Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I should probably start by saying I've mostly been a Fantasy player till it blew up, and though I do some AoS I've been thinking of maybe trying 40k for a while now. I forewarn that obviously I only started about a month ago researching, so any glaring mistakes or stuff just let me know, in case I missed something is kinda why I'm asking, cause what I did find left me confused.

So I did some research, on the fluff mind you, and I'm just a little confused. There doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to invest in any faction which isn't part of the Imperium. Basically everyone else in the fluff seems just to exist to just their asses kicked nonstop. The Orks can't win a damn thing, unlike in Fantasy where Grom sacked the Empire's Capital and Gorbad never even got killed, the Eldar really suck, the Tau are totally insignificant. The Necron on paper should be good but they don't actually seem to get anything ever done (also why don't they use their time travel and ability to destroy stars everywhere to insta-win already?). The Tyranids seem to do okay, but still lose every war they're in and Chaos seems to never, ever be able to win a war even when everything is in their favour (although I'll never again put it past GW just to let Chaos blow everything up). Not to mention one guy who's just a bunch of shamans reincarnated somehow threatens all four Chaos Gods, how does that work?

Also humans are just like the best at everything; the strongest Psykers are all humans, the best Titans are human, the best assassins are human, the best spaceships are human, the toughest warriors are human too. Eldar are meant to be psychically powerful, but all the strongest Psykers are humans, Orks are meant to be tough but the Space Marines are way tougher, Eldar are meant to be good at force fields but Imperium Storm Shields are way better than the Eldar's infantry force fields and the Tau are meant to be advanced but Imperium stuff is way more advanced.

It's like the humans in the setting are just good at everything and better at everything then every other race. So what's the motivation to play anyone other than the Imperium? Cause I can't find any in fluff.

Mind you fluff isn't the only thing I'm using to choose if I'll give it a go or not, but I'm just perplexed by how I'm meant to care about any army other than the Imperium's is all,

Xenos factions being the less popular underdogs makes me more inclined to play them, not less.

For what it's worth, on the table eldar, tau, daemons and necrons are good

First, welcome to Dakka, and 40k.

The imperium is defiantly the protagonist in the setting. So a lot of the fluff is slanted towards them. It’s also worth noting that 40k is a lot more of a static setting, then an ongoing story. Although that might be subject to change. So a lot of the conflicts end with humanity fending off the <fill in blank> at some horrid cost to maintain the status quo. But a new threat is always looming.

As for the IoM being the “best” that’s not really the case. One thing that skews that view is that the fluff tends to focus on the heroes, and other exceptions. So while there might be some very powerful space marine librarians, the best of which might be better then your average eldar farseer, they are not top dog. It’s also worth noting that there are a ton of discrepancies between the fluff and the tabletop. For example, terminator armor is supposed to be awesome and neigh invulnerable. Something it laughably fails at once plastic hits the table. If the fluff were more representative on the table, each space marine would cost around 100 points, and a squad of them could mulch most armies.

I was going to write a long winded thing about the races.
Especially the Orkz.
But your not, your supposed to like and buy space marines.
Blame hollywood with its super hero happy ending movies.

Actually look into Waaaaagh: Ghazghkull he is an Ork that is setting the Imperium on fire from one end to the other, especially on Armageddon.

The history of the Imperium stretches 10,000 years. If 40K is to happen (as in modern 40K, or the 999th year of the 41st millennium) it would have to survive as a whole for those 10K years. It's a massive Empire of a million worlds. So while it may lose a thousand worlds to a large Tyranid or Ork invasion, it's not going to cry over spilled milk. It's going to call on the remaining 999,000 worlds to muster a few million men and a couple space marine chapters to halt the invasion.

Think of it this way. The Imperium is both the protagonist and the antagonist. Chaos isn't some huge empire. It's an insurgency that picks away at the Imperium a few bits at a time.

The Orks cause mayhem all over but fall to infighting even if they win. Some of the larger Ork Whaaagh!s are scary but not large enough to break the Imperium.

The Tau are small, and if the Imperium really wanted to they could take them out. But it would cost a good bit and the Imperium has more important things to worry about. Like the recent threat of the Tyranids. Each fleet is getting bigger and scarier than the last. And it seems like there are more waiting in the void.

The Eldar and Dark Eldar are too small to destroy the Imperium as a whole. But they pick apart one world or two at a time. Sometimes, the Dark Eldar let the world live so they can come back for more slaves later. The normal Eldar want to be left the hell alone (except for Biel Tan) but will let a human world burn to save just one Eldar life.

The Necrons are getting organized. While one Dynasty might not scare the Imperium, as the 41st Millennium comes to a close, more and more Dynasties are bending the knee to Imhotek's(?) dynasty.

All of this leads to "modern" 40K where all the big bads are getting organized and things aren't looking too good for a stagnant Imperium.

That's 40K. Beat one enemy, three more pop up. It's a never ending cycle of war and destruction. And while humanity is "the good guy" they also play the part of the giant prick that many would like to see destroyed.

Long rant, sorry. Sure it makes only some sense. But that's the fluff, more or less.

@Asterios: Ghazghkull has defeated the Imperium once, at Golgotha. No Space Marines were present there either, if I recall, so it shows the battle was not considered very important.

