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With the removal of templates,units will be clumped together now, so a lot more tablespace actually.

My Guess
All Charges are resolved in a separate step
All Fast Attacks are resolved in a separate step

Player2 may choose to activate a combat that his side has not done an action

Player1 may choose to activate a combat that his side has not done an action.


Player 1 Charged into Guardsman successfully, he piled in 3" to catch a Heavy Weapons Team

Player 2 decides instead of striking back, to retreat the Heavy Weapons team

Player 1 has no models that has yet to activate.

Player 2 decides to strike back since he has Yarrick in the squad!

Lobukia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

You don't need spacing... no templates

nordsturmking wrote:

Could be the case. But remember templates are gone so you can pack your models really tight together.

While true in some respects, the realities of the table between terrain, model count, need for bubblewrap, etc will still be a limiting factor. If you plop down an IG army with 90 models, including a dozen or more big heavy weapons teams, your space to make ensure no CC consolidation bubbles exist is going to be basically nonexistent.

To say nothing of how silly tables look with combat units of infantry clumped up shoulder to shoulder all the time

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

You don't need spacing... no templates

nordsturmking wrote:

Could be the case. But remember templates are gone so you can pack your models really tight together.

While true in some respects, the realities of the table between terrain, model count, need for bubblewrap, etc will still be a limiting factor. If you plop down an IG army with 90 models, including a dozen or more big heavy weapons teams, your space to make ensure no CC consolidation bubbles exist is going to be basically nonexistent.

To say nothing of how silly tables look with combat units of infantry clumped up shoulder to shoulder all the time

So basically, you have to choice between keeping your units together to benefit of buffs, support and bubbles, or separate them to evite the units charging you from taking into a meele battle more units... I don't think thats a bad thing. They are both valid tactical choices.
And, to be honest, I don't know if assault units will be capable of sustain 2-3 units of Guardsmen hitting them in the head with fixed to hit rolls. So maybe if they charge more than one unit of infantry guardsmen, they can bite more that they can chew.

Well, my point really is that there isn't a choice, with that many models they just go wherever they can, particularly with a relatively static horde army like IG infantry.

There's a reason infantry IG armies didnt show well in editions with consolidation into new combats allowed. It's just not possible to clear adequate space.

Fixed to hit rolls wont make much of a difference anyway unless the IG are hitting on 3's now or something, if it's 4's then unless the opponent was weapon skill 7+ before, therr wont be any change.

Vaktathi:

It's not a consolidation move. It's a pile in move.

At the risk of sounding alarmist, this makes me think I'm not gonna be playing my Cult Mech or Skitarii units very often, as assault-heavy armies are already my bane. Most of the Cult Mech units melee like wet noodles, and the actually melee useful units are in no way equal to other armies' melee strengths.

 Traditio wrote:
Vaktathi:

It's not a consolidation move. It's a pile in move.

I just slipped back into the old term. The effect is much the same however.

ashmanonar wrote:
At the risk of sounding alarmist, this makes me think I'm not gonna be playing my Cult Mech or Skitarii units very often, as assault-heavy armies are already my bane. Most of the Cult Mech units melee like wet noodles, and the actually melee useful units are in no way equal to other armies' melee strengths.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions without seeing rules. Electro-priest weapons might get a major buff, and I would imagine Ruststalkers will get some crazy movement rules.

Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn.

Now the Unit of Space Marines have the option of wussing out at the cost of their shooting phase or charging extra units into the fray, or just hanging about in melee hoping they roll first activation.

On the flip-side if I charge two squads of TWC into the first squad of Marines, kill them with the first unit and use the second unit of TWCs 3" free move to tag a nearby unit of enemy Space Marines the fighting continues?

 Bobthehero wrote:
*stuff*

Taking a quick glance at their army list, there is the aforementioned Death Riders, but there's also Engineers. Since sweeping advance seems to be gone, a +4 armor save and a decent LD means they can stick into an assault against non-elite assault units and drag them down. Plus that Hades drill sounds like FUN(tm).

That said, we don't know how assault and non-walker vehicles work now. So for all we know the answer could be "a Leman Russ squadron"

Another though with assault is that, since the pile in is compulsory, it might be possible to have "bully" units that you stick close to body guard your squishier units, so that assault units have to move to the other flank to avoid dragging in a unit they don't want to fight.

Edit

Dakka Wolf wrote:Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn. "

You're not reading it right, actually. Pile in comes first, which means that if those three thunderwolves' nearest models are the original squad and I presume they still have to keep cohension, they can't move into another squad unless it's closer (at which point mutli-assaulting would be preferable)

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn.

