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@Lusall: What do you mean about Wood Elves and Beastmen? The Wood Elves sacked Ghrond, beat Morathi, saved the Everqueen tiwce and helped Bretonnia too. They saved Karl Franz as well.

Beastmen were the worst in Fantasy, I agree, but they still sacked two whole provinces of the Empire and killed Tzar Bokha

Also, I forgot to say, the Empire did lose. The entire province of Solland, an enormous chunk of the Empire, was destroyed forever by Gorbad, they never got it back. Same for Sylvannia. The Empire took serious losses it never recovered from, whole provinces!

Still sounds like you're saying the reason to play Tau is cause you're factions insignificant if I'm honest.

Also everyone always says the Imperium is good so is it even an evil empire? Besides my problem isn't that the Imperium exists, it's that it's better than everyone at everything and seems to never really lose anything of importance, it just seems like a super-special snowflake faction which always comes out on top, which makes me wonder what's the point of the other factions other than making the Imperium look cool?

@Smudge: That's still one victory, and not for Ghazghkull, but for the Tau. So Ghazghkull still just has Golgotha (want to count how many victories Calgar, Dante or Logan have?)

So by your reckoning that's still just one victory against the dozens the Imperium has. I don't even agree with your argument but, even if you use it, it doesn't change anything.

The Imperium virtually always wins, that's a fact, sorry. No amount of just stating 'it was hard' changes any of that since the same is said whenever anyone wins anything in 40k.

Honesty I can't imagine you're actually arguing the Imperium loses as much as anyone else.

Can't we just solve this once and for all by tallying the number of victories the Imperium has against the other factions? Because I've got that list read and I like empirical data like that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Rocket Scientist wrote:I didn't actually mean librarians. I meant that the Emperor, shamans of Old Terra, Primachs, Malcador and such are all stronger than any Eldar ever. Not to mention human Alpha level Psykers can rip battle Titans in half which Eldrad can't even do. Point is the Eldar are said to be the most psychic race, but they clearly aren't. Humans clearly are. The top five strongest Psykers in the galaxy are all clearly human, I don't think Eldar even get into the top ten.

To be fair, the reason that the Eldar pyskers are seen as ineffectual is that their powers are:

1. Restrained, to avoid Slaanesh, whereas Imperial ones risk the Warp for more often, or just lack training.
2. Reserved for prognostication and divination, not warfare and direct destruction, like the human psykers.
3. Eldar generally are more psychically attuned, but not necessarily psychic, ie, able to manifest powers.
4. Humans are far more plentiful, so the odds of a stronger human psyker is higher than the odds of an Eldar one.

None of that changes that the humans are all that stongest Psykers and the Eldar don't have anywhere near as powerful psychic as humans. Even some old Shamans on earth apparently made a Psykers more powerful than the whole Eldar race.

Yeah, another good point, Eldar are worse Psykers than humans, with humans dominating all the strongest Psyker positions. Kind of like how they dominate everything in this setting.

 Anemone wrote:

@Asterios: What Wars did they lose? Last I checked they won the 1st and 2nd Tyrannic War, the 1st and 2nd Wars for Armageddon, the Horus Heresy, the War of the Beast, seriously what are these enormous wars they're losing?

did the Imperium wipe out all the Tyranids or eradicate them or even stop them in the first and second wars? no, so they didn't win those wars, they won some battles but that is it, the war rages on, di they stop Ghazghkull during the first or second war for Armageddon? no he still lives and he is still bringing the war to them and pretty much kicking butt on Armageddon, what you classify as winning wars is not winning wars, just battles, so yes the Imperium is losing the war in general while winning some battles here and there.

furthermore in any war against the Orks humans can never win, they may win battles but the Orks will return and return often.

But it doesn't have to be 'stomping flat' it just has to be actually winning a major war or something.

Fair enough but there are examples of those too - Orpheus, Damocles 1, Anphelion, Taros, Badab Wars, Armageddon, Kastorel Novem, Tyranid invasions etc.
All of those involved xenos factions that beat the IoM either outright or with an extremely bloody nose (extremely!).

The Imperium virtually always wins, in reports generated primarily by the Imperium, in codices written primarily by/about imperial forces.

It's all propaganda.

Believing that (and it is certainly believable, given the nature of the 40k background), makes humanity seem a lot less Mary-Sue.

Of course the Imperium would play down the importance of its defeats, while espousing its glorious victories. Of course they would say that humans are the greatest psykers ever, and that Astartes are the greatest warriors ever. However, how many areas of space has the Imperium lost and then wiped from its records? The quality of information that feeds down to our level is very poor indeed.

