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Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:

wrong Vietnam was separated into North Vietnam and South Vietnam, ask the South Vietnamese they will tell you they lost, the Russians yes they had victorious battles when they retook their land but it was not a win till they took Germany.

As too the Korean War by your standards South Korea and the Americans won since North Korea took land from South Korea but then lost it back to them and yet neither side claimed victory, so it just proves my point.

Furthermore you want to talk lost planets of the Imperium, lets talk the Eye of Terror a densely packed Star clusters with hundreds of Human occupied planets and then some that the Imperium lost to Chaos.

your arguments are failing.

Korea was a draw because the South Koreans repelled a North Korea invasion, and then the North Koreans repelled a South Korean invasion. In the case with the Imperials, the enemy nevers repels an invasion, hence, Imperials win.

actually the North Koreans took huge swaths of land from South Korea which then South Korea took back with the Americans but according to Anemone that would be a victory for South Korea and the Americans since they took back land they had lost.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:

wrong Vietnam was separated into North Vietnam and South Vietnam, ask the South Vietnamese they will tell you they lost, the Russians yes they had victorious battles when they retook their land but it was not a win till they took Germany.

As too the Korean War by your standards South Korea and the Americans won since North Korea took land from South Korea but then lost it back to them and yet neither side claimed victory, so it just proves my point.

Furthermore you want to talk lost planets of the Imperium, lets talk the Eye of Terror a densely packed Star clusters with hundreds of Human occupied planets and then some that the Imperium lost to Chaos.

your arguments are failing.

Korea was a draw because the South Koreans repelled a North Korea invasion, and then the North Koreans repelled a South Korean invasion. In the case with the Imperials, the enemy nevers repels an invasion, hence, Imperials win.

Are you serious? The Imperium controls all the land. It's the guy with 2 armies a territory and most territories in classic Risk- but everyone else has 1 territory and 40 armies on it. This is not a winning position!

Two chapters of Marines were fed to Skulltaker to seal a pact. The Invaders were set up by the Eldar in response to their destroying Idharae.

It's like saying the guy lying unconscious from a complete knockout in a boxing match won because he landed more punches than the guy that laid him out.

BrainFireBob wrote:


How do you know if the Eldar do or don't have more psykers than humans that can destroy titans? We've seen everything in the 40k universe?

Also, why do they need to? Michael Phelps is an outstanding swimmer and a superb athlete; doesn't mean he's the world's best boxer. Or that Usain Bolt wouldn't get thrashed in a MMA fight.

The Eldar codex says they are creating Ynnead. That's winning. You're deciding it's not winning enough. Whichever side wins the war caused by Kryptmann's Gambit can easily dominate the galaxy- this is explicit in the fluff about Kryptmann's gambit, and the greatest Warboss since the Beast is collecting a truly massive WAAGH. The Tau have had their expansion TEMPORARILY stopped and lost a single leader. I'd still say the Tau are winning.

They may not win *enough* for you; don't make the mistake of thinking it's the same. Anything other than the other factions shrinking isn't really a win for the Imperium; leaving things as they are is a stalemate, because the Imperium lacks what it needs to replace many of its resources.

We never see them in fluff or get reference to them.

Being the psychic race is the Eldar's thing. Having the humans be better than them at that, when they're already the best at most things, is insane. It's more like if Usain Bolt got outran.

Ynnead is a last ditch hope that they're not even sure will happen, and could easily end up failing. Being in the planning stages of winning is not winning. In the meanwhile, many of their souls are being consumed by Slaanesh.

Again, the Orks aren't winning battles. That's not winning. When this force actually does something against the Imperium and conquers some worlds, than it'll be winning.

The Tau lost their supreme leader, not just a leader. That's like if the Imperium lost the Emperor, and their expansion has been stopped. So no, that's not winning either.

They're not winning nearly as much as the Imperium are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainFireBob wrote:


Are you serious? The Imperium controls all the land. It's the guy with 2 armies a territory and most territories in classic Risk- but everyone else has 1 territory and 40 armies on it. This is not a winning position!

Two chapters of Marines were fed to Skulltaker to seal a pact. The Invaders were set up by the Eldar in response to their destroying Idharae.

It's like saying the guy lying unconscious from a complete knockout in a boxing match won because he landed more punches than the guy that laid him out.

The Imperium has massive forces, while factions like the Eldar and even more so the Tau are puny in comparison. That comparison is nonsensical.

problem with the Eldar is they may have the best Psykers, but on the other hand they are losing the numbers race, so while say the Imperium may have a whole bunch of psykers but none as powerful as say the Eldar, it doesn't mean they are weaker either since the Eldar don't have the numbers. 10 mediocre fighters can take out one great fighter if they gang up on him.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

BrainFireBob wrote:


Are you serious? The Imperium controls all the land. It's the guy with 2 armies a territory and most territories in classic Risk- but everyone else has 1 territory and 40 armies on it. This is not a winning position!

Two chapters of Marines were fed to Skulltaker to seal a pact. The Invaders were set up by the Eldar in response to their destroying Idharae.

It's like saying the guy lying unconscious from a complete knockout in a boxing match won because he landed more punches than the guy that laid him out.

The Imperium has massive forces, while factions like the Eldar and even more so the Tau are puny in comparison. That comparison is nonsensical.

the same can be said of the Orks, all fluff says they outnumber humans, the only reason they do not control the galaxy is they fight amongst themselves too much.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:


We never see them in fluff or get reference to them.

Being the psychic race is the Eldar's thing. Having the humans be better than them at that, when they're already the best at most things, is insane. It's more like if Usain Bolt got outran.

Ynnead is a last ditch hope that they're not even sure will happen, and could easily end up failing. Being in the planning stages of winning is not winning. In the meanwhile, many of their souls are being consumed by Slaanesh.

