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Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if 9 points is fair for a boltgun platform; how come 13 pts is unfair with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and +1 WS, +1Str, +1T, more weapon options (plasma guns!)?


Thats what i am not seeing either - although he is then looking at a pt reduction for Sororitas.

To be fair I am just not experienced enough with the game to reset balance in this way but I think I might have reacted better with a different phrasing of the OP and not referencing Elite armies at all.

Doubling the wounds of the Marine armies in particular could be extremely powerful - especially if other similar forces are not equally blessed.




"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if 9 points is fair for a boltgun platform; how come 13 pts is unfair with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and +1 WS, +1Str, +1T, more weapon options (plasma guns!)?

Sister's have been the hardest to make proposals for since they're so under provisioned by the index/codex. As far as revisions go, I feel like a +1T would do them more justice than a +1W, so they shoot like a scout, save like a marine, but melee like a guardsmen as portrayed by their WS 3+. In terms of given system that sisters operate in, sisters seem like they're supposed to be half AM, half SM where it's kind of like SM's with orders, but currently they are just carapace armor veterans with bolters.

Again, while I do refer to point costs as the basis for my proposal here and there, the primary aim of this proposal is to how to adjust the characteristics to better reflect their point cost, rather than adjusting points for what they're worth.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 18:37:59


 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 skchsan wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if 9 points is fair for a boltgun platform; how come 13 pts is unfair with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and +1 WS, +1Str, +1T, more weapon options (plasma guns!)?

Sister's have been the hardest to make proposals for since they're so under provisioned by the index/codex. As far as revisions go, I feel like a +1T would do them more justice than a +1W, so they shoot like a scout, save like a marine, but melee like a guardsmen as portrayed by their WS 3+. In terms of given stats, sisters seem like they're supposed to be the middle ground between a MEQ and a GEQ, but currently they are just carapace armor veterans with bolters.

Again, while I do refer to point costs as the basis for my proposal here and there, the primary aim of this proposal is to how to adjust the characteristics to better reflect their point cost, rather than adjusting points for what they're worth.


Ok a little confused here - normal Sororitas have WS 4+ like guardsmen, Celestians and Seraphim have WS 3+ but they are 11pts a model. If you add 1 W to a tac Marine at 13pts then you look at a Celestain (even with the +1 T) at 11pts

The Tac marine gets +1W, +1S, Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, more wepaon options, plenty of strategems

The Celestain gets +1A (at str 3) amd 6++

Sisters are supposed to be at the pinancle of non-enchanced humans - so whereas they are not Astartes or Skitarii or Orgryns, they are only matched by Scions in terms of training but are also blessed with power armour and blessed by the Emperor (sheild fo Faith) In actual fact i think their current stat line reflects them well.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if 9 points is fair for a boltgun platform; how come 13 pts is unfair with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and +1 WS, +1Str, +1T, more weapon options (plasma guns!)?


Because most of those differences don't matter. Weapon options super don't matter because they make them cost even more.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if 9 points is fair for a boltgun platform; how come 13 pts is unfair with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and +1 WS, +1Str, +1T, more weapon options (plasma guns!)?


Because most of those differences don't matter. Weapon options super don't matter because they make them cost even more.


So they should be free? Because they don't matter?

You just assert that certain things "never matter" and then get those things for free?

Well, in that case, the IG statline of Str 3, Ld 6, and WS 4+ don't matter so they should be 1-2ppm at most.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





But what fluff reason do Sisters have to be T4? And if you want balance over fluff, why not play chess?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if 9 points is fair for a boltgun platform; how come 13 pts is unfair with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and +1 WS, +1Str, +1T, more weapon options (plasma guns!)?


Because most of those differences don't matter. Weapon options super don't matter because they make them cost even more.


So they should be free? Because they don't matter?

You just assert that certain things "never matter" and then get those things for free?

Well, in that case, the IG statline of Str 3, Ld 6, and WS 4+ don't matter so they should be 1-2ppm at most.


Not free, but not +4 ppm. As I've stated 11 ppm, or +2 is more fair in how 8th ed works. And most of that is the +1 T. But listing non-free weapon options as a reason to cost more is fallacious for sure.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:03:16


 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if 9 points is fair for a boltgun platform; how come 13 pts is unfair with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, and +1 WS, +1Str, +1T, more weapon options (plasma guns!)?