A lot of the issue comes when writers in love with their power-armoured Mary-Sues forget that particular facet of the fluff and start believing it themselves. That's a slippery slope that leads to things like back-flipping terminators...

In many ways, it's a shame they retconned the result of the 13th Black Crusade campaign. Chaos won, and Cadia was destroyed. I feel like they could go a lot further by progressing the storyline from there.

As regard that, look up 'progressing the story' on 1d4chan...

 Anemone wrote:
Honesty I can't imagine you're actually arguing the Imperium loses as much as anyone else.

No, what I am in favour of arguing is that in the setting, the Imperium loses just as much as anyone else. Unfortunately GW doesn't show that.

That doesn't mean that in the setting, which I am a fan of, the Imperium are the best.

Rocket Scientist wrote:

Pretty sure it's been stated the Imperium has the strongest fleet. Do the Necron have anything to compare to Emperor battleships, or the Rock, or Phalanx? Also didn't the Black Templar fleet beat Imotehk's or something?

If by strongest fleet you mean "all their ships together" then the Imperium probably does have the strongest fleet (possibly the Tyranids would if all in one spot, same with the Orks were they working together). Generally Necron ships are vastly superior. The Black Templar beating a small Necron fleet doesn't mean that Necron ships aren't better. The Phalalnx and the Rock might be able to defeat most Necron ships one-on-one but the Necrons also have the capability to construct far larger vessels such as the World Engine.

Yeah but none of that actually results in anything. The imperium doesn lost, you just put adjectives on it. I'm sorry but just strapping 'it cost a lot of manpower' isn't comparable to actually losing. Everything costs a lot of manpower in 40k, it's not a bar for winning or losing at all.

Every Hive Fleet results in dozens or hundreds of worlds stripped bare, likely never to be colonised by the Imperium. Orks constantly take Imperial worlds.

Also, haha, I do like that the Tau's thing is 'we don't matter at all, forget about us' that's a great way to make someone have fun with a faction. Thank goodness Fantasy didn't have that.

The Tau are the only faction that is really ascending. The Eldar have fallen, the Imperium is declining, the Orks are pretty much the same as ever, but the Tau? They are expanding, growing in technological terms and adding more species' into their empire.

You seem to want a massive change to the setting. Which is what 40K ultimately is. It's not a story, it's a setting for stories to play out within it. The Imperium is crumbling but with a million worlds it can win dozens of battles whilst losing hundreds of others. It's the strongest power around but it's still slowly but surely losing ground.

@Asterios; So let me just make sure I understand this correctly; if you were, for example, in charge of Lexicanum, you would then list not a single war ever?

Because you realize the 1st Tyrannic and 2nd Tyrannic War are listed there, and listed as Imperium victories? Same with 1st and 2nd Armageddon, with Sanctus, with Cryptus, with Damnos, with Horus Heresy, with Beast Waaagh!!!

So you're saying Lexicanum is wrong to list these as wars which the Imperium won?

How is Ghazghkull kicking Imperial Butt? Other than Golgotha where has he beaten the Imperium? If you're going to say he is kicking Imperial butt please provide me with a canonical example of him doing so.

As for 'humans can never win' wasn't that literally what Ullanor and the Beast Waaagh!!! were? Reducing the Orks to a non-threat level? In the Wolf of Ash and Fire doesn't the Emperor explicitly state this?

@Ratius:
Orpheus: Stalemate
Damocles 1: Stalemate
Anphelion: Sure, I'll give that
Taros: Sure, completely insignificant, but I'll give that
Badab Wars: The Imperium wins this, doesn't it? Pretty sure it does
Armageddon: How is this an Imperium defeat?
Kastorel Novem: Sure, this one is an Imperium defeat
Tyrannic Wars: The Tyranid have not won a single Tyrannic War. They are listed as losing both and the third is ongoing. So doesn't count.

Seriously what about an Imperium defeat on the scale of the Orkish defeat in the Beast Waaagh!!! or the the 2nd War for Armageddon? What about an Imperium defeat on the same scale as Eldrad in Death Masque or the Craftworlds of Biel-tan and Iyanden in the Battle of Orar's Sepulchre?