Again, the Orks aren't winning battles. That's not winning. When this force actually does something against the Imperium and conquers some worlds, than it'll be winning.

The Tau lost their supreme leader, not just a leader. That's like if the Imperium lost the Emperor, and their expansion has been stopped. So no, that's not winning either.

They're not winning nearly as much as the Imperium are.

What the Imperium's doing isn't really winning. And you are saying the Tau's homeworld is being over-run by daemons out of a broken warp gate, while all of their ships are lost in the warp, and their instellar communication was all just possessed by daemons they're no longer protected from?

Oh, wait, it's nothing like that. All of their tech still works, they have other leaders, they can still communicate and travel in the Warp, and they're still expansionist. Especially not relatable to the Emperor because he's kind of sealed in a bubble of not-time and the High Lords are running everything.

And the Orks just get tougher, stronger, bigger, and more dangerous the more they fight. The Orks are winning whenever they're not cleanly swept from a planet- they're a designed weapon species. It's literally how they're supposed to work.

And why do you think the humans are the best psychics? In the fluff, which is human-centric, we see powerful human psykers. We don't see Eldar psykers doing the same things- but omniscient narrator voice tells us the Eldar are more psychic, so that's more a sampling problem.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

BrainFireBob wrote:


How do you know if the Eldar do or don't have more psykers than humans that can destroy titans? We've seen everything in the 40k universe?

Also, why do they need to? Michael Phelps is an outstanding swimmer and a superb athlete; doesn't mean he's the world's best boxer. Or that Usain Bolt wouldn't get thrashed in a MMA fight.

The Eldar codex says they are creating Ynnead. That's winning. You're deciding it's not winning enough. Whichever side wins the war caused by Kryptmann's Gambit can easily dominate the galaxy- this is explicit in the fluff about Kryptmann's gambit, and the greatest Warboss since the Beast is collecting a truly massive WAAGH. The Tau have had their expansion TEMPORARILY stopped and lost a single leader. I'd still say the Tau are winning.

They may not win *enough* for you; don't make the mistake of thinking it's the same. Anything other than the other factions shrinking isn't really a win for the Imperium; leaving things as they are is a stalemate, because the Imperium lacks what it needs to replace many of its resources.

We never see them in fluff or get reference to them.

Being the psychic race is the Eldar's thing. Having the humans be better than them at that, when they're already the best at most things, is insane. It's more like if Usain Bolt got outran.

Here where you are mistaken it's not insane that Usain Bolt got outran, when you take into account he injured himself by doing foolish things, so now he's struggling to win a race with crutches because he have no other options until he can fully recover, or he can ignore his safety and well being and attempt a last try risking to forever be crippled.

BrainFireBob wrote:


Are you serious? The Imperium controls all the land. It's the guy with 2 armies a territory and most territories in classic Risk- but everyone else has 1 territory and 40 armies on it. This is not a winning position!

Two chapters of Marines were fed to Skulltaker to seal a pact. The Invaders were set up by the Eldar in response to their destroying Idharae.

It's like saying the guy lying unconscious from a complete knockout in a boxing match won because he landed more punches than the guy that laid him out.

The Imperium has massive forces, while factions like the Eldar and even more so the Tau are puny in comparison. That comparison is nonsensical.

The Imperium can't get its act together, and local forces are frequently what's available to respond to problems.

This returns to my very first post in this thread: If you want the Imperium to have a loss that *hurts*, the Imperium's a rigid structure that can't really survive blows like that. It really is the collapse of the setting- which is the Age of the Imperium. The Imperium's victories are all Pyrrhic in this age; that's a long, slow way to lose.

BrainFireBob: You think that's painful.

I have no idea why you brought up a tautology which has no application to this discussion. Strange.

What is a loss? Simple. Let Logan and the Space Wolves land on Sanctus Reach, get beat, lose, flee and Orks control the world and beat a major narrative army in a major narrative event.

Wasteful...yes because the Eldar win so many times I'm sure they definitely couldn't use that ability, sure it'd never come in handy. Look Eldar Psykers clearly can't cut Titans in half. That's a fact. They never do. Also the Imperium loses Titans all the time over the course of its 8000 year existence, it doesn't actually lead to anything so this is just more going 'but it was Pyrrhic' and acting as if that counts for anything when the Imperium can absorb Pyrrhic victories for 8000 years with no appreciable loss of territory.

Actually, in Pandorax, Abaddon didn't get what he wanted. This is explicitly stated in Traitor's Hate.

Also whether or not the Daemon Cage will be unleashed has to still be determined, the Grey Knights are on their way after all, so calling it a Chaos Victory seems enormously presumptuous.

Gryphone IV, yes, is an actual major Imperium loss. I have no issues with that.

Also, uh, yes the Imperium can afford to win the way it has been. Its been doing so for 8000+ years. Clearly it can afford it.

Said new god's birth was just aborted and the Craftworlds may be without power.

Orks have gathered in a galaxy-wide Waaagh!!! far greater than Ghazghkull's before and they still lost. They're not winning, they're in a stalemate.

No, all the space of the Tau Empire was not previously Imperial Space, that's literally just incorrect. They only encounter Imperial Worlds when they cross the Damocles Gulf during the Second Sphere of Expansion triggering the first Damocles Crusade.

Also the Raven Guard aren't gutted. Within Mont'ka we are told the Raven Guard perceive the entire fight as unimportant to them at all and don't care.

Chaos isn't winning, its also just fighting.

The Imperium does gain ground. As displayed previously it recently acquired over 72 star-systems and over 200 planets in addition. Its gaining quite a lot of ground actually.

I am familiar with a Pyrrhic victory, yes, and the ability to endure Pyrrhic victories for 8000+ years without collapsing or shrinking considerably in size literally means those are not Pyrrhic victories.

Over-sampled or not it is the only data we have. What, do you want me to just make stuff up?