Ghazghkull was defeated at both Piscina and Armageddon and has only ever defeated the Imperium while defending Golgotha. That is it. Ghazghkull's biggest accomplishments are his consistent failure to defeat the Imperium in important conflicts. He's not setting anything, other than Octarius, on fire.

So what's the motivation to play anyone other than the Imperium? Cause I can't find any in fluff.

From a strictly "we'll stomp the Imperium flat" point of view?
None probably.
But the Xenos races have far more interesting and appreciable fluff than that anyways.
If you're looking for a xenos race that is right now comparable to the IoM, there isnt one. But there are a myriad of hints that there might be (X+1 Nids still in the void, Crons reawkrnning more and more, Orks uniting fully under Ghaz etc etc).

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: Ghazghkull has defeated the Imperium once, at Golgotha. No Space Marines were present there either, if I recall, so it shows the battle was not considered very important.

Ghazghkull was defeated at both Piscina and Armageddon and has only ever defeated the Imperium while defending Golgotha. That is it. Ghazghkull's biggest accomplishments are his consistent failure to defeat the Imperium in important conflicts. He's not setting anything, other than Octarius, on fire.

tell that too the people on Armageddon, his protracted war there has cost the Imperium dearly with them having to reroute forces from other fronts to deal with it, and they have yet to deal with it, meanwhile Ghazghkull has laid waste to several nearby planets and even helped Orks in other areas of the galaxies against other alien life forms like Tyranids and he is just getting started.

also you realize the Armageddon war is still going ? (the third war)

The Imperium won the 2nd war. Please name these other victories Ghazghkull has had, if he's so successful against the Imperium as you are implying then I am sure you have many examples of his great victories against the Imperium. I can't wait to hear them.

Yes, the third war is ongoing, so what's your point? He still hasn't won a single meaningful victory. Ghazghkull's a loser, just like Abaddon and every other 'threat' to the Imperium.

I would also love to hear more about these costs, what worlds have been lost due to the cost of Armageddon? What battles has the Imperium lost due to the cost of Armageddon? Because a cost isn't a cost if it isn't actually costing you anything (naturally).

 Anemone wrote:
The Imperium won the 2nd war. Please name these other victories Ghazghkull has had, if he's so successful against the Imperium as you are implying then I am sure you have many examples of his great victories against the Imperium. I can't wait to hear them.

Yes, the third war is ongoing, so what's your point? He still hasn't won a single meaningful victory. Ghazghkull's a loser, just like Abaddon and every other 'threat' to the Imperium.

I would also love to hear more about these costs, what worlds have been lost due to the cost of Armageddon? What battles has the Imperium lost due to the cost of Armageddon? Because a cost isn't a cost if it isn't actually costing you anything (naturally).

well for starters you act like the Imperium has won the war on Armageddon, they have not, they have lost hive cites and ports to the Orks and are still fighting the war with no end in sight, so in essence the Imperium is weak and a loser according to you.

also with all local forces being drawn to Armageddon by the Imperium it has left many local planets weak and easy pickings for Ghazghkull which he has taken them.

then we have the Octarian war which Ghazghkull managed to wipe out Hive Fleet Leviathan (well a large chunk of it that was drawn to the rich biomass there, but they will return), he also killed a Mawloc single handedly after being swallowed by it. then there was the Tau base on Fang's world.

then we have the Galactic Green wave which basically scared all warp-sensitive souls senseless

what it comes down to is no I repeat no group ever wins, they may win battles, but the war never ends, kill Orks they return, kill Tyranids, they return smarter, kill Humans they return, kill Eldar and they suffer, the Imperium may be strong but they are weak just like the other races.

You still aren't providing me any examples. Name a single battle in which Ghazghkull beats the Imperium other than Golgotha.

If he does it so much why not simply give me an example? I mean the examples you've given are against the Tyranid and Tau, what about examples against the Imperium?

Also of course the Imperium isn't weak; they beat Horus, beat the Beast, destroyed four Craftworlds, wiped out the World Engine, destroyed Hive Fleet Behemoth, undone the machinations of Eldrad, destroyed the Ork Empire of Ullanor and more besides. Obviously the Imperium isn't weak.

Ghazghkull hasn't done anything remotely close to any of that. Ghazghkull can't conquer a single planet from the Imperium. Literally.

You've been reading all that Imperial propaganda haven't you?

One of the best things about 40k fluff is how fluid its interpretation can be. It's known that to maintain its sense of invulnerability, the Imperium will destroy records of lost conflicts and re-classify the lost space as 'uncharted territory' until it can muster a crusade to bring these 'uncharted' areas to the light of the Emperor.

Knowing that, how can you still take Astartes being unstoppable killing machines as anything other that propaganda?

If you take their resilience on the table-top as the true indicator of their real-world resilience (as I do, anything in the fluff could be written off as propaganda, but the crunch is where the reality lies) then they're tough, but there's hosts of things out there in the galaxy that can kill a marine stone-dead in a flash.