Because most of those differences don't matter. Weapon options super don't matter because they make them cost even more.


So they should be free? Because they don't matter?

You just assert that certain things "never matter" and then get those things for free?

Well, in that case, the IG statline of Str 3, Ld 6, and WS 4+ don't matter so they should be 1-2ppm at most.


Currently as the game stands, unless you pay for premium melee weapons, all the melee stats are simply extra lasgun/bolter shot at melee.

Again, as far as weapon options go, especially the ones worth paying for, they come at an additional cost. Think of it as why AM powerfists cost less than SM powerfists - because it performs at a lesser degree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
But what fluff reason do Sisters have to be T4? And if you want balance over fluff, why not play chess?
Yeah, realized justifying sisters is starting to go off on a tangent and going nowhere productive. Lets remain within the boundaries of "major" factions for now, yeah?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:03:57


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Bharring wrote:
But what fluff reason do Sisters have to be T4? And if you want balance over fluff, why not play chess?


Hyperbole. And there's always starcraft. Nowhere in the fluff does it say "BA can't win a battle against most other factions in the universe", but this was true for 6th and 7th. Terminators have been unusable crap for two decades, but never saw it in the fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:12:43


 
   
Made in us
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Falls Church, VA

Wait are Sororitas not a major faction?

Also, 11PPM for Sororitas buys you +1 Attack and WS 3+.

I would be okay with 11PPM marines if they replaced ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics with the once-per-turn-regardless-of-how-many-units-you-have Act of Faith, went down to T3 and S3 but got one extra attack.

As it stands, trading 1 CC attack for 1 toughness is an obvious choice, without even taking into account the morale re-roll and chapter tactics. So 11PPM is out of the question, IMO, unless you make Sororitas Celestians cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
But what fluff reason do Sisters have to be T4? And if you want balance over fluff, why not play chess?


Hyperbole. And there's always starcraft.


I don't want balance over fluff. I want it explained to me why Marines should get WAAAAAAYYYY better stats than Celestians, and better special rules, for the same price.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:12:43


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




They're not WAAAY better stats. They're stats I would largely not pay for in a system where I could construct my own units.

Unless you are raven guard, chapter tactics are a joke. ATSKNF is also a joke. It's all about killing at range. That's it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:15:13


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

So 33% better strength, 33% better toughness, re-roll morale, and ignores cover / re-roll for the special weapon to hit and wound / -1 to hit >12" / being able to fall back and shoot

are all worth exactly the same as not having those things at all?

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The -1 to hit is the only chapter tactic worth discussing. The others are trash.

Strength doesn't matter. Free.
Toughness matters somewhat. +1/2 pts
Reroll morale. Free, as it is irrelevant
Most chapter tactics. Trash. RG tactic should probably make their units cost more, but this is GW. Altioc Eldar should cost considerably more, but don't.

Want those stats to matter? Make shooting units cost more or less lethal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:22:08


 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Yeah, realized justifying sisters is starting to go off on a tangent and going nowhere productive. Lets remain within the boundaries of "major" factions for now, yeah?


Bit Sororitas and Astartes are easy to compare becuase they have so many simularities - armour, base weapons, balastic accuracy, but are not as tough or strong.
They're not WAAAY better stats. They're stats I would largely not pay for in a system where I could construct my own units.


That would be a bad bad thing for balance would it not. People getting better stuff for no difference in pts?

Unless you are raven guard, chapter tactics are a joke. ATSKNF is also a joke. It's all about killing at range. That's it


As others have said - there are good CT's especially if you are an Index army and don't have them.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I never envied CT as a BA player. I just envied the cost adjustments. CT are largely crap. Only one helps vs mass shooting, which is what matters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:24:33


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel, if you think the difference between T3 and T4 alone is worth only half a point, I'll tell you to try playing 45 point Guardsmen squads who are T4 and get back to me.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I meant +1 or +2.

The reality is that marines could be Str 12, with little effect on how they perform on the table top. Low numbers of attacks with no AP are not a threat no matter the strength value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:28:28


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel732 wrote:
I meant +1 or +2.

The reality is that marines could be Str 12, with little effect on how they perform on the table top. Low numbers of attacks with no AP are not a threat no matter the strength value.