@Sgt_Smudge: Source for what? Them being Terran Shamans? I'm just inquiring why Terran Shamans from long before humanity approaches its psychic awakening would be powerful. What source do you want?

No amount of Eldar combined ever do anything to match the Emperor either. I'd say its probably likely the Emperor's more powerful, psychically, than the entire Eldar species *shrug*

Well to be fair if you want to go by strict objectivity then we should compare their psychic stats in crunch since no canon actually has ever confirmed an explicit power rating. Since there is no explicit canon power rating I assumed a gauge of people's opinions concerning their respective psychic feats is our best bet, but if you only want to use canon objective indicators then I guess we can't say anything on the matter.

Okay, so Eldrad got the 2nd War for Armageddon right, fine, but do you want me to list every time a Seer has been outsmarted and defeated? I am seriously asking because I don't know if you're disputing or not.

Also I totally disagree that the Imperium suffering a major defeat would automatically lead to its collapse.

Also I'm confused about your statement concerning Pandorax: you do realize that in Traitor's Hate it is stated, by the Chaos faction, that Abaddon did not achieve what he was looking for on Pandorax.

Ghazghkull is without military victories against the Imperium. He has one military victory against the Imperium, Golgotha, and none others. There's a reason his 1d4chan article makes fun of him for being really weak and falling flat all the time. Also do you not know Piscina's fluff? Ghazghkull's army lost, he withdrew cause he couldn't beat the Dark Angels. Ghazghkull's never managed to militarily defeat any Space Marine force.

Also Ghazghkull and Eldrad simply do not have as many achievement as Space Marine Characters. That's canon. If you want we can compare the feats they have listed to them, there is a lot of data about that.

My reasoning for wanting to change it is because the Imperium loses very little, and nothing major, compared to the other factions. Not that they never lose.

@Asterious: You...you don't know that Vietnam was a kingdom before being divided do you? You think their history begins with them separated into a North and a South?

Were the planets in the Eye of Terror under the Imperium's control? How many were? Could you give sources like I provided with the Crusades? Cause if you can't I can't really accept that.

Also I do like how you just put 'your arguments are failing' at the end. I mean imagine how easy arguments would be if we could all just say 'you're wrong' to each other and let that be that.

@Lord Perversor: Isn't that just one Ork providing his opinion?

BrainFireBob wrote:

What the Imperium's doing isn't really winning. And you are saying the Tau's homeworld is being over-run by daemons out of a broken warp gate, while all of their ships are lost in the warp, and their instellar communication was all just possessed by daemons they're no longer protected from?

Oh, wait, it's nothing like that. All of their tech still works, they have other leaders, they can still communicate and travel in the Warp, and they're still expansionist. Especially not relatable to the Emperor because he's kind of sealed in a bubble of not-time and the High Lords are running everything.

And the Orks just get tougher, stronger, bigger, and more dangerous the more they fight. The Orks are winning whenever they're not cleanly swept from a planet- they're a designed weapon species. It's literally how they're supposed to work.

And why do you think the humans are the best psychics? In the fluff, which is human-centric, we see powerful human psykers. We don't see Eldar psykers doing the same things- but omniscient narrator voice tells us the Eldar are more psychic, so that's more a sampling problem.

Fine, the Emperor exaggeration was a bit over done, but the Tau still lost the most important member of their entire faction, while having their advance halted. That's not winning.

No, Orks fighting and failing to win is not winning. They were swept off Armageddon once before, and now they can't even take it. So no, if they're growing more powerful but still failing to take over anything, they get nothing.

That's exactly the issue. Sure, there could hypothetically be more powerful Eldar psykers than we're seeing with humans, but we're not seeing them. We're not seeing any of this. So, in regards to fluff, the initial question stands. Why would you get interested in a non-imperial faction when all they do in fluff is lose, and humanity is better than them at nearly everything?

@BrainFireBob: Uh...Terra isn't being overrun by Daemons. Said Daemons are held at bay. What fluff are you reading?

Also...how are all their ships lost in the Warp when a massive fleet just coordinated a swift entry into the Fenris Warzone?

Seriously what fluff are you reading?

Also you think the Tau travel through the Warp?! And that Orks are getting tougher?! You realize the Orks are literally far weaker than they've been. The Beast Waaagh!!!, several thousand years ago, had far stronger and tougher Orks, and the Eldar have already explained that even the Beast was a far cry from what the Orks used to be. Orks have been getting weaker.

Seriously what fluff are you reading?

Then the old 'it could be happening off-screen' argument. So, by this logic, you totally agree sapient cheese wheels are running the entire galaxy off screen. We just don't see them because the story is human-centric.

Honestly I'm not going to respond to this 'no it's off-screen' line anymore since its pointless. That line of reasoning makes discussion absolutely useless since it gives everyone carte blanche to state anything as canon 'off-screen'

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterious: You...you don't know that Vietnam was a kingdom before being divided do you? You think their history begins with them separated into a North and a South?

Were the planets in the Eye of Terror under the Imperium's control? How many were? Could you give sources like I provided with the Crusades? Cause if you can't I can't really accept that.

Also I do like how you just put 'your arguments are failing' at the end. I mean imagine how easy arguments would be if we could all just say 'you're wrong' to each other and let that be that.

go read the Eye of terror codex and the other codexes which describe the countless Imperial worlds lost when the Eye of Terror was formed.

yes Vietnam was a kingdom before, but not when the Vietnam war broke out with the US, in fact there wars between North and South long before the Americans showed up, ask the French about it.

But you said so long as the land was held at a point by the nation reclaiming it doesn't count.

Well the Nguyen Dynasty used to hold the land so reclaiming it, by your logic, doesn't count.

EDIT: So you can't provide sources? Say a source which states 72 star-systems were conquered by Chaos

EDIT 2: Besides Solar-powered_chainsword is right, none of this changes OP's central issue; that all the fluff provides no reason to get invested in non-Imperium factions. The best you can offer for non-Imperium factions is short background blurbs which may or may not be true, we'll never know cause it doesn't get shown.

