man, the Imperium do lose quite a fair bit. Doesn't seem like it at first but theyve lost to every faction just like they've beat every faction. I mean, look at the Tau for example. They may be small but they're not insignificant. They've won against the Imperium in every campaign supplement they've had (GW had valid reasons to let them win too) and then there's Abbadon's Black Crusades. Despite what everybody says, he's won all of them so far (according to current fluff. Old fluff states he lost them all but that just made him look armless.) Not by destroying Terra but by completing all the goals he sets for himself. All the Black Crusades were ment to strengthen his Black Legion while weakening the Imperium for the lead up to his last and final 13th Black Crusade. Also, I've seen the bickering on the first page and to be fair, while Gazgkhul's Waaagh! Is the 3rd biggest Ork Waaagh in Imperial History, if the IoM's hands weren't tied with all the other xeno and chaos threats Ghazzy would be long dead, but that's the whole beauty of it...

The Imperium are the most powerful empire in the entire galaxy right now. A behemoth that can destroy anything in its path multiple times over. An empire that is so large and so powerful that is seemingly undefeatable, is on the verge of defeat. Every single border, every single frontier is a sector - wide warzones that combines into a galaxy - wide bloodbath that even the Imperium are drowning in all the blood.

The idea behind the Imperium of Man is that they can destroy anybody, but are currently occupied in countless warzones which are slowly killing off humanity. If the IoM wanted to destroy the Tau, they could, but that would leave other sectors of space ripe and undefended while if they wanted to bolster the Galactic South to hold back Hive Fleet Kraken, they'd be leaving the Eastern Fringe completely open for the Tau to take.

So yeah.

Cool, I am done.

Your inability to see anything beyond what is written in black and white just means that this argument will continue to go around in circles till the universe implodes.

To the Original Poster, read between the lines, the setting isn't black and white, its a 40000 shades of grey (and not the slaaneshi kind, well most arn't). Majority of the literature is Imperium centric, but in the relevant codicies of the Xenos and Chaos factions there are lots of examples where battles and wars have been won by those factions. If it hasn't been apparent in the now 7 pages of discussion, the online sources and the fluff section of the main rulebook is written from an Imperial perspective and is rife with their propaganda.

Take the time to find the fluff you like, whether it be canon or homebrew and find the fluff that you like for your army. Its 100% ok if you wanna be a ignorant loyalist (I have many friends that are unenlightened) as long as you find and do what makes you happy in regards to 40k.

Oh and Casti, I think the Chaos Gods' intention was to kill the Emperor as his plan was to severely loosen Chaos' grip on the material world by creating an atheistic Imperium. Ultimately, Horus failed, meaning Chaos also failed.

If you really believe Chaos won, just take a look to see who still controls the majority of the galaxy, and who has to hide in the Eye of Terror to avoid being massacred.

 Anemone wrote:
@Casti: Look, I'm sorry, but I'm not doing this again. The Horus Heresy was an Imperium victory. The canon calls it such, the lexicanum calls it such, the 40kwiki calls it such, 1d4chan calls it such and more besides. I am going to rather trust in the relative objective certainty of this aggregate of information then your insistence that the Imperium did not win the Horus Heresy.

Once you have managed to convince everyone on the Lexicanum, 1d4chan, 40kwiki and the writers of Warhammer 40k Rulebooks that this is not true and the Horus Heresy was a defeat for the Imperium, then I will believe you.

Yes the Iron Cage was an Imperium victory. Perturabo showed he could defeat the Imperial Fists there but the intervention of the Ultramarines prevented it from being a Chaos Victory. The result is an Imperium victory.

The only lasting ramification is that the Imperial Fists, we are told, were incapable of fighting for 19 years but, considering no territorial losses or defeats of any significance are experienced by the Imperium in that period, this is negligible. Maybe if, say, we were informed that as a result during those 19 years a whole sector was conquered by Chaos Space Marines and held, then I'd have agreed with you.

As it stands the Iron Cage was a narrow victory for the Imperium.

It was an imperium victory in the sense that it survived, yes.

Losing half your worlds, over half your space marines and several of your greatest generals and your Emperor and most of the works that he created...
I'm sorry, but that's pretty hollow.

That's what he's saying.

What I'm saying it, yes the writers seem to make it look like the Imperium never loses. But the Imperium is losing. It's stated in the most recent rulebook that the crusades that the Imperium has launched over the past 1000 or so years have drained its manpower and left it spread thin. We are now beginning to see the Imperium pay the price for it in the closing years of the 41st millennium.

