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Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





EDIT:
Many of you have voiced your opinion on how the notion of adjusting units on their preconceived notion of being "elite" is not very well suited and biased towards marines only.

Going forward, this will be a discussion regarding adjustment to wounds & toughness of currently overpriced units to better reflect their point costs. The title of the post has been changed to better reflect the aim of this post.


Original Post:
I dont have the math on me, but what would be a result of increasing all "elite" armies' models' wounds by 1?

Is this going to be game breaking or a solution in the long run in terms of balancing issues?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 18:52:42


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




If you wanna bump up the cost a little, sure.

CaptainStabby wrote:
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 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Maryland, USA

Do you really expect people to track remainders for each squad in said armies?

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in us
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 Infantryman wrote:
Do you really expect people to track remainders for each squad in said armies?

M.


Well most of the competitive choices in elite armies already have 2W's anyways. I dont think it'll overly raise the book keeping.

Why does a single marines cost nearly 3 times a guardman when they dont perform nearly three times better?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/01 01:03:52


 
   
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Maryland, USA

 skchsan wrote:


Why does a single marines cost nearly 3 times a guardman when they dont perform nearly three times better?

Poor game design.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in ca
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






Oh snap!
But yeah there's a major difference in durability with having 2W, intercessors last a lot longer against other basic infantry where there's no ap but throw in say a crisis suit with 3 plasma guns and it's only a little bit better.
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





So, which ones are the "elite" armies? You can't make a suggestion without even saying fully what that suggestion is.

I also believe blanket changes like this would only make the game worse. You need to get into details, rebalancing units one at a time, or you're getting nowhere. Quick fixes are mostly unrealistic and rarely fix anything.

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I suppose elite armies can be defined as armies that have the least amount of models fieldable at average point games.

Cant speak for armies that dont yet have codex, but on avrage SM armies field average of 20~35 for competitive armies. AM's field about 50~70 models on average.
   
Made in ca
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A naked scout is 11 ppm. Is it fair to say an "elite" army is one where your cheapest troop option is over 10 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which i guess translates to marines and chaos marines.
Are they the only factions in the elite bracket?
Custodes, would they do any better with a fourth wound?
How about knights?
Necrons? I haven't even played against them and i feel like that's a bad idea...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/01 04:59:56


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






 skchsan wrote:
I suppose elite armies can be defined as armies that have the least amount of models fieldable at average point games.

Cant speak for armies that dont yet have codex, but on avrage SM armies field average of 20~35 for competitive armies. AM's field about 50~70 models on average.


20 - 35 models for 2000 points? Well there's your problem.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:

20 - 35 models for 2000 points? Well there's your problem.

Current flyer spam SM lists go for 7~13 models. Scout/tac/tac/guilliman goes for 36~40 models.

Even if you were to fill your list to the brim with scouts and bare minimum HQs, AM and horde lists can outnumber and outgun them with 3x the guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
A naked scout is 11 ppm. Is it fair to say an "elite" army is one where your cheapest troop option is over 10 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which i guess translates to marines and chaos marines.
Are they the only factions in the elite bracket?
Custodes, would they do any better with a fourth wound?
How about knights?
Necrons? I haven't even played against them and i feel like that's a bad idea...

I feel like armies like Eldar, DE, necron & AdMech are the middle ground armies that ends up with decent amount of models in a balanced, playable list. Tau is at a weird place right now imo. I feel like the New codex is going to shift some points around that battlesuits become more viable.

I think custodes and GKs will definitely be better off with extra wound. Leave the super heavies - the proposal is more for your non-vehicles to give them a bit more staying power to somewhat par up the wound pool a bit better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/01 06:40:37


 
   
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Italy

Naaah, just make shooting less effective. By nerfing overpowered units or giving them an appropriate cost.

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 fraser1191 wrote:
A naked scout is 11 ppm. Is it fair to say an "elite" army is one where your cheapest troop option is over 10 points?

A Harlequin player is 16ppm minimum. The most common loadout currently (embrace + fusion pistol) puts them at 30ppm.
I do consider Harlequins to be an elite army, but bumping them to 2W doesn't make much sense, fluffwise or gamewise.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Do remember certain bumps are stronger than others.

Going from 1 to 2 wounds doubles toughness vs standard anti-infantry weapons.

Going from 2 to 3 wounds doubles vs. 2 dmg weapons (plasma and autocannons mostly). Pretty strong for infantry with a save (termies and marines in cover).

Going 3 to 4 is less powerful. It means you gain double toughness vs damage 3 weaponry (mostly melee) and a 50% chance againgst D6 weaponry.

Raising wounds on anything else wont be feasible. Most characters are 5-6 wounds, keeping in one shot range for D6 weaponry (completely understandable).

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fresus wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
A naked scout is 11 ppm. Is it fair to say an "elite" army is one where your cheapest troop option is over 10 points?