Anyway I have to sleep now so I'll only be able to respond tomorrow.

EDIT 3: Wait a minute...Asterios when the Eye of Terror was formed there was no Imperium. What are you talking about?

Asterios wrote:


go read the Eye of terror codex and the other codexes which describe the countless Imperial worlds lost when the Eye of Terror was formed.

yes Vietnam was a kingdom before, but not when the Vietnam war broke out with the US, in fact there wars between North and South long before the Americans showed up, ask the French about it.

If you're going to go back that far, look at the vast amount of territory taken during the Great Crusade.

 Anemone wrote:
But you said so long as the land was held at a point by the nation reclaiming it doesn't count.

Well the Nguyen Dynasty used to hold the land so reclaiming it, by your logic, doesn't count.

EDIT: So you can't provide sources? Say a source which states 72 star-systems were conquered by Chaos

oh I could but I'm not your errend boy, anyone with half a mind even knows that the Imperium of man lost hundreds of worlds from the Age of Technology to the Eye of Terror, not too mention the assorted Warp Rifts that happened during the Horus Herasy, but that is nothing compared to what the Eldar lost to it.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


go read the Eye of terror codex and the other codexes which describe the countless Imperial worlds lost when the Eye of Terror was formed.

yes Vietnam was a kingdom before, but not when the Vietnam war broke out with the US, in fact there wars between North and South long before the Americans showed up, ask the French about it.

If you're going to go back that far, look at the vast amount of territory taken during the Great Crusade.

in game or real life? in game, they were just getting back planets that humans occupied.

But the Imperium of man didn't exist till after the Dark Age of Technology?

What are you talking about?

EDIT: Also, apparently, I only have half a mind now. Weird. I'd have thought that would mean I'm dead.

EDIT 2: Uh...they also wiped out worlds which humanity had never inhabited and conquered those too. They didn't just reclaim worlds lost by the prior hegemon.

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
But you said so long as the land was held at a point by the nation reclaiming it doesn't count.

Well the Nguyen Dynasty used to hold the land so reclaiming it, by your logic, doesn't count.

EDIT: So you can't provide sources? Say a source which states 72 star-systems were conquered by Chaos

oh I could but I'm not your errend boy, anyone with half a mind even knows that the Imperium of man lost hundreds of worlds from the Age of Technology to the Eye of Terror, not too mention the assorted Warp Rifts that happened during the Horus Herasy, but that is nothing compared to what the Eldar lost to it.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


go read the Eye of terror codex and the other codexes which describe the countless Imperial worlds lost when the Eye of Terror was formed.

yes Vietnam was a kingdom before, but not when the Vietnam war broke out with the US, in fact there wars between North and South long before the Americans showed up, ask the French about it.

If you're going to go back that far, look at the vast amount of territory taken during the Great Crusade.

in game or real life? in game, they were just getting back planets that humans occupied.

Humans and the Imperium are two different things. The Imperium had never had any of those planets. Speaking of, seeing as the Eye of Terror was formed before the Imperium, they didn't lose a single planet from that, either.

 Anemone wrote:
But the Imperium of man didn't exist till after the Dark Age of Technology?

What are you talking about?

EDIT: Also, apparently, I only have half a mind now. Weird. I'd have thought that would mean I'm dead.

the Imperium of man is all of humanity thru the age of technology and age of strife and the Horus Heresy to the 41st. Millenium.

No it isn't.

It...it really isn't. You realize the Imperium of man just comes about when the Emperor takes over?

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
But you said so long as the land was held at a point by the nation reclaiming it doesn't count.

Well the Nguyen Dynasty used to hold the land so reclaiming it, by your logic, doesn't count.

EDIT: So you can't provide sources? Say a source which states 72 star-systems were conquered by Chaos

oh I could but I'm not your errend boy, anyone with half a mind even knows that the Imperium of man lost hundreds of worlds from the Age of Technology to the Eye of Terror, not too mention the assorted Warp Rifts that happened during the Horus Herasy, but that is nothing compared to what the Eldar lost to it.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


go read the Eye of terror codex and the other codexes which describe the countless Imperial worlds lost when the Eye of Terror was formed.

yes Vietnam was a kingdom before, but not when the Vietnam war broke out with the US, in fact there wars between North and South long before the Americans showed up, ask the French about it.

If you're going to go back that far, look at the vast amount of territory taken during the Great Crusade.

in game or real life? in game, they were just getting back planets that humans occupied.

Humans and the Imperium are two different things. The Imperium had never had any of those planets.

thats why all the books about the Crusade claim how they were getting back and finding the lost planets of man ?

Asterios wrote:

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
But you said so long as the land was held at a point by the nation reclaiming it doesn't count.

Well the Nguyen Dynasty used to hold the land so reclaiming it, by your logic, doesn't count.

EDIT: So you can't provide sources? Say a source which states 72 star-systems were conquered by Chaos

oh I could but I'm not your errend boy, anyone with half a mind even knows that the Imperium of man lost hundreds of worlds from the Age of Technology to the Eye of Terror, not too mention the assorted Warp Rifts that happened during the Horus Herasy, but that is nothing compared to what the Eldar lost to it.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


go read the Eye of terror codex and the other codexes which describe the countless Imperial worlds lost when the Eye of Terror was formed.

yes Vietnam was a kingdom before, but not when the Vietnam war broke out with the US, in fact there wars between North and South long before the Americans showed up, ask the French about it.

If you're going to go back that far, look at the vast amount of territory taken during the Great Crusade.

in game or real life? in game, they were just getting back planets that humans occupied.

Humans and the Imperium are two different things. The Imperium had never had any of those planets.

thats why all the books about the Crusade claim how they were getting back and finding the lost planets of man ?