@YnneadWratih: I understand some of what you say, sure, but at the same time it is true that humans are simply the best at the everything within the setting. Human psykers far outclass Eldar psykers, even the strongest Eldar psyker (Eldrad) doesn't hold a candle to an Alpha Psyker, and an Alpha level Psyker is weak compared to Magnus, Lorgar, the Emperor or Malcador for example. For a race who are meant to be the most highly psychic species and pride themselves as such they don't have a single powerful psyker in the fluff. All the most powerful psykers are Humans.

That sucks for Eldar players.

@Sgt_Smudge: Then we have a clear difference of opinion. Since GW doesn't show the Imperium losing as much as anyone, and it is a narrative setting which I can only know through what is shown, it does mean the Imperium is better than everyone.

The Imperium, and I have calculated this, literally wins more battles and wars than all the other factions combined.

Personally, for me, being a fan of the setting doesn't translate into not criticizing the blatant 'sue' status the Imperium has within the setting. I don't see the two as exclusive.

But I can sympathize with the desire for GW to reflect a more balanced and equitable story. It will not happen however.

Rocket Scientist wrote:
@Lusall: What do you mean about Wood Elves and Beastmen? The Wood Elves sacked Ghrond, beat Morathi, saved the Everqueen tiwce and helped Bretonnia too. They saved Karl Franz as well.

Beastmen were the worst in Fantasy, I agree, but they still sacked two whole provinces of the Empire and killed Tzar Bokha

Also, I forgot to say, the Empire did lose. The entire province of Solland, an enormous chunk of the Empire, was destroyed forever by Gorbad, they never got it back. Same for Sylvannia. The Empire took serious losses it never recovered from, whole provinces!

Still sounds like you're saying the reason to play Tau is cause you're factions insignificant if I'm honest.

Also everyone always says the Imperium is good so is it even an evil empire? Besides my problem isn't that the Imperium exists, it's that it's better than everyone at everything and seems to never really lose anything of importance, it just seems like a super-special snowflake faction which always comes out on top, which makes me wonder what's the point of the other factions other than making the Imperium look cool?

The Imperium has lost plenty of worlds, never to get them back. I think the problem is here that the Empire losing a province is a bigger deal than the Imperium losing a world. Or even a dozen.

The Tau have beaten the Imperium in the Damoclese Gulf crusade. The Crusade was ground to a halt and had no way of going forward short of a protracted siege and it would have been beaten by arriving Tau reinforcements. So they made a pact and the Imperium withdrew. They were unable to go back because there are Orks and Tyranids attacking and the Imperium can't really bring to bear the forces it needs to destroy the Tau. It would take a huge, major Crusade. And it would suffer heavy casualties.

Now...if you're looking for a reason to play Tau? Think of it this way. The Yankees always win. (Usually). But that doesn't stop the Red Sox or my beloved Rangers from playing the game. You're the underdog. You're trying to create a glorious Empire and bring everyone into the fold of the Greater Good. It will take a long time and it won't be easy. You have to be careful not to rouse the Imperium too much. But the danger is worth the risk.

And to answer your question, the Imperium is as good as it gets for humanity. It's the big dog on campus. There are independent worlds out there, maybe even small groups of worlds. But none can stand up to the Imperium. And when the Imperium finds independent worlds, it conquers them and forces them to bow down to the Emperor. I digress. The Imperium is good in the sense that it keep humanity alive. But that's about it. The Imperium is about the most oppressive and vicious regime you could imagine. It makes Nazi Germany look enlightened and just. It is in no way 'good' by any standard of today's definition in regards to a government/nation. 40K doesn't really have "good guys". It's mostly shades of grey/gray.

There are bright spots. For instance, the Salamanders Space Marine chapter sees the protection of the innocent as a top priority. They will go out of their way to protect civilians and have come to blows with other Space Marines over the killing of civilians. But they will not hesitate to slay Eldar. Regardless if their soldiers or not.

Rocket Scientist wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Ithe best spaceships are human

Hahahaha.

*Looks over at Necron fleet*

Hahahaha.

Pretty sure it's been stated the Imperium has the strongest fleet. Do the Necron have anything to compare to Emperor battleships, or the Rock, or Phalanx? Also didn't the Black Templar fleet beat Imotehk's or something?

Lets look at the Battle of Amarah from Imperial Armour 12: Fall of Orpheus:

The Imperium fleet represents possibly the largest concentration of ships fielded in a single battle since the Heresy - seven primus-grade battleships (including an Apocalypse and Retribution), more than sixty cruisers and capital ships, several hundred escort class vessels, four battle barges (pg.40), and at least twelve strike cruisers (pg.51).