Saying that, one of the core aspects of the 40k fluff is that the Imperium is a creaking behemoth. It's by far and away the single greatest single power in the galaxy, which if unified against any single threat could quite easily crush it beneath the ceramite boots of its Astartes, and the 'pink tide' of millions upon millions of Guardsmen.

However, its enemies are so manifold, and powerful/cunning/advanced/brutal in their own right, that it's in a desperate fight for survival, spiraling inexorably towards its destruction.

There are plenty of compelling reasons to play as the enemies of mankind:

Eldar
You're the shattered remnants of a once-proud civilisation, furiously raging against the dying of the light. Take up your arms to fight for your species on the very brink of destruction.

Dark Eldar
You're the other half of the Eldar duality, and another shattered remnant. However, while the Craftworlders have struggled, you have thrived in the chaos following the Fall. Commorragh heaves with the clone populace of the Dark Eldar, and the hunger that gnaws at your soul drives you forth reaving and raiding into realspace. Take up your arms simply because it's fun to torture the slower races of the galaxy, although the glee with which you visit this slaughter hides a subtle hint of desperation.

Tau
You're basically the least nasty major race in the 40k universe (in that you don't outright purge other alien species without a half-decent reason to first), and your youthful empire is on the rise while all around you slip steadily into decay. Take up your arms and fight for the greater good of your people (or what the ethereals tell you is the greater good at least).

Orks
You're an out-of-control doomsday weapon unleashed untold aeons ago that's still rumbling through the galaxy. Your entire species lives for warfare. It's what you were created to do. Take up you arms because it's fun to krump 'umies

Chaos
You're the grizzled veterans of a war that's been raging for the last 10,000 years. Whether you're driven forwards by lust for power, religious fervour, simple sowing chaos (lower-case 'c')wherever you tread, the manipulation of lovecraftian gods, or bitter hatred towards the Imperium that betrayed you, you're united with the others of your warband in a struggle against the corpse-emperor of mankind. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is another man's religious zealot. Take up your arms because the Imperium betrays all those it feeds into the meat-grinder, and at least the Ruinous Powers reward their faithful.

Tyranids
You're an extra-galactic locust plague that's theorised to have devoured dozens of galaxies before this. The chittering swarms form one, far larger macro-organism, descending upon entire sectors of the galaxy, consuming all in its wake. Take up your arms (literally in this case), for the hunger of the Great Devourer knows no bounds.

Necrons
(I'll let someone who actually likes the new Necron fluff explain why they fight because I have real difficulty with it)

 Anemone wrote:
You still aren't providing me any examples. Name a single battle in which Ghazghkull beats the Imperium other than Golgotha.

If he does it so much why not simply give me an example? I mean the examples you've given are against the Tyranid and Tau, what about examples against the Imperium?

Also of course the Imperium isn't weak; they beat Horus, beat the Beast, destroyed four Craftworlds, wiped out the World Engine, destroyed Hive Fleet Behemoth, undone the machinations of Eldrad, destroyed the Ork Empire of Ullanor and more besides. Obviously the Imperium isn't weak.

Ghazghkull hasn't done anything remotely close to any of that. Ghazghkull can't conquer a single planet from the Imperium. Literally.

because the fluff doesn't mention planet names, just that he conquered nearby planets, as it goes the Imperium has already written off Armageddon as lost and is only fighting to contain the Orks there since if the Imperium cannot then the Orks could threaten Terra itself (that is from the Fluff),, right now Ghazghkull is running 2 succesful operations one against the Imperium and the other against Hive Fleet Leviathan.

As to Armageddon he has drawn over 150 companies of Space Marines, over 220 Regiments of Imperial guard, 10 companies of sisters, several Adeptus Mechanicus Legio's, that is a pretty big portion of the Imperium tied up on one planet fighting someone you call weak.

'Nameless planets' is useless. How do we know they have any significance or there were even battles? That just sounds like they were completely unimportant.

The Imperium hasn't 'written off' Armageddon. Where did you get that idea? Also Ghazghkull isn't running two 'successful operations' he's running two stalemates with no indication he's more likely to win than his opponent.

Also, so those numbers, great, now tell me what battles have been lost or worlds conquered due to those forces being sent to Armageddon? Since if those forces being sent to Armageddon has had no appreciable effect on the Imperium's borders or battles, then that proves nothing.

 Anemone wrote:
'Nameless planets' is useless. How do we know they have any significance or there were even battles? That just sounds like they were completely unimportant.

The Imperium hasn't 'written off' Armageddon. Where did you get that idea? Also Ghazghkull isn't running two 'successful operations' he's running two stalemates with no indication he's more likely to win than his opponent.

Also, so those numbers, great, now tell me what battles have been lost or worlds conquered due to those forces being sent to Armageddon? Since if those forces being sent to Armageddon has had no appreciable effect on the Imperium's borders or battles, then that proves nothing.

WAAAGH! Ghazghkull page 21 pretty much last paragraph above last sentence.

The Imperium had always dreaded the unification of so many Ork Tribes, and now its worst fears were coming true. Already the wisest of the Imperial leaders faced the grim realization that it was likely that the industry of Armageddon would soon be ruined beyond repair. The war was now less about saving Armageddon and more about preserving its sub-sector and. most sobering of all, preventing the ever-swelling tide of Orks from growing larger, If the great green menace could not be contained upon Armageddon, then it would sweep outwards and threaten the heart of the Imperium itself - Holy Terra.