Yes, man once held many of the worlds conquered during the Great Crusade. But the Imperium didn't. The Imperium is different to man. The Imperium was founded by the Emperor during the Unification wars, anything before that wasn't the Imperium.

Yeah, a primary motivation of theirs was to find worlds inhabited by humans. But those worlds had been settled by the humans of Dark Age of Technology, not by the Imperium which only came into existence post-Unification Wars.

Besides the Imperium didn't only attack worlds which used to be human. They also attacked and conquered numerous alien worlds and settled them. Hence why they targeted Murder, Ullanor or, as the latest rulebook says, ground over dozens of alien civilizations and built over their ruins.

 Anemone wrote:
No it isn't.

It...it really isn't. You realize the Imperium of man just comes about when the Emperor takes over?

you do realize the Emperor is millenia older then the 30th. millenia?

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
No it isn't.

It...it really isn't. You realize the Imperium of man just comes about when the Emperor takes over?

you do realize the Emperor is millenia older then the 30th. millenia?

Yes, but the Emperor didn't take over until the Unification Wars, when the Imperium was founded.

Okay...Asterios, not to be mean, but do you really not know that the Imperium only starts post-Unification Wars?

There's nothing wrong with it, I just want to make sure if you really don't know that or are just avoiding it,

But yes the Emperor is older than that. His age has no bearing on when he founds the Imperium though, which he only does post-Unification Wars.

 Anemone wrote:
BrainFireBob: You think that's painful.

I have no idea why you brought up a tautology which has no application to this discussion. Strange.

Because you've qualified that anything the Imperium retakes negates the loss, or any loss that "wasn't big enough"- as per the below.

What is a loss? Simple. Let Logan and the Space Wolves land on Sanctus Reach, get beat, lose, flee and Orks control the world and beat a major narrative army in a major narrative event.

And if the Imperium uses Exterminatus or a later crusade lands and re-takes it? That's how the Imperium operates.

Wasteful...yes because the Eldar win so many times I'm sure they definitely couldn't use that ability, sure it'd never come in handy. Look Eldar Psykers clearly can't cut Titans in half. That's a fact.

Prove it. You can't, because all you can say is "we haven't seen it yet." That's a very different thing.

They never do. Also the Imperium loses Titans all the time over the course of its 8000 year existence, it doesn't actually lead to anything so this is just more going 'but it was Pyrrhic' and acting as if that counts for anything when the Imperium can absorb Pyrrhic victories for 8000 years with no appreciable loss of territory.

The Imperium is running out. Early on, it was so dominant it didn't matter- now it does.

Actually, in Pandorax, Abaddon didn't get what he wanted. This is explicitly stated in Traitor's Hate.

He got the psyker he wanted and sealed his pact with Fulgrim. That was the primary goal. That was achieved.

Also whether or not the Daemon Cage will be unleashed has to still be determined, the Grey Knights are on their way after all, so calling it a Chaos Victory seems enormously presumptuous.

It's explicit that the fracturing is inevitable, because the only mechanicum adept with the expertise to fix it was killed.

Gryphone IV, yes, is an actual major Imperium loss. I have no issues with that.

So were the loss of the Sabbat worlds, or when an entire quarter of the Imperium fell into recidivist cult uprisings/lost communication, or when the Imperium fell into major civil war . . . just because most of these were in the "past" of the setting doesn't wipe them. The entire Badab War was a major Imperial loss- they lost a genius commander, nearly the entirety of multiple Marine chapters, and broke the tight cordon around the Maelstrom Huron had set up, in addition to adding Huron to the forces of Chaos. Prospero Mark II.

Also, uh, yes the Imperium can afford to win the way it has been. Its been doing so for 8000+ years. Clearly it can afford it.

It *could*. Too many times into the breach, too much lost technology.

Said new god's birth was just aborted and the Craftworlds may be without power.

If this is the new Death Masque fluff, whoever wrote it should be fired. That's moronic. The Craftworlds draw their power from the Warp via wraithbone.

Orks have gathered in a galaxy-wide Waaagh!!! far greater than Ghazghkull's before and they still lost. They're not winning, they're in a stalemate.

Back when the Imperium was at the peak of its power, having recovered from the Heresy. The Beast was in 32000; this is 40,000

No, all the space of the Tau Empire was not previously Imperial Space, that's literally just incorrect. They only encounter Imperial Worlds when they cross the Damocles Gulf during the Second Sphere of Expansion triggering the first Damocles Crusade.

Factually and completely inaccurate. This was a sector of imperial space where the Mechanicum discovered a new species. They dispatched a cleansing force caught in the same warpstorm that isolated Tau'a for a millennia. This is from the original Tau codex. This was imperial space slated for terraforming; something protected the Tau until they could face the Imperium.

Also the Raven Guard aren't gutted. Within Mont'ka we are told the Raven Guard perceive the entire fight as unimportant to them at all and don't care.

We're also told how difficult it is for them to replace dead Marines and that they lost their Chapter Master. The Guard are fatalists, that's not the same thing.

Chaos isn't winning, its also just fighting.

Chaos is actually attempting to win-win for the first time in 10,000 years- because Abaddon has decided he's ready.

The Imperium does gain ground. As displayed previously it recently acquired over 72 star-systems and over 200 planets in addition. Its gaining quite a lot of ground actually.

Blasted star systems that it can't recolonize to high technology. It also loses all the time- count up every Exterminatus referred to. The Sabbat Crusade was to reclaim worlds that had been lost. It gains and loses constantly. That's mentioned endlessly in the fluff.

I am familiar with a Pyrrhic victory, yes, and the ability to endure Pyrrhic victories for 8000+ years without collapsing or shrinking considerably in size literally means those are not Pyrrhic victories.