You realize +1 point is 12ppm and +2 is 13 ppm, right?

Essentially exactly where they are, or at least within <10%.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Maybe try 12 ppm, then. They do not perform like 13 ppm models. ESPECIALLY against the IG. And Tyranids.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:30:55


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe try 12 ppm, then. They do not perform like 13 ppm models.


I'd be okay with 12ppm tactical marines.

After all, that frees up ~0 points in most SM lists, since they don't use tacticals at all.

But 12PPM I could see, especially if they gave up ASTNKF and turned it into a Warlord Trait option like Sororitas have.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




ASTKNF is truly useless in 8th, and as such should be free. But sure, take it away. Won't be missed. Just like in 6/7th, my guys are dying to shooting, not failing morale.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:33:01


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel732 wrote:
ASTKNF is truly useless in 8th, and as such should be free. But sure, take it away. Won't be missed. Just like in 6/7th, my guys are dying to shooting, not failing morale.


I'll see what the local SM players say to 12ppm marines without ATSKNF.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Also, try 13 ppm ASM with jump packs instead of 16 ppm. They're actually usable. Take away ATSKNF as well. No one cares.
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





So then what differentiates a GEQ and MEQ to justify the 2.5x~3x base cost?

Marines only have +1WS, +1BS, +1T, +1S, and +2 sv

Are they really worth that much more where the only real difference those stats make is how S3 affects T4's?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Also, try 13 ppm ASM with jump packs instead of 16 ppm. They're actually usable. Take away ATSKNF as well. No one cares.


Why 13 and not 15? If we're only taking away 1ppm for tacs, why not 1ppm with ASM? Unless you think jump packs are overcosted...

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Because jump packs on ASM are overcosted they are delivering a paltry amount of killing power. Even 130 pts for 10 of these guys is a super stretch to me. They're REALLY bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:43:22


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 skchsan wrote:
So then what differentiates a GEQ and MEQ to justify the 2.5x~3x base cost?

Marines only have +1WS, +1BS, +1T, +1S, and +2 sv

Are they really worth that much more where the only real difference those stats make is how S3 affects T4's?


Well let's look at it with Sisters as a middle step.

Space Marine over a Sister is: 2 Special Rules (3 with Combat Squads but that's derpy), +1T, +1WS, +1STR; so if we go with 13ppm then that's +4 points for 2 special rules and 3 stats. Call ATSKNF the same as acts of faith, and it's +1 point per stat and special rule.

Sororitas are 9ppm, and over guard have +2 save, +1 Ld, Acts of Faith, and +1BS. By the same logic (1ppm per stat point and special rule), then guardsmen should be 5ppm cheaper - or 4ppm

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:45:20


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Guardsmen are 5ppm or 6ppm models in practice, though. That's one reason IG are so incredibly hard to beat. The other is access to so much cheap ignore LoS. In 8th, 5 ppm guardsmen and 12 ppm marines sound about right, actually. Would make it more challenging for the IG to table the marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:46:35


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen are 5ppm or 6ppm models in practice, though. That's one reason IG are so incredibly hard to beat. The other is access to so much cheap ignore LoS. In 8th, 5 ppm guardsmen and 12 ppm marines sound about right, actually. Would make it more challenging for the IG to table the marines.


This is disingenuous. I thought you were all about math, and now you're using table-top performance instead of math to price your troops.

Which is it?

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
So then what differentiates a GEQ and MEQ to justify the 2.5x~3x base cost?

Marines only have +1WS, +1BS, +1T, +1S, and +2 sv

Are they really worth that much more where the only real difference those stats make is how S3 affects T4's?


Well let's look at it with Sisters as a middle step.

Space Marine over a Sister is: 2 Special Rules (3 with Combat Squads but that's derpy), +1T, +1WS, +1STR; so if we go with 13ppm then that's +4 points for 2 special rules and 3 stats. Call ATSKNF the same as acts of faith, and it's +1 point per stat and special rule.

Sororitas are 9ppm, and over guard have +2 save, +1 Ld, Acts of Faith, and +1BS. By the same logic (1ppm per stat point and special rule), then guardsmen should be 5ppm cheaper - or 4ppm

But what about orders? And AM's regimental doctrines?
   
 
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