The Necron fleet is the largest recorded by the Imperium – two tomb ships (by the description, Cairns), twenty harvest ships (presumably primarily Scythes, possibly some Reapers), and the rest escorts (presumably Jackals and Dirges). The Necron fleet has only one quarter the number of ships in the Imperial fleet (pg.51), and has already destroyed three battle stations, landed an invasion force on Amarah Prime and indirectly cooked half of the planet Auric with solar flares (pg.44).

The Imperial fleet is formed up and ready to fight a pitched battle.

In the first pass of the fleets, fully one quarter of the Imperial fleet is destroyed or crippled. The second pass (in which the Necron fleet completely outmanoeuvres its foe) is even more devastating (pg.56).

Confirmed losses for the Necrons are one harvest ship destroyed (pg.56) and one tomb ship forced to disengage (pg.58).
One tomb ship and twelve harvest ships disengage and set about landing on Auric (pg.58), so it’s possible that this represents the undamaged portion of the fleet (over half by numbers of capitol ships). The rest of the fleet (one tomb ship, up to seven harvest ships) vanishes without a trace (likely phases out).

On the Imperial side, less than one in ten of the surviving ships is in fighting order, and all are damaged (pg.58). The Imperial fleet also withdraws.


Also worth noting is that while the void battle has been going on (which from the description doesn’t seem to have taken very long), the planetary invasion of Amarah has claimed billions of lives (pg.58) – bear in mind that this was a planet which the Imperium had been specifically fortifying in preparation for the Necron assault – there are nineteen million Guardsmen (including two million Krieg), and ten times that number of militia and reservists on the world, along with the entire Minotaurs Chapter and a Company of Marauders (minus those crewing the fleets) (pg.40).



As to matching battleships etc. Cairns are more than a match for Imperial battleships (Cairns are also 15km across, so they’re big boys). In Dark Creed, a Cairn destroys a Ramiles star fort which has been holding an entire chaos fleet at bay for at least three months in a single pass.

There was also that whole business with the World Engine, when it wrecked the Vidar sub-sector and inflicted millions of casualties on the Imperial Navy; taking the sacrifice of an entire Marine Chapter to destroy (and a huge amount of plot-induced stupidity on the part of the Necron defenders). Nor does the World Engine appear to be unique, as we see with the Impossible Planet in the 5th ed. Codex: Grey Knights.



Helbrecht destroying the Inevitable Conqueror is on a scale nowhere near comparable to those larger scale engagements which have been detailed elsewhere.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios; So let me just make sure I understand this correctly; if you were, for example, in charge of Lexicanum, you would then list not a single war ever?

Because you realize the 1st Tyrannic and 2nd Tyrannic War are listed there, and listed as Imperium victories? Same with 1st and 2nd Armageddon, with Sanctus, with Cryptus, with Damnos, with Horus Heresy, with Beast Waaagh!!!

So you're saying Lexicanum is wrong to list these as wars which the Imperium won?

How is Ghazghkull kicking Imperial Butt? Other than Golgotha where has he beaten the Imperium? If you're going to say he is kicking Imperial butt please provide me with a canonical example of him doing so.

As for 'humans can never win' wasn't that literally what Ullanor and the Beast Waaagh!!! were? Reducing the Orks to a non-threat level? In the Wolf of Ash and Fire doesn't the Emperor explicitly state this?

anything can be said, but you ignore the large patches of Ork occupied space that used to belong to the humans and other species, lets see what victories have the Imperium had on Armageddon in the third war? how many has Ghazghkull had? he seems to be running thru Hive Cites and Ports pretty fast to the point not much is left, and what has the Imperium done?

As to the Tyranids, so when Germany went tearing thru Russia Germany won the war according to you? the war is not won while forces still fight, and the Tyranid forces from the earlier forays into our universe still exist and are still fighting, not too mention all the imperial worlds the Tyranids stripped bare.

the reason you think the Imperium is the winner is because there is very little if any fluff on worlds they lost. and they have lost many worlds.

Classifying the Tyrranic wars as victories for the Imperium is probably a bit premature. They lost countless worlds, never to be re-colonised, and only just succeeded in stopping just two of the Tyranids' hive fleets. There are in all likelihood countless more hive fleets lurking in deep space.

There's only one Tyrranic war. The Imperium may have won its first few skirmishes, but the war in on a scale the Imperium has not yet comprehended.

I don't mean to keep harping on about it, but really the only way to reconcile the blatant favouritism that the Imperial forces get from a combination of incompetent writers, fanboys and the good old fashioned effects of having a human-centric target audience is to believe that the vast majority you hear about the successes of the Imperium is flagrant lies, or at least not the whole truth.