I'd like to point out that Ghazghkull has been trying to keep the war raging as long as possible in order for his Orks to grow as big as they can from the constant fighting.

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Ithe best spaceships are human

Hahahaha.

*Looks over at Necron fleet*

Hahahaha.

Stuff that 'could' happen. None of this has happened. This doesn't change that Ghazghkull has never won a serious engagement against the Imperium. Seriously I don't see how you're providing any evidence against that claim of mine. This is an unrelated note about 'hypothetical future events' which have not occurred.

 Anemone wrote:
The Imperium won the 2nd war. Please name these other victories Ghazghkull has had, if he's so successful against the Imperium as you are implying then I am sure you have many examples of his great victories against the Imperium. I can't wait to hear them.

Forcing the Imperium to react and feed valuable men into the meat grinder is a victory in and of itself.

By the very virtue of the Imperium mobilising so many troops against Armageddon, the Damocles Gulf war was more successful for the Tau, and various other regions became undefended. If the Imperium stop feeding men into Armageddon, the orks are a stone's throw away from Terra itself.
Not to mention that Gork and Mork have actively imbued Ghazghkull with the power of the Waaagh!. That's got to count for something.
Ghazghkull might not have empowered himself or the orks, but he has weakened the Imperium. And against something so big, so monolithic, what victory would last against them? Take a world? The Imperium will feed troops into it until your land is covered in corpses. Kill a leader? You've just made them angrier.

Force them to keep feeding troops into an unending battle? That is victory.

The Imperium will not be brought to it's knees by a hammerblow. It will be by a thousand cuts, and not healing those wounds.

Yes, the third war is ongoing, so what's your point? He still hasn't won a single meaningful victory. Ghazghkull's a loser, just like Abaddon and every other 'threat' to the Imperium.

They are legitimate threats, because they know how to bleed the Imperium to death. Horus tried the hammerblow. Horus failed. Abaddon, Ghazghkull, Eldrad, indirectly the Tyranids and Tau - they are slowly killing the Imperium.

I would also love to hear more about these costs, what worlds have been lost due to the cost of Armageddon? What battles has the Imperium lost due to the cost of Armageddon? Because a cost isn't a cost if it isn't actually costing you anything (naturally).

Damocles Gulf, by association. I'm sure it pretty much says that, because of Armageddon, the Imperium were unable to dedicate more troops. It forced them to ignite the Gulf, losing it to both parties.

It has also cost the lives and war materiel of unknowable numbers, which the Imperium thrives on.

This is gonna be long, sorry, tried to respond to a lot of it

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Xenos factions being the less popular underdogs makes me more inclined to play them, not less.

For what it's worth, on the table eldar, tau, daemons and necrons are good

But they don't feel like 'underdogs' to me because underdogs can still win sometimes. It just looks to me like the Imperium wins virtually every war and is better than everyone at everything, with exception of the Necron I guess

 Nevelon wrote:
First, welcome to Dakka, and 40k.

The imperium is defiantly the protagonist in the setting. So a lot of the fluff is slanted towards them. It’s also worth noting that 40k is a lot more of a static setting, then an ongoing story. Although that might be subject to change. So a lot of the conflicts end with humanity fending off the <fill in blank> at some horrid cost to maintain the status quo. But a new threat is always looming.

As for the IoM being the “best” that’s not really the case. One thing that skews that view is that the fluff tends to focus on the heroes, and other exceptions. So while there might be some very powerful space marine librarians, the best of which might be better then your average eldar farseer, they are not top dog. It’s also worth noting that there are a ton of discrepancies between the fluff and the tabletop. For example, terminator armor is supposed to be awesome and neigh invulnerable. Something it laughably fails at once plastic hits the table. If the fluff were more representative on the table, each space marine would cost around 100 points, and a squad of them could mulch most armies.

Thanks for the welcome. I guess Fantasy didn't have a protagonist which, gotta be honest, I'm starting to think I'd enjoy more since in Fantasy almost all the factions felt meaningful to me and had some wins and losses whereas this seems, well, like you said, like the Imperium is the protagonist and so always has to win, be best and be right.

I didn't actually mean librarians. I meant that the Emperor, shamans of Old Terra, Primachs, Malcador and such are all stronger than any Eldar ever. Not to mention human Alpha level Psykers can rip battle Titans in half which Eldrad can't even do. Point is the Eldar are said to be the most psychic race, but they clearly aren't. Humans clearly are. The top five strongest Psykers in the galaxy are all clearly human, I don't think Eldar even get into the top ten.

 Lusall wrote:
The history of the Imperium stretches 10,000 years. If 40K is to happen (as in modern 40K, or the 999th year of the 41st millennium) it would have to survive as a whole for those 10K years. It's a massive Empire of a million worlds. So while it may lose a thousand worlds to a large Tyranid or Ork invasion, it's not going to cry over spilled milk. It's going to call on the remaining 999,000 worlds to muster a few million men and a couple space marine chapters to halt the invasion.