It means the original system was robust. The Throne is failing, Too many systems can't be replaced. They can't even manufacture dreads predictably anymore. You're also assuming the entire 8k was pyrrhic- all modern victories are pyrrhic. This is again shifting conditions. Heresy-millennium 32, the Imperium was comfortably winning.

Over-sampled or not it is the only data we have. What, do you want me to just make stuff up?

Stop pretending there is anything that qualifies as data. As an engineer, I find it incredibly offensive. It's made up material in a fantastic setting that's internally inconsistent. From a pure data standpoint, it's over-sampled. If it was consistent and regular, sure, but it's not.

@Sgt_Smudge: Source for what? Them being Terran Shamans? I'm just inquiring why Terran Shamans from long before humanity approaches its psychic awakening would be powerful. What source do you want?

It's the numbers. 1+1+1 is more than 1.

No amount of Eldar combined ever do anything to match the Emperor either. I'd say its probably likely the Emperor's more powerful, psychically, than the entire Eldar species *shrug*

Based on nothing. The Eldar didn't choose to do what the Emperor did, on purpose, until their species was nearly gone. (Ynnead is effectively an Eldar Emperor).

Well to be fair if you want to go by strict objectivity then we should compare their psychic stats in crunch since no canon actually has ever confirmed an explicit power rating.

Correct

Since there is no explicit canon power rating I assumed a gauge of people's opinions concerning their respective psychic feats is our best bet,

Incorrect. Opinion is not data. The plural of anecdote is not data.

but if you only want to use canon objective indicators then I guess we can't say anything on the matter.

THIS is good data-thinking.

Okay, so Eldrad got the 2nd War for Armageddon right, fine, but do you want me to list every time a Seer has been outsmarted and defeated? I am seriously asking because I don't know if you're disputing or not.

Reading the future as the Eldar do is essentially gambling. They pick based on probabilities, not certainties.

Also I totally disagree that the Imperium suffering a major defeat would automatically lead to its collapse.

I totally disagree that we've seen anything that indicates the Eldar lack the psychic power of a Malcador or Magnus. See the problem?

Also I'm confused about your statement concerning Pandorax: you do realize that in Traitor's Hate it is stated, by the Chaos faction, that Abaddon did not achieve what he was looking for on Pandorax.

Didn't get the cache, still sealed his pact with Fulgrim.

Ghazghkull is without military victories against the Imperium. He has one military victory against the Imperium, Golgotha, and none others. There's a reason his 1d4chan article makes fun of him for being really weak and falling flat all the time. Also do you not know Piscina's fluff? Ghazghkull's army lost, he withdrew cause he couldn't beat the Dark Angels. Ghazghkull's never managed to militarily defeat any Space Marine force.

Ghazgkull was testing the telly-porta at Piscina, it was the other Ork's warband. The Templars were at Golgotha, that's from the old Armageddon codex.

Also Ghazghkull and Eldrad simply do not have as many achievement as Space Marine Characters. That's canon.

Incorrect. They don't have as many *listed* achievements. Canon's not complete yet.

If you want we can compare the feats they have listed to them, there is a lot of data about that.

Not a complete set, invalid sample size.

My reasoning for wanting to change it is because the Imperium loses very little, and nothing major, compared to the other factions.

A) Your opinion. B) Gryphonne IV is a huge deal. So's losing half the Marine Legions, the Primarchs, the Emperor himself





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anemone wrote:
@BrainFireBob: Uh...Terra isn't being overrun by Daemons. Said Daemons are held at bay. What fluff are you reading?

The Golden Throne is holding shut a webway portal that is compromised. That's what the Emperor is doing through most of the Heresy. That's why he only personally could do something when Malcador took his place. That's part of why he went back on- there's more than one reference to this.

Also...how are all their ships lost in the Warp when a massive fleet just coordinated a swift entry into the Fenris Warzone?

No Emperor, no Astronomicon.

Seriously what fluff are you reading?

How do you not know that no Astronomicon, no human Warp navigation!? That's foundational!

Also you think the Tau travel through the Warp?! And that Orks are getting tougher?! You realize the Orks are literally far weaker than they've been. The Beast Waaagh!!!, several thousand years ago, had far stronger and tougher Orks, and the Eldar have already explained that even the Beast was a far cry from what the Orks used to be. Orks have been getting weaker.

Yeah, there's more out there, Anemone.

The Tau skim the Warp. They can't really enter it for fast travel. Orks get tougher the longer they fight- they grow and become more dangerous. The more opposition, the more extreme Xenoforms that appear- hence Black Orks and the fact Kryptmann's Gambit has resulted in Orkoid life forms of a size never before seen.

Seriously what fluff are you reading?

Apparently more than you.

Then the old 'it could be happening off-screen' argument. So, by this logic, you totally agree sapient cheese wheels are running the entire galaxy off screen. We just don't see them because the story is human-centric.

That's pretty much as valid as saying we're seeing 100% of what there is to see.

Honestly I'm not going to respond to this 'no it's off-screen' line anymore since its pointless. That line of reasoning makes discussion absolutely useless since it gives everyone carte blanche to state anything as canon 'off-screen'

No more pointless than proclaiming the Codex writers and BL authors are deliberately and conscientiously providing us with a fair-handed and even example of all races, factions, and battles- which is a required prerequisite for many of your arguments and is frankly ridiculous.

 Anemone wrote:
Okay...Asterios, not to be mean, but do you really not know that the Imperium only starts post-Unification Wars?

There's nothing wrong with it, I just want to make sure if you really don't know that or are just avoiding it,

But yes the Emperor is older than that. His age has no bearing on when he founds the Imperium though, which he only does post-Unification Wars.

well still talking about the worlds lost during the Heresy from the Eye of Terror expanding and the warp storms which took off with whole planets and their civilizations.