Here's something that might be more fun

Imagine yourself as in-universe when you're researching Imperial victories and losses.

Doesn't it strike you as suspicious that there's no record of Imperial defeats?

Eventually, of course, you'll be executed for asking heretical questions, but it helps explain some of the more flagrant fluff problems with Mary-Sue humans.

Lastly, the Eldar of 40k aren't powerful psykers in the 'blow your doors off with mind bullets' sort of way that powerful humans can be (although pre-Fall they likely were). They're more sinister than that. Their abilities to predict and manipulate the future are pretty much the only reason they're still a major power in the galaxy. If you want to see an example of the Imperium losing a war, the 2nd war of Armageddon is the perfect example. On the surface, they won the conflict with the Orks. However, that Waaagh was pointed in their direction by the manipulations of the Eldar. The Imperium lost a war they didn't even know they were fighting. Millions upon millions of humans dead, and not a single drop of Eldar blood spilt.

Oh, if there's any mention of that diabolical book where a 10,000 year old future-predicting psyker is outsmarted by the latest bunch of power-armoured Mary-Sues that's just poor writing really. Pick a different villain for the piece please.

Orpheus: Stalemate
Damocles 1: Stalemate
Anphelion: Sure, I'll give that
Taros: Sure, completely insignificant, but I'll give that
Badab Wars: The Imperium wins this, doesn't it? Pretty sure it does
Armageddon: How is this an Imperium defeat?
Kastorel Novem: Sure, this one is an Imperium defeat
Tyrannic Wars: The Tyranid have not won a single Tyrannic War. They are listed as losing both and the third is ongoing. So doesn't count.

Orpheus was a complete slaughter in favour of the Crons. I have the IA book.
And as I said the rest were either IoM defeats or very bloody noses (Badab, Arma and the Nid Wars).

The simple fact is if you dig deeper, the IoM does not win ever battle it fights nor does it sweep aside all else which seemed to be the OPs point.
Me and others are simply citing evidence to the contrary.
And yes Im sure we agree the Iom wins its fair share too or beats off the aggressor. But not always.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Classifying the Tyrranic wars as victories for the Imperium is probably a bit premature. They lost countless worlds, never to be re-colonised, and only just succeeded in stopping just two of the Tyranids' hive fleets. There are in all likelihood countless more hive fleets lurking in deep space.

There's only one Tyrranic war. The Imperium may have won its first few skirmishes, but the war in on a scale the Imperium has not yet comprehended.

I don't mean to keep harping on about it, but really the only way to reconcile the blatant favouritism that the Imperial forces get from a combination of incompetent writers, fanboys and the good old fashioned effects of having a human-centric target audience is to believe that the vast majority you hear about the successes of the Imperium is flagrant lies, or at least not the whole truth.

Here's something that might be more fun

Imagine yourself as in-universe when you're researching Imperial victories and losses.

Doesn't it strike you as suspicious that there's no record of Imperial defeats?

Eventually, of course, you'll be executed for asking heretical questions, but it helps explain some of the more flagrant fluff problems with Mary-Sue humans.

Lastly, the Eldar of 40k aren't powerful psykers in the 'blow your doors off with mind bullets' sort of way that powerful humans can be (although pre-Fall they likely were). They're more sinister than that. Their abilities to predict and manipulate the future are pretty much the only reason they're still a major power in the galaxy. If you want to see an example of the Imperium losing a war, the 2nd war of Armageddon is the perfect example. On the surface, they won the conflict with the Orks. However, that Waaagh was pointed in their direction by the manipulations of the Eldar. The Imperium lost a war they didn't even know they were fighting. Millions upon millions of humans dead, and not a single drop of Eldar blood spilt.

Oh, if there's any mention of that diabolical book where a 10,000 year old future-predicting psyker is outsmarted by the latest bunch of power-armoured Mary-Sues that's just poor writing really. Pick a different villain for the piece please.

So Eldrad was killed again? Instead of by Slaanesh, by the Deathwatch?

@Asterios: So the Emperor was wrong? I doubt that very much.

Additionally you asked for Imperium victories on Armageddon: The battle of Helsreach Hive, the battle of Gate IX not to mention a score of novels about victories by Space Marines and Imperial Guard. Can you mention some of Ghazghkull's victories on Armageddon?