A Harlequin player is 16ppm minimum. The most common loadout currently (embrace + fusion pistol) puts them at 30ppm.
I do consider Harlequins to be an elite army, but bumping them to 2W doesn't make much sense, fluffwise or gamewise.


That's a fair point.
I'm guessing when he says elite army he's directly referring to marines as it seems to be what people want, which is 2W marines.
I'll also admit I'm in that boat myself
   
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 skchsan wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

20 - 35 models for 2000 points? Well there's your problem.

Current flyer spam SM lists go for 7~13 models. Scout/tac/tac/guilliman goes for 36~40 models.


Sure, but those armies aren't exactly built around actual space marines. If you want them to feel more effective imo you have to bring more. If you only bring 20 guys and minimaly arm them, yeah, they're not going to be carrying the game for you.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





 Insectum7 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

20 - 35 models for 2000 points? Well there's your problem.

Current flyer spam SM lists go for 7~13 models. Scout/tac/tac/guilliman goes for 36~40 models.


Sure, but those armies aren't exactly built around actual space marines. If you want them to feel more effective imo you have to bring more. If you only bring 20 guys and minimaly arm them, yeah, they're not going to be carrying the game for you.

No, these lists are actually the top tier list in the current competitive meta. I'd appreciate it if you didnt drag your 'I-get-better-mileage-out-of-my-tac-squad' argument into this thread.

I understand you elect not to participate in competitive tournaments, but competitive meta is often the basis/reference we look to see how the balance is in the game.

And as evidenced in the competitive meta, space marines field FAR less models than any other armies in the game. This is firther evidenced by advanced lists often make an imperial soup and bring in some cheap conscript squads to fill the wound gap/provide chaff. The reason why the top percentile SM players build flyer spam is because 1. GW let them with the new FOC and 2. they are far superior in terms of durability, dps, and mobility per pt efficiency than any other choices.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss way the meta might be balanced for the better, not to say "oh youre doing it wrong"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/02 00:36:41


 
   
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 skchsan wrote:
I suppose elite armies can be defined as armies that have the least amount of models fieldable at average point games.

Cant speak for armies that dont yet have codex, but on avrage SM armies field average of 20~35 for competitive armies. AM's field about 50~70 models on average.


I can build a nid list with less than 10 models at 2k points. Do nids qualify now?

   
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My personal meta is very small. If I ran a bunch of flyers my friend would just shoot it out of the air with either a riptide or a broadside


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as marines go I'd say they could use the extra wound, and I'm talking about all marines. Chaos GK etc..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/02 00:45:02


 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
I suppose elite armies can be defined as armies that have the least amount of models fieldable at average point games.

Cant speak for armies that dont yet have codex, but on avrage SM armies field average of 20~35 for competitive armies. AM's field about 50~70 models on average.


I can build a nid list with less than 10 models at 2k points. Do nids qualify now?

Haha I wouldnt mind seeing buffed nid MC list. But in all seriousness, it would be cool to see warrior based armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
My personal meta is very small. If I ran a bunch of flyers my friend would just shoot it out of the air with either a riptide or a broadside


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as marines go I'd say they could use the extra wound, and I'm talking about all marines. Chaos GK etc..

Yeah my personal meta is really small too, and it spams plasma scions in valks. It always turns into a game of "paper cat" & "glass cannon mouse"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/02 01:11:22


 
   
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Maryland, USA

Would Scouts still be 1W?

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Give all combinations of ADEPTUS ASTARTES/HERETIC ASTARTES INFRANTY/BIKER +1 wound. Helps line infantry and doesn't help the stuff that's already good.

Scouts can be 2 wounds too since they are already 11 points with a Bolter, 15 with a Sniper and a whopping 18 with sniper and camo cloak, it's not like they are hard to kill as it is. If people are angry about it make only the sergeant 2 wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/02 02:16:49


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), and T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
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I would really like to hear about someone testing marines with an extra wound and see how it plays out.
   
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 skchsan wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

20 - 35 models for 2000 points? Well there's your problem.

Current flyer spam SM lists go for 7~13 models. Scout/tac/tac/guilliman goes for 36~40 models.


Sure, but those armies aren't exactly built around actual space marines. If you want them to feel more effective imo you have to bring more. If you only bring 20 guys and minimaly arm them, yeah, they're not going to be carrying the game for you.

No, these lists are actually the top tier list in the current competitive meta. I'd appreciate it if you didnt drag your 'I-get-better-mileage-out-of-my-tac-squad' argument into this thread.

I understand you elect not to participate in competitive tournaments, but competitive meta is often the basis/reference we look to see how the balance is in the game.

And as evidenced in the competitive meta, space marines field FAR less models than any other armies in the game. This is firther evidenced by advanced lists often make an imperial soup and bring in some cheap conscript squads to fill the wound gap/provide chaff. The reason why the top