Think of it this way. The Imperium is both the protagonist and the antagonist. Chaos isn't some huge empire. It's an insurgency that picks away at the Imperium a few bits at a time.

The Orks cause mayhem all over but fall to infighting even if they win. Some of the larger Ork Whaaagh!s are scary but not large enough to break the Imperium.

The Tau are small, and if the Imperium really wanted to they could take them out. But it would cost a good bit and the Imperium has more important things to worry about. Like the recent threat of the Tyranids. Each fleet is getting bigger and scarier than the last. And it seems like there are more waiting in the void.

The Eldar and Dark Eldar are too small to destroy the Imperium as a whole. But they pick apart one world or two at a time. Sometimes, the Dark Eldar let the world live so they can come back for more slaves later. The normal Eldar want to be left the hell alone (except for Biel Tan) but will let a human world burn to save just one Eldar life.

The Necrons are getting organized. While one Dynasty might not scare the Imperium, as the 41st Millennium comes to a close, more and more Dynasties are bending the knee to Imhotek's(?) dynasty.

All of this leads to "modern" 40K where all the big bads are getting organized and things aren't looking too good for a stagnant Imperium.

That's 40K. Beat one enemy, three more pop up. It's a never ending cycle of war and destruction. And while humanity is "the good guy" they also play the part of the giant prick that many would like to see destroyed.

Long rant, sorry. Sure it makes only some sense. But that's the fluff, more or less.

None that really seems to change what I said though? I mean you're pretty much agreeing that none of the factions threaten the Imperium or ever win, aren't you?

I like how you summed up Tau though; 'you're not important' cause that's what I mean by I don't see a reason to play anyone but Imperium. I mean if the only draw of the Tau is how you're insignificant then why play?

Also if the Imperium is an 'antagonist' then it's the best damn antagonist I've ever seen in a story since it basically never loses. The Orks, chaos, Tyranids and Eldar lose pretty much every war they ever fight with them. That's a good antagonist.

 Ratius wrote:

So what's the motivation to play anyone other than the Imperium? Cause I can't find any in fluff.

From a strictly "we'll stomp the Imperium flat" point of view?
None probably.
But the Xenos races have far more interesting and appreciable fluff than that anyways.
If you're looking for a xenos race that is right now comparable to the IoM, there isnt one. But there are a myriad of hints that there might be (X+1 Nids still in the void, Crons reawkrnning more and more, Orks uniting fully under Ghaz etc etc).

But it doesn't have to be 'stomping flat' it just has to be actually winning a major war or something.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
You've been reading all that Imperial propaganda haven't you?

One of the best things about 40k fluff is how fluid its interpretation can be. It's known that to maintain its sense of invulnerability, the Imperium will destroy records of lost conflicts and re-classify the lost space as 'uncharted territory' until it can muster a crusade to bring these 'uncharted' areas to the light of the Emperor.

Knowing that, how can you still take Astartes being unstoppable killing machines as anything other that propaganda?

If you take their resilience on the table-top as the true indicator of their real-world resilience (as I do, anything in the fluff could be written off as propaganda, but the crunch is where the reality lies) then they're tough, but there's hosts of things out there in the galaxy that can kill a marine stone-dead in a flash.

Saying that, one of the core aspects of the 40k fluff is that the Imperium is a creaking behemoth. It's by far and away the single greatest single power in the galaxy, which if unified against any single threat could quite easily crush it beneath the ceramite boots of its Astartes, and the 'pink tide' of millions upon millions of Guardsmen.

However, its enemies are so manifold, and powerful/cunning/advanced/brutal in their own right, that it's in a desperate fight for survival, spiraling inexorably towards its destruction.

There are plenty of compelling reasons to play as the enemies of mankind:

Eldar
You're the shattered remnants of a once-proud civilisation, furiously raging against the dying of the light. Take up your arms to fight for your species on the very brink of destruction.

Dark Eldar
You're the other half of the Eldar duality, and another shattered remnant. However, while the Craftworlders have struggled, you have thrived in the chaos following the Fall. Commorragh heaves with the clone populace of the Dark Eldar, and the hunger that gnaws at your soul drives you forth reaving and raiding into realspace. Take up your arms simply because it's fun to torture the slower races of the galaxy, although the glee with which you visit this slaughter hides a subtle hint of desperation.

Tau
You're basically the least nasty major race in the 40k universe (in that you don't outright purge other alien species without a half-decent reason to first), and your youthful empire is on the rise while all around you slip steadily into decay. Take up your arms and fight for the greater good of your people (or what the ethereals tell you is the greater good at least).

Orks
You're an out-of-control doomsday weapon unleashed untold aeons ago that's still rumbling through the galaxy. Your entire species lives for warfare. It's what you were created to do. Take up you arms because it's fun to krump 'umies

Chaos
You're the grizzled veterans of a war that's been raging for the last 10,000 years. Whether you're driven forwards by lust for power, religious fervour, simple sowing chaos (lower-case 'c')wherever you tread, the manipulation of lovecraftian gods, or bitter hatred towards the Imperium that betrayed you, you're united with the others of your warband in a struggle against the corpse-emperor of mankind. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is another man's religious zealot. Take up your arms because the Imperium betrays all those it feeds into the meat-grinder, and at least the Ruinous Powers reward their faithful.