Okay, so, according to you Lexicanum is wrong to list there being a 1st and 2nd Tyrannic War won by the Imperium?

And, yes, of course the lack of fluff affects it. This is a story, if you can't provide the evidence, I can't know it happened. So if the story doesn't actually say or tell me many Imperial armies are losing important fights then I can't believe that.

 Lusall wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Classifying the Tyrranic wars as victories for the Imperium is probably a bit premature. They lost countless worlds, never to be re-colonised, and only just succeeded in stopping just two of the Tyranids' hive fleets. There are in all likelihood countless more hive fleets lurking in deep space.

There's only one Tyrranic war. The Imperium may have won its first few skirmishes, but the war in on a scale the Imperium has not yet comprehended.

I don't mean to keep harping on about it, but really the only way to reconcile the blatant favouritism that the Imperial forces get from a combination of incompetent writers, fanboys and the good old fashioned effects of having a human-centric target audience is to believe that the vast majority you hear about the successes of the Imperium is flagrant lies, or at least not the whole truth.

Here's something that might be more fun

Imagine yourself as in-universe when you're researching Imperial victories and losses.

Doesn't it strike you as suspicious that there's no record of Imperial defeats?

Eventually, of course, you'll be executed for asking heretical questions, but it helps explain some of the more flagrant fluff problems with Mary-Sue humans.

Lastly, the Eldar of 40k aren't powerful psykers in the 'blow your doors off with mind bullets' sort of way that powerful humans can be (although pre-Fall they likely were). They're more sinister than that. Their abilities to predict and manipulate the future are pretty much the only reason they're still a major power in the galaxy. If you want to see an example of the Imperium losing a war, the 2nd war of Armageddon is the perfect example. On the surface, they won the conflict with the Orks. However, that Waaagh was pointed in their direction by the manipulations of the Eldar. The Imperium lost a war they didn't even know they were fighting. Millions upon millions of humans dead, and not a single drop of Eldar blood spilt.

Oh, if there's any mention of that diabolical book where a 10,000 year old future-predicting psyker is outsmarted by the latest bunch of power-armoured Mary-Sues that's just poor writing really. Pick a different villain for the piece please.

So Eldrad was killed again? Instead of by Slaanesh, by the Deathwatch?

Not killed, but defeated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anemone wrote:
And, yes, of course the lack of fluff affects it. This is a story, if you can't provide the evidence, I can't know it happened. So if the story doesn't actually say or tell me many Imperial armies are losing important fights then I can't believe that.

It is also a setting, which functions just as well on the logic of GW saying "The Imperium is losing and war on all sides and is doomed and the clock is almost at midnight yadayadayada". Being a setting as well as a story means that GW's word on that is still gospel.

You may disagree, but it's just as valid as anything you can point at in the multitudes of human-centric stories written by humans.

Nah I don't think he was, but his plans were certainly scuppered.

My personal headcanon for the former (even though it's been retconned), plus his appearance during the Horus Heresy ~8000 years before he should be alive, is that Eldrad Ulthran isn't an individual it's a title.

Eldrad Ulthran literally means 'greatest seer of Ulthwe'. If the armour is passed down from head seer to head seer, it would make sense that the lesser races of the galaxy would assume it's a single individual.

 Ratius wrote:
[Orpheus was a complete slaughter in favour of the Crons. I have the IA book.

Yeah. When the sector is dissolved, and all remaining Imperial forces written off, that ain't a victory.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: So the Emperor was wrong? I doubt that very much.

Additionally you asked for Imperium victories on Armageddon: The battle of Helsreach Hive, the battle of Gate IX not to mention a score of novels about victories by Space Marines and Imperial Guard. Can you mention some of Ghazghkull's victories on Armageddon?

Okay, so, according to you Lexicanum is wrong to list there being a 1st and 2nd Tyrannic War won by the Imperium?

And, yes, of course the lack of fluff affects it. This is a story, if you can't provide the evidence, I can't know it happened. So if the story doesn't actually say or tell me many Imperial armies are losing important fights then I can't believe that.

40K isn't really a story. It's a setting. Not to nitpick, but there's a difference. The black library gives you story in the settings. And you make the stories as well as you fight the battles.

Of course, that does seem to be changing with some of the new fluff. A lot of which I think is garbage but that's a different subject.

I don't know what else to say other than, yeah the Imperium 'won' the 1st and 2nd tyranic war. But what they lost makes the victories seem pretty hollow. And those hollow victories are becoming pretty common. The Imperium can't really lose in the way you're wanting without the setting getting a huge reset. Could GW chill with how heroic they've made Space Marines? Yeah, I would say so. But I just don't agree that the Imperium 'always wins' because many of those victories are the definition of pyrrhic.