Also you keep liking to Quote how the Beast was bigger and stronger then Ghazghkull and yet couldn't win, you keep forgetting during the time of the Beast there were not Tyranids, no Necrons, no Tau, now the empire has more enemies and one of them is a killer and has destroyed hundreds of Imperium planets by devouring them.so they beast may have been tougher, but the Empire now has more enemies.

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
Okay...Asterios, not to be mean, but do you really not know that the Imperium only starts post-Unification Wars?

There's nothing wrong with it, I just want to make sure if you really don't know that or are just avoiding it,

But yes the Emperor is older than that. His age has no bearing on when he founds the Imperium though, which he only does post-Unification Wars.

well still talking about the worlds lost during the Heresy from the Eye of Terror expanding and the warp storms which took off with whole planets and their civilizations.

Also you keep liking to Quote how the Beast was bigger and stronger then Ghazghkull and yet couldn't win, you keep forgetting during the time of the Beast there were not Tyranids, no Necrons, no Tau, now the empire has more enemies and one of them is a killer and has destroyed hundreds of Imperium planets by devouring them.so they beast may have been tougher, but the Empire now has more enemies.

Which is still nothing compared to the endless victories of the Great Crusade.

So? We weren't talking about this. You're just changing the subject for some reason.

@BrainFireBob:

And if the Imperium uses Exterminatus or a later crusade lands and re-takes it? That's how the Imperium operates.

But the Imperium doesn't have to always win. So why not just make it that the Crusade and Exterminatus fail and the planet remains in Ork control? What's wrong with that? Are you literally saying the Imperium can never be allowed to lose a world unless they retake it or destroy it?

Prove it. You can't, because all you can say is "we haven't seen it yet." That's a very different thing.

I've already explained why this is an inane argument.

The Imperium is running out. Early on, it was so dominant it didn't matter- now it does.

So arbitrarily, over 8000+ years, now it happens because it suits you? No, it doesn't work like that, sorry.

He got the psyker he wanted and sealed his pact with Fulgrim. That was the primary goal. That was achieved.

Well I hate to inform you then that more recent fluff has retcon it. Traitor's Hate explicitly states that what Abaddon sought on Pandorax eluded him and that as a result he's been forced to look for the Daemon Cage.

It's explicit that the fracturing is inevitable, because the only mechanicum adept with the expertise to fix it was killed.

And then in the stinger revealed to have uploaded his consciousness to a new body. And the Grey Knights are en route. Its presumptuous to say its a Chaos victory. Not saying its going to be a loss, but at the same time you can't yet proclaim it a victory.

It *could*. Too many times into the breach, too much lost technology.

If it can afford the victories then they aren't Pyrrhic. If it could afford those victories then they weren't Pyrrhic. A Pyrrhic victory is one you can't really afford. If they could afford those victories than they weren't Pyrrhic victories.

If this is the new Death Masque fluff, whoever wrote it should be fired. That's moronic. The Craftworlds draw their power from the Warp via wraithbone.

So your argument is...you don't like the fluff?

Back when the Imperium was at the peak of its power, having recovered from the Heresy. The Beast was in 32000; this is 40,000

The Imperium was not at the peak of its power. I don't know if you've read the Beast Arises series, but within it they multiple times point out how much weaker the Imperium is than it used to be. Indeed they even point out that were the Imperium at the peak of its powers they would have been able to handle the problem better.

Factually and completely inaccurate. This was a sector of imperial space where the Mechanicum discovered a new species. They dispatched a cleansing force caught in the same warpstorm that isolated Tau'a for a millennia. This is from the original Tau codex. This was imperial space slated for terraforming; something protected the Tau until they could face the Imperium.

Yes! The space was going to be settled, but the Imperium had not yet settled it. Read the Tau Codex, the Tau only encounter Imperium Worlds after they cross the Damocles Gulf.

We're also told how difficult it is for them to replace dead Marines and that they lost their Chapter Master. The Guard are fatalists, that's not the same thing.

Actually Shrike doesn't seem concerned at all with replacing casualties. Definitely not upset or thinking they've been gutted. In fact nowhere does it ever say the Raven Guard have been gutted/

Chaos is actually attempting to win-win for the first time in 10,000 years- because Abaddon has decided he's ready.

Yes, it is attempting, that's it. Everyone is 'attempting' nothing wrong with saying that.

Blasted star systems that it can't recolonize to high technology. It also loses all the time- count up every Exterminatus referred to. The Sabbat Crusade was to reclaim worlds that had been lost. It gains and loses constantly. That's mentioned endlessly in the fluff.

How...do you know these star systems are blasted or can't be colonized? Also there definitely haven't been 200 separate Exterminatus mentioned in Fluff, let alone plus 72 additional star-systems, so still not seeing your point.

Stop pretending there is anything that qualifies as data. As an engineer, I find it incredibly offensive. It's made up material in a fantastic setting that's internally inconsistent. From a pure data standpoint, it's over-sampled. If it was consistent and regular, sure, but it's not.

So what...you do want me to just make it up?

Also I don't see how saying 'I'm an engineer' affects anything. I'm a historian, so what? I have a friend who's an engineer and they wouldn't share your opinion on it, so what's the point?

Based on nothing. The Eldar didn't choose to do what the Emperor did, on purpose, until their species was nearly gone. (Ynnead is effectively an Eldar Emperor).

A collection of a small group of Eldar Shamans...you don't know what Ynnead is, do you?

Reading the future as the Eldar do is essentially gambling. They pick based on probabilities, not certainties.

And in fluff they usually get it wrong. glad we agree.

I totally disagree that we've seen anything that indicates the Eldar lack the psychic power of a Malcador or Magnus. See the problem?

Have the Eldar teleported a Planet?

Didn't get the cache, still sealed his pact with Fulgrim.

The book explicitly states Abaddon did not get what he desires. It was GW's own explicit book. Are you saying GW is wrong?

Ghazgkull was testing the telly-porta at Piscina, it was the other Ork's warband. The Templars were at Golgotha, that's from the old Armageddon codex.