@123ply: So now we're back at arguing that the Imperium doesn't overwhelmingly win all major engagements? *sigh* I just wish which few consensus points we reached could at least remain.

Okay, first of all, the Imperium does not lose 'quite a fair bit' compared to every faction. I have counted, the Imperium loses less than any other faction. They have a positive win-loss ratio in their favour with every other faction.

Additionally the Imperium has never lost a single major engagement.

If we're going to look at the Tau then 2 things must be noted;

1) The Imperium still has a win-loss ratio in their favour when compared to the Tau

2) The Tau are completely irrelevant and so pointless to this discussion.

The Tau have also not won in every campaign supplement. In the Armageddon Damocles supplement their was a strict parity of 1 win to 1 loss on both sides, thus a tie.

In the Warzone Damocles Narrative Supplements the Tau won in Kauyon but, as explicitly stated by the book itself, lost in Mont'ka. Indeed Mont'ka even described the Tau defeat in it as 'enormous' stating 'the Tau had never suffered such a complete defeat before'.

With that said, again, the Tau are irrelevant.

I'm not going to discuss the Black Crusades again, I feel people more competent to do so already have in this thread and don't see anything in what you provide which sways me from those positions.

Every single border is not a warzone, we know areas of space not at war exist.

I'm not sure exactly what you're stating in relation to the point though. That there shouldn't be more efforts to give factions other than the Imperium victories of significance and narrative importance in the fluff?

@Casti: Its fine, I think you're right to say 'I'm done', personally I should follow your example I sincerely believe.

I am sorry that my way of looking at this is upsetting for you, really, I'd love it if the fluff of the setting did actually paint the forces of Chaos as truly dangerous and they had numerous feats and achievements of lasting import to their name. I just don't see very many at all compared to those of the Imperium.

I still do like Chaos a lot though, I just want it to have better representation in fluff along with the other non-Imperium forces.

@Lusall: So then the Imperium won. Cool.

Also did the Imperium lose over half their worlds? I did not know this. As for losing great generals, that happens. The Orks in the Beast Waaagh!!! lost all 6 their strongest and best leaders we have ever seen.

If the Imperium is losing show me where. Show me these numerous instances of its borders shrinking, of its primary armies losing in battle. If it is a failing Empire these should exist. Provide me with these examples and I will find your position more convincing. And, again, doesn't the latest rulebook state the Imperium is larger now than it has ever been?

Wow.. Casti was right. You take everything you read to face value. I'm a self proclaimed Imperium fan boy, but really? The IoM lost In Montka but because the very last page states the Tau lost you now think they really did lose despite winning basically through the whole book. The Imperium ' goal was to reclaim agrellan. Did they reclaim it? No, they went into a full retreat.

It's stated the Tau lost because that last page was pretty clearly from their point of view. They failed to protect Aun'va or whatever but they still won the battle for Agrellan

Actually the Imperium goal was to punish the Tau for taking Agrellan. Not necessarily retake it. They simply wished to deliver what they felt was a crippling blow at Agrellan in order to teach the Tau a lesson.

Clearly, and unsurprisingly, they consider their achievement of the destruction of much of the hardware on Agrellan, assassination of the Tau Supreme Leader, sealing off of the Tau Empire behind a fire wall and stalling of the Third Sphere Expansion a win. Canon also states that they won.

So yes, that's the position.

Also, again, the Tau are irrelevant. I see no point quibbling over them.

EDIT: My personal position on Mont'ka would be to say neither faction won decisively in any capacity.

And the Tau won In Taros, Kayoun and Montka. Even in the Shadow Captain Solaq intro.And What's this Armageddon Damocles supplement you're speaking of?

When they said "punish the tau" it was intended they were supposed to take back Agrellan. If you can recall, the General in charge of the crusade was executed because he wasn't able to take back Agrellan In the alloted period of time and the new general ordered a full scale retreat to bolster other Imperial warzones. As far as I know, both the Lexicanum and Wiki state the Tau won that conflict

Okay, just to be clear, do you want to turn this into a number off? You must let me know because if you want me to just list the Imperium victories over the Tau, which seems to be what you're doing, I will do so.

As for what the Armageddon Damocles supplement was; it was the supplement concerning the first battle of Aggrellan and the battle of Voltoris.