And just to let you know, the Horus Heresy and the Beast Arises were victories but what the Imperium lost in those has shaken it to the core in a way that resonates to the 'modern' day. I believe you asked that something like that happen. It has.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: So the Emperor was wrong? I doubt that very much.

Additionally you asked for Imperium victories on Armageddon: The battle of Helsreach Hive, the battle of Gate IX not to mention a score of novels about victories by Space Marines and Imperial Guard. Can you mention some of Ghazghkull's victories on Armageddon?

Okay, so, according to you Lexicanum is wrong to list there being a 1st and 2nd Tyrannic War won by the Imperium?

And, yes, of course the lack of fluff affects it. This is a story, if you can't provide the evidence, I can't know it happened. So if the story doesn't actually say or tell me many Imperial armies are losing important fights then I can't believe that.

The orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

and yet you call that a victory and what is Gate IX? it is not in the game books?

also you have to remember the fluff focuses on Imperium victories since they have to make the good guys look like they are winning, that is why major victories for other then human species are lacking.

@Lord Damocles: The IA book calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Lexicanum calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Sorry but I'm going to trust those sources more.

@Lusall: No what they lost doesn't make the victories hollow, how do you estimate that? If what they lost made the victories hollow then that would have to actually mean a pyrrhic victory, meaning they'd have to lose something of worth which concretely and materially impacted the survival of the hegemon.

Why can't the Imperium lose? Why not let the Space Wolves just lose on Sanctus Reach and have the Orks Conquer it? What's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there? Why not have Eldrad defeat a named Space Marine, what's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there?

You can 'not agree' but it doesn't change that the Imperium wins every major war and that, after collating the battles, the Imperium has more victories than all other factions combined.

Seriously I don't understand how you dispute the Imperium virtually always winning when, quite literally if you just scroll down a list of wars and battles, virtually all of them are described as an Imperial Victory.

@Asterios: But you just admitted now that their aren't many victories for non-human factions? So what are we discussing?

I wouldn't say the humans are the best psykers. All the most impressive feats of psychic might we've seen outside of probably the Emperor himself have generally come from aliens - the Eldar stopping time and creating illusions across entire solar systems, the Prime of Primes shattering the minds of people across the entire Imperium and being so powerful that librarians couldn't even land on his planet without headsploding, the Cacodominus exerting control over 1300 planetary systems... compared with all of that, the biggest thing a Librarian has ever done was slice a battleship in half, which is kind of small-scale in comparison.

 Anemone wrote:
@Lord Damocles: The IA book calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Lexicanum calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Sorry but I'm going to trust those sources more.

@Lusall: No what they lost doesn't make the victories hollow, how do you estimate that? If what they lost made the victories hollow then that would have to actually mean a pyrrhic victory, meaning they'd have to lose something of worth which concretely and materially impacted the survival of the hegemon.

Why can't the Imperium lose? Why not let the Space Wolves just lose on Sanctus Reach and have the Orks Conquer it? What's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there? Why not have Eldrad defeat a named Space Marine, what's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there?

You can 'not agree' but it doesn't change that the Imperium wins every major war and that, after collating the battles, the Imperium has more victories than all other factions combined.

Seriously I don't understand how you dispute the Imperium virtually always winning when, quite literally if you just scroll down a list of wars and battles, virtually all of them are described as an Imperial Victory.

@Asterios: But you just admitted now that their aren't many victories for non-human factions? So what are we discussing?

so you are saying all those planets that the imperium lost to the Tyranids, the Tau and the Orks and so on are victories for the Imperium?

and if you are going to quote me quote it right, I did not say there are not many victories for non-human factions, only that they are not recorded, but they do exist.

furthermore victory in war is when you gained, not lost, the Imperium has been losing much, so they are not victorious.

 Anemone wrote:
@Lord Damocles: The IA book calls it a stalemate, explicitly.

Are you basing that on page 60?

@Robin5t: Didn't Malcador teleport a planet? Also Magnus is stated to be stronger than him so...

Also I don't think the Prime of Prime's personally did that, that was the gestalt Psychic of the whole Beast Waaagh!!! I think.

The strongest Psykers, without a doubt, are the Emperor, the Primarchs and then Malcador. That's kind of a fact. The Eldar aren't anywhere near the top.

@Asterios: If they aren't recorded then they don't count since this is a narrative story. Give me evidence of these great and crippling defeats the Imperium has suffered if you're going to insist they're real.

 Anemone wrote:
@Lord Damocles: The IA book calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Lexicanum calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Sorry but I'm going to trust those sources more.

@Lusall: No what they lost doesn't make the victories hollow, how do you estimate that? If what they lost made the victories hollow then that would have to actually mean a pyrrhic victory, meaning they'd have to lose something of worth which concretely and materially impacted the survival of the hegemon.

Why can't the Imperium lose? Why not let the Space Wolves just lose on Sanctus Reach and have the Orks Conquer it? What's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there? Why not have Eldrad defeat a named Space Marine, what's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there?

You can 'not agree' but it doesn't change that the Imperium wins every major war and that, after collating the battles, the Imperium has more victories than all other factions combined.

Seriously I don't understand how you dispute the Imperium virtually always winning when, quite literally if you just scroll down a list of wars and battles, virtually all of them are described as an Imperial Victory.

@Asterios: But you just admitted now that their aren't many victories for non-human factions? So what are we discussing?

So all you want is for someone to say "Yes, the Imperium wins more than it loses"? Okay, sure. I'll give you that. Because the Imperium can take a punch and keep coming. It's the Empire of a million worlds. The problem is, you seem to think it's the good guy. "The good guy always wins". The Imperium is only good in the sense that it keeps humanity alive as a whole. Beyond that, there's nothing 'good' about it. The reality is, the big bad evil empire keeps winning. As it normally does in reality. If the Imperium never won, it would be freaking Star Wars. The small plucky band of pirates beats the evil galactic spanning empire in an unlikely battle.

To answer your question though above "why can't the Imperium lose at Sanctus reach and have the Orks Conquer it?" Sure. Then a hundred years later, the Imperium comes back with a huge army to retake it. Because it's the Imperium. Have I mentioned it's an Empire of a million worlds? But at the same time, that's one world. What if the Imperium loses 1000 worlds? Well...it will shrug it off at first. But eventually, it will come back to haunt them. Especially when they lose the next 1000. Then the next. An Empire that large doesn't fall overnight. And the current setting, for all its bad writing, has made it clear that the Imperium is starting to collapse under its own weight and the loss of all those planets is starting to tell.

 Anemone wrote:
@Robin5t: Didn't Malcador teleport a planet? Also Magnus is stated to be stronger than him so...

Also I don't think the Prime of Prime's personally did that, that was the gestalt Psychic of the whole Beast Waaagh!!! I think.

The strongest Psykers, without a doubt, are the Emperor, the Primarchs and then Malcador. That's kind of a fact. The Eldar aren't anywhere near the top.

@Asterios: If they aren't recorded then they don't count since this is a narrative story. Give me evidence of these great and crippling defeats the Imperium has suffered if you're going to insist they're real.

go read the Codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull its all detailed in there, especially all the losses the Imperium has suffered on Armageddon and how its now just a war for survival since they have already lost most of the planet to the Orks, so tell me if the Imperium are the winners, what did they gain? so far only see them losing planets and not gaining many. at best maybe recovering planets they lost but even then not all of them, heck the tau have taken a bunch of Imperial planets into their collective that the Imperium has yet to get back.

@Lusall: No, I want acceptance that the fluff as it is now paints the Imperium as pretty much superior in all regards to all other factions and also as virtually never losing anything of consequence.

Also I don't think the Imperium is good at all. It is as evil as the Orks and Tyranids since it seeks the extermination of all other life in the galaxy.

It is however the blatantly favored faction which receives disproportionate victories.

Why come back and conquer it? No non-Imperium faction has come and conquered Baal, or the Rock, or Terra, or Cadia, or Catachan, or any other hundreds of worlds, so why not let the Orks win on Sanctus Reach and keep it? Why is that idea unacceptable?

Also when did the Imperium lose 1000 worlds? Please tell me. Because I do not remember reading anywhere that it has been losing thousands of worlds.

And of course an Empire that large doesn't fall over night, that's why its been 8000 years.

I don't see how the current setting has made anything clear other than that every major attack on the Imperium is always repulsed and the damage undone. Even the Beast Arises series ends with, in the Beheading, the Imperium reclaiming the lost territory, wiping out the reminaing Orks, going unto the fourth founding, heck the whole point is that in the aftermath of the Beast Waaagh!!! The Imperium got stronger, it didn't suffer any permanent harm, it improved.

@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.