Incorrect. You pile in when you're activated, not after the combat's been resolved.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
*stuff*

Taking a quick glance at their army list, there is the aforementioned Death Riders, but there's also Engineers. Since sweeping advance seems to be gone, a +4 armor save and a decent LD means they can stick into an assault against non-elite assault units and drag them down. Plus that Hades drill sounds like FUN(tm).

It's a miracle when my Engineers last more than the turn they charge, thus letting my enemy consolidate towards my gunline. The Drill was usually taken out before it could do much, because its a bit hard to get saturation with it.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn.

Incorrect. You pile in when you're activated, not after the combat's been resolved.

Consolidation my arse.
That means cheap sacrifices can still block a melee unit's paths as easily as they could in 7th, easier now that flame templates and blast markers are gone.

Vaktathi wrote:I just slipped back into the old term. The effect is much the same however.

The effect is completely different. It's the difference between progressive motion and lateral motion.

Thus the reason GW keeps saying: "Waves. Waves. PUT YOUR UNITS IN WAVES. Did we mention that WAVES are a good idea?"

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

 Traditio wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I just slipped back into the old term. The effect is much the same however.

The effect is completely different. It's the difference between progressive motion and lateral motion.

Thus the reason GW keeps saying: "Waves. Waves. PUT YOUR UNITS IN WAVES. Did we mention that WAVES are a good idea?"

That's a rather small difference that often will be irrelevant or easily worked around, and unless the deployment zones are radically changing, when you have a high model count army, you're going to have to spread out, you can only stack units so deep before you run out of room, especially stuff with IG heavy weapons team bases. Particularly if I'm not spending 40 minutes at the start of the game carefully deploying everything in neat ordered rows with measured spacing and whatnot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

we can hope, but if they follow the trend of every codex they have ever had, I would be doubtful. Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

We can hope though.

ashmanonar wrote:
At the risk of sounding alarmist, this makes me think I'm not gonna be playing my Cult Mech or Skitarii units very often, as assault-heavy armies are already my bane. Most of the Cult Mech units melee like wet noodles, and the actually melee useful units are in no way equal to other armies' melee strengths.

I was literally laugh out loud when i read the noodles part. I imagine a guy holding a bunch of wet noodles trying to defend himself. Man this is too funny. I almost pissed in the pants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

GW said they had people play test the game a lot. That makes me optimistic and i think the age of the broken stuff is almost over.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

Thats the problem with basically every codex out there. Even the "OMG OP" factions like Eldar, Tau, Marines and Daemons, what its OP is really 3-4 units or combos. The other 80% of the codex is normally from mediocre to totally useless.
A better internal balance will be a nice welcome in 8th edition if they achieve that.

PD: Vespids

Well the being able to pull units into combat rule.. can be useful for CC units.. that don't actually want to wipe out a unit during their turn, just to be shot at the following.. well potentially cop less shots.. with the disengage rules

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

There have never been true dark days for eldar. Eldar currently have a host of undercosted units that need nerfs or price increases.

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

There have never been true dark days for eldar. Eldar currently have a host of undercosted units that need nerfs or price increases.

Hahahaha.... No.

Hahahaha.. yes. You sound very much like someone who wants easy wins with little effort. Because that's what the current Eldar codex is all about. The Eldar are currently defined by their overpowered units. What few underpowered units they have are very unimportant.

There is a reason that eldar tournament appearance over the last few years has risen to rival the combined flavors of marines, and it ain't cause they're weak.

(Reminds me of those peeps that say the riptide is fine and somehow don't notice the 3-5 riptides in every other tournament list.)

The laughing doesn't bolster your argument, either. It's a cheap attempt to dismiss my position when all the evidence is stacked against you.

Basic Eldar is one of the few lists that can compete with the Superfriends lists if I remember right?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Basic Eldar is one of the few lists that can compete with the Superfriends lists if I remember right?

Aye. Most armies at events are crazy combos of allies or ridiculous formations. Eldar? They just bring a CAD.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Basic Eldar is one of the few lists that can compete with the Superfriends lists if I remember right?

Yes, it is. Tournaments that try any kind of comp or formation restrictions just hand the whole thing to Eldar, since they have the most broken troop the game has ever seen. And hopefully will ever see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm HOPING the new GW regime sees the wisdom of making every model they produce at least fieldable.

 Rippy wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

The whole thing about Harlequins is that they're glass cannons, and even then only in close combat! They're the most Eldar of the Aeldari. I actually dislike Craftworlds because they are very tough, with great firepower, high speed, and powerful guns, backed up by units that can be phenomenal in close combat too (oh, and forgot that they have the best psykers in the galaxy). Harlequins only take the speed and close combat bits (and they got weird psychic powers; not necessarily the best psykers by any means, just very different psychic abilities).

So, yeah, speed. That's them. Striking first in combat is as much their thing as it is a Genestealer's, a Dark Eldar Archon's, or a Daemon Prince's.