Tyranids
You're an extra-galactic locust plague that's theorised to have devoured dozens of galaxies before this. The chittering swarms form one, far larger macro-organism, descending upon entire sectors of the galaxy, consuming all in its wake. Take up your arms (literally in this case), for the hunger of the Great Devourer knows no bounds.

Necrons
(I'll let someone who actually likes the new Necron fluff explain why they fight because I have real difficulty with it)

I like the effort but none of that addresses my main thing here which is all he factions other than the Imperium never really win or do anything but lose and make the Imperium look good. I mean none of them ever really win wars of any sort against the Imperium when it counts. And all the strongest everything is from the Imperium.

 Anemone wrote:
Stuff that 'could' happen. None of this has happened. This doesn't change that Ghazghkull has never won a serious engagement against the Imperium. Seriously I don't see how you're providing any evidence against that claim of mine. This is an unrelated note about 'hypothetical future events' which have not occurred.

oh it will happen its a foregone conclusion, right now Ghazghkull is just toying with the Imperium, he wants the endless waaagh that never ends why do you think he let Yarrick go ?

right now the game is building up to a universal war that will forever change the Imperium that survives, if any?

But the Imperium does lose. But I guess what I'm gathering is, they don't lose everything. Not trying to be a dick, I guess that's just how I'm reading what you're saying.



The Tau want to expand and create an Empire. As it stands, the Imperium could wipe them out, but they have other things to worry about. The one Crusade that they did send was halted in its tracks. The Tau won that war.

Does the Imperium win a lot? Well, yeah. So do the Yankees. And everyone hates them. I guess it's a different way of looking at things.

And just to point out, the Empire won all the time. The only time the "good guys" didn't win, we got Age of Sigmar.

@Sgt_Smudge: No, it isn't, beating named characters (like the Beast was beaten, like Huron was beaten, like Eldrad was beaten, like Ghazghkull was beaten, like the Swarmlord was beaten) and named factions (like Ghazghkull's Waaagh!!! was beaten, like the Red Waaagh!!! was beaten, like Ulthwe was beaten, like Alaitoc was beaten, like the Sautehk Dynasty was beaten, like Behemoth and Kraken were beaten, like Biel-Tan was beaten) those are victories in a story.

You're using a bland and meaningless phrase 'costs and sacrifice' to replace the fact that the Imperium never loses major wars or suffers major consequences whilst the other factions do.

Ghazghkull has beaten the Imperium once, that's it, and both his major attacks on the Imperium he has lost.

Also Damocles was described by canon itself as completely negligible to the Imperium. If you think the Tau wining that battle equates to the Imperium's records of victory against all other factions in the setting then I don't know what to say.

 Anemone wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge:

Also Damocles was described by canon itself as completely negligible to the Imperium. If you think the Tau wining that battle equates to the Imperium's records of victory against all other factions in the setting then I don't know what to say.

okay, but then by that logic...the only way for the Imperium to "lose" is for 40K to end.

 Anemone wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge: No, it isn't, beating named characters (like the Beast was beaten, like Huron was beaten, like Eldrad was beaten, like Ghazghkull was beaten, like the Swarmlord was beaten) and named factions (like Ghazghkull's Waaagh!!! was beaten, like the Red Waaagh!!! was beaten, like Ulthwe was beaten, like Alaitoc was beaten, like the Sautehk Dynasty was beaten, like Behemoth and Kraken were beaten, like Biel-Tan was beaten) those are victories in a story.

You're using a bland and meaningless phrase 'costs and sacrifice' to replace the fact that the Imperium never loses major wars or suffers major consequences whilst the other factions do.

Ghazghkull has beaten the Imperium once, that's it, and both his major attacks on the Imperium he has lost.

Also Damocles was described by canon itself as completely negligible to the Imperium. If you think the Tau wining that battle equates to the Imperium's records of victory against all other factions in the setting then I don't know what to say.

and yet most of those entities you said were beaten are still around and still causing issues, already Hive Fleet Kraken is showing up in the Davros sector and Ghazghkull has the Imperium shaking in its boots and shall I continue? the Imperium may have won some battles but they are far from winning the wars.

Man you guys type so much it's hard to keep up

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Ithe best spaceships are human

Hahahaha.

*Looks over at Necron fleet*

Hahahaha.

Pretty sure it's been stated the Imperium has the strongest fleet. Do the Necron have anything to compare to Emperor battleships, or the Rock, or Phalanx? Also didn't the Black Templar fleet beat Imotehk's or something?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
The Imperium won the 2nd war. Please name these other victories Ghazghkull has had, if he's so successful against the Imperium as you are implying then I am sure you have many examples of his great victories against the Imperium. I can't wait to hear them.

Forcing the Imperium to react and feed valuable men into the meat grinder is a victory in and of itself.

By the very virtue of the Imperium mobilising so many troops against Armageddon, the Damocles Gulf war was more successful for the Tau, and various other regions became undefended. If the Imperium stop feeding men into Armageddon, the orks are a stone's throw away from Terra itself.
Not to mention that Gork and Mork have actively imbued Ghazghkull with the power of the Waaagh!. That's got to count for something.
Ghazghkull might not have empowered himself or the orks, but he has weakened the Imperium. And against something so big, so monolithic, what victory would last against them? Take a world? The Imperium will feed troops into it until your land is covered in corpses. Kill a leader? You've just made them angrier.

Force them to keep feeding troops into an unending battle? That is victory.

The Imperium will not be brought to it's knees by a hammerblow. It will be by a thousand cuts, and not healing those wounds.

Yes, the third war is ongoing, so what's your point? He still hasn't won a single meaningful victory. Ghazghkull's a loser, just like Abaddon and every other 'threat' to the Imperium.

They are legitimate threats, because they know how to bleed the Imperium to death. Horus tried the hammerblow. Horus failed. Abaddon, Ghazghkull, Eldrad, indirectly the Tyranids and Tau - they are slowly killing the Imperium.

I would also love to hear more about these costs, what worlds have been lost due to the cost of Armageddon? What battles has the Imperium lost due to the cost of Armageddon? Because a cost isn't a cost if it isn't actually costing you anything (naturally).

Damocles Gulf, by association. I'm sure it pretty much says that, because of Armageddon, the Imperium were unable to dedicate more troops. It forced them to ignite the Gulf, losing it to both parties.

It has also cost the lives and war materiel of unknowable numbers, which the Imperium thrives on.

Yeah but none of that actually results in anything. The imperium doesn lost, you just put adjectives on it. I'm sorry but just strapping 'it cost a lot of manpower' isn't comparable to actually losing. Everything costs a lot of manpower in 40k, it's not a bar for winning or losing at all.

 Lusall wrote:
But the Imperium does lose. But I guess what I'm gathering is, they don't lose everything. Not trying to be a dick, I guess that's just how I'm reading what you're saying.

The Tau want to expand and create an Empire. As it stands, the Imperium could wipe them out, but they have other things to worry about. The one Crusade that they did send was halted in its tracks. The Tau won that war.

Does the Imperium win a lot? Well, yeah. So do the Yankees. And everyone hates them. I guess it's a different way of looking at things.

And just to point out, the Empire won all the time. The only time the "good guys" didn't win, we got Age of Sigmar.

I did say in my last post it doesn't need to be 'stomped flat' didn't I? Think you're being a little unfair assuming something so extreme.

Also, sorry, but I must have just missed it. I read through he major wars in the fluff and so far as I could tell the Imperium wins all the major wars.

Also, haha, I do like that the Tau's thing is 'we don't matter at all, forget about us' that's a great way to make someone have fun with a faction. Thank goodness Fantasy didn't have that.

 Lusall wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge:

Also Damocles was described by canon itself as completely negligible to the Imperium. If you think the Tau wining that battle equates to the Imperium's records of victory against all other factions in the setting then I don't know what to say.

okay, but then by that logic...the only way for the Imperium to "lose" is for 40K to end.

How? Just how do you arrive at that conclusion?

Would the Space Wolves losing Sanctus Reach have meant 40k was over? Would Alaitoc destroying the Invaders Chapter the same way the Invaders Chapter wiped out Idharae have meant 40k ends? How do you arrive at the conclusion that the Imperium suffering comparable losses to the other factions (which are all still around) would mean 40k ends? Just how?

@Asterios: What Wars did they lose? Last I checked they won the 1st and 2nd Tyrannic War, the 1st and 2nd Wars for Armageddon, the Horus Heresy, the War of the Beast, seriously what are these enormous wars they're losing?

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Man you guys type so much it's hard to keep up

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Ithe best spaceships are human

Hahahaha.

*Looks over at Necron fleet*

Hahahaha.

Pretty sure it's been stated the Imperium has the strongest fleet. Do the Necron have anything to compare to Emperor battleships, or the Rock, or Phalanx? Also didn't the Black Templar fleet beat Imotehk's or something?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
The Imperium won the 2nd war. Please name these other victories Ghazghkull has had, if he's so successful against the Imperium as you are implying then I am sure you have many examples of his great victories against the Imperium. I can't wait to hear them.

Forcing the Imperium to react and feed valuable men into the meat grinder is a victory in and of itself.

By the very virtue of the Imperium mobilising so many troops against Armageddon, the Damocles Gulf war was more successful for the Tau, and various other regions became undefended. If the Imperium stop feeding men into Armageddon, the orks are a stone's throw away from Terra itself.
Not to mention that Gork and Mork have actively imbued Ghazghkull with the power of the Waaagh!. That's got to count for something.
Ghazghkull might not have empowered himself or the orks, but he has weakened the Imperium. And against something so big, so monolithic, what victory would last against them? Take a world? The Imperium will feed troops into it until your land is covered in corpses. Kill a leader? You've just made them angrier.

Force them to keep feeding troops into an unending battle? That is victory.

The Imperium will not be brought to it's knees by a hammerblow. It will be by a thousand cuts, and not healing those wounds.

Yes, the third war is ongoing, so what's your point? He still hasn't won a single meaningful victory. Ghazghkull's a loser, just like Abaddon and every other 'threat' to the Imperium.

They are legitimate threats, because they know how to bleed the Imperium to death. Horus tried the hammerblow. Horus failed. Abaddon, Ghazghkull, Eldrad, indirectly the Tyranids and Tau - they are slowly killing the Imperium.

I would also love to hear more about these costs, what worlds have been lost due to the cost of Armageddon? What battles has the Imperium lost due to the cost of Armageddon? Because a cost isn't a cost if it isn't actually costing you anything (naturally).

Damocles Gulf, by association. I'm sure it pretty much says that, because of Armageddon, the Imperium were unable to dedicate more troops. It forced them to ignite the Gulf, losing it to both parties.

It has also cost the lives and war materiel of unknowable numbers, which the Imperium thrives on.

Yeah but none of that actually results in anything. The imperium doesn lost, you just put adjectives on it. I'm sorry but just strapping 'it cost a lot of manpower' isn't comparable to actually losing. Everything costs a lot of manpower in 40k, it's not a bar for winning or losing at all.

 Lusall wrote:
But the Imperium does lose. But I guess what I'm gathering is, they don't lose everything. Not trying to be a dick, I guess that's just how I'm reading what you're saying.

The Tau want to expand and create an Empire. As it stands, the Imperium could wipe them out, but they have other things to worry about. The one Crusade that they did send was halted in its tracks. The Tau won that war.

Does the Imperium win a lot? Well, yeah. So do the Yankees. And everyone hates them. I guess it's a different way of looking at things.

And just to point out, the Empire won all the time. The only time the "good guys" didn't win, we got Age of Sigmar.

I did say in my last post it doesn't need to be 'stomped flat' didn't I? Think you're being a little unfair assuming something so extreme.

Also, sorry, but I must have just missed it. I read through he major wars in the fluff and so far as I could tell the Imperium wins all the major wars.

Also, haha, I do like that the Tau's thing is 'we don't matter at all, forget about us' that's a great way to make someone have fun with a faction. Thank goodness Fantasy didn't have that.

I mean...Wood Elves were that way. lol And Beastmen were too to a certain extent. They had one glorious moment in the sun. The thing is, as a Tau player, you're building the new Tau Empire. So long as the Imperium can't bring everything it has against you (it can't do that to anyone since it's beset on all sides), it can't destroy you. Slowly but surely, the Tau are pushing their borders out and the Imperium's are shrinking.

Don't take my comment as an insult...it wasn't intended that way. I'm just trying to figure out what you are looking for in the fluff. Maybe the fluff just isn't your thing, and that's okay! I personally like that the Imperium is a giant evil empire, but it's the only thing that keeps humanity alive.

Rocket Scientist wrote:I didn't actually mean librarians. I meant that the Emperor, shamans of Old Terra, Primachs, Malcador and such are all stronger than any Eldar ever. Not to mention human Alpha level Psykers can rip battle Titans in half which Eldrad can't even do. Point is the Eldar are said to be the most psychic race, but they clearly aren't. Humans clearly are. The top five strongest Psykers in the galaxy are all clearly human, I don't think Eldar even get into the top ten.

To be fair, the reason that the Eldar pyskers are seen as ineffectual is that their powers are:

1. Restrained, to avoid Slaanesh, whereas Imperial ones risk the Warp for more often, or just lack training.
2. Reserved for prognostication and divination, not warfare and direct destruction, like the human psykers.
3. Eldar generally are more psychically attuned, but not necessarily psychic, ie, able to manifest powers.
4. Humans are far more plentiful, so the odds of a stronger human psyker is higher than the odds of an Eldar one.

 Anemone wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge: No, it isn't, beating named characters (like the Beast was beaten, like Huron was beaten, like Eldrad was beaten, like Ghazghkull was beaten, like the Swarmlord was beaten) and named factions (like Ghazghkull's Waaagh!!! was beaten, like the Red Waaagh!!! was beaten, like Ulthwe was beaten, like Alaitoc was beaten, like the Sautehk Dynasty was beaten, like Behemoth and Kraken were beaten, like Biel-Tan was beaten) those are victories in a story.

But the story isn't about those named characters. It's about the factions. The Imperium's trait is that of the lumbering giant, bleeding from a million cuts and wounds. Not being smashed by another giant. Therefore, victories DON'T have to be against named factions to count.

I'm seeing the picture painted as a whole, not the foreground that you see.

You're using a bland and meaningless phrase 'costs and sacrifice' to replace the fact that the Imperium never loses major wars or suffers major consequences whilst the other factions do.

I personally think you're attempting to decredit my argument by using subjective terms such as "bland and meaningless". My points have meaning.

Ghazghkull has beaten the Imperium once, that's it, and both his major attacks on the Imperium he has lost.

His attacks opened the way to victory for other forces, and as I said, were a victory in that they distracted the Imperium, bleeding it dry.

Also Damocles was described by canon itself as completely negligible to the Imperium. If you think the Tau wining that battle equates to the Imperium's records of victory against all other factions in the setting then I don't know what to say.

Damocles Gulf, again, drew more Imperial troops into a long conflict, which I class as a win against the Imperium. It spelled the death of a named character, something you seem to think is the hallmark of a victory.
I also don't know what to say if you'll just use buzzwords like "bland and meaningless" to attempt to ignore arguments.