Yeah, Golgotha, I already mentioned that one. What's your point?

Incorrect. They don't have as many *listed* achievements. Canon's not complete yet.

Inane way of dodging the issue again.

Seriously if you're only argument is 'its all happening off-screen' then its not even worth bothering really.

The Golden Throne is holding shut a webway portal that is compromised. That's what the Emperor is doing through most of the Heresy. That's why he only personally could do something when Malcador took his place. That's part of why he went back on- there's more than one reference to this.

Uh, yeah, you said Terra was overrun by Daemons in your last post. So...why'd you lie?

No Emperor, no Astronomicon.

But the Emperor...isn't gone?

How do you not know that no Astronomicon, no human Warp navigation!? That's foundational!

This...has to be trolling.

Yeah, there's more out there, Anemone.

The Tau skim the Warp. They can't really enter it for fast travel. Orks get tougher the longer they fight- they grow and become more dangerous. The more opposition, the more extreme Xenoforms that appear- hence Black Orks and the fact Kryptmann's Gambit has resulted in Orkoid life forms of a size never before seen.

Yes, skim, very important and fundamental difference of the setting. Also, sorry, but Orks were literally stronger in the past. That's just a fact of the setting. Nothing of what you say addresses the canon fact that Orks were bigger and stronger in the Beast Waaagh!!! and before than they are now. That's canon.

 Anemone wrote:
@BrainFireBob:

And if the Imperium uses Exterminatus or a later crusade lands and re-takes it? That's how the Imperium operates.

But the Imperium doesn't have to always win. So why not just make it that the Crusade and Exterminatus fail and the planet remains in Ork control? What's wrong with that? Are you literally saying the Imperium can never be allowed to lose a world unless they retake it or destroy it?

that is how the Imperium sees it, if they cannot take the world they will destroy it, no ifs ands or butts about it.

 Anemone wrote:

Back when the Imperium was at the peak of its power, having recovered from the Heresy. The Beast was in 32000; this is 40,000

The Imperium was not at the peak of its power. I don't know if you've read the Beast Arises series, but within it they multiple times point out how much weaker the Imperium is than it used to be. Indeed they even point out that were the Imperium at the peak of its powers they would have been able to handle the problem better.

Problem with that is the Beast was only in one place, Ghazghkull is already in 2 sectors going to a third now.

 Anemone wrote:

Factually and completely inaccurate. This was a sector of imperial space where the Mechanicum discovered a new species. They dispatched a cleansing force caught in the same warpstorm that isolated Tau'a for a millennia. This is from the original Tau codex. This was imperial space slated for terraforming; something protected the Tau until they could face the Imperium.

Yes! The space was going to be settled, but the Imperium had not yet settled it. Read the Tau Codex, the Tau only encounter Imperium Worlds after they cross the Damocles Gulf.

and the Tau still control some of those worlds too.

 Anemone wrote:

I totally disagree that we've seen anything that indicates the Eldar lack the psychic power of a Malcador or Magnus. See the problem?

Have the Eldar teleported a Planet?

the Imperium only did it using Ork technology.

 Anemone wrote:

Ghazgkull was testing the telly-porta at Piscina, it was the other Ork's warband. The Templars were at Golgotha, that's from the old Armageddon codex.

Yeah, Golgotha, I already mentioned that one. What's your point?

his point was Ghazghkull was not trying to take Piscina, he was testing out the tellyporta system.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
Okay...Asterios, not to be mean, but do you really not know that the Imperium only starts post-Unification Wars?

There's nothing wrong with it, I just want to make sure if you really don't know that or are just avoiding it,

But yes the Emperor is older than that. His age has no bearing on when he founds the Imperium though, which he only does post-Unification Wars.

well still talking about the worlds lost during the Heresy from the Eye of Terror expanding and the warp storms which took off with whole planets and their civilizations.

Also you keep liking to Quote how the Beast was bigger and stronger then Ghazghkull and yet couldn't win, you keep forgetting during the time of the Beast there were not Tyranids, no Necrons, no Tau, now the empire has more enemies and one of them is a killer and has destroyed hundreds of Imperium planets by devouring them.so they beast may have been tougher, but the Empire now has more enemies.

Which is still nothing compared to the endless victories of the Great Crusade.

most of the victories of the great crusade were against no nothing Xenos that no longer exist, now the empire has greater issues to deal with like the Tyranids, Ghazghkull (with Mork and gork's help), the Necron waking, the Tau and Chaos. most of those (except for the Orks) they did not have to deal with before.

@Asterios: But why must the Imperium succeed? Why not just make it in the story they can't destroy the world or take it back from the Orks? Are you saying the Imperium can never lose a planet unless they take it back later or destroy it? Why not let another faction win and then maintain the planet, what's wrong with that?

But you've read the Beast Arises series haven't you? In that very series they state the Beast Waaagh!!! Covered the entire galaxy. The Beast Waaagh!!! Covered far more space than Ghazghkull's has.

Also the teleportation I'm speaking of, or phasing out is better, is psychic, I'm talking about Malcador.

And my point is why not in fluff have Ghazghkull beat a Space Marine army and conquer a planet from them.

Also the Great Crusade thought the Orks of Goro and Ullanor, not to mention Gharkul Blackfang, and the Eldar Craftworlds. Most of the victories of the Great Crusade were against Orks to be honest.

But this is my last post, I'm going to bed. This is already put of hand and no longer focused

I'll end simply by saying that if calls for there to simply be fair reflection in fluff and equitable division of fluff victories among factions is apparently this abhorrent to the fan base then clearly I am in the wrong place. I would hope we could all agree just on the need to in fluff better reflect the victories of other factions barring the Imperium. Putting aside all other issues this is really my key concern. Simply permitting the other factions to also gain a fair share of victories and importance in the narrative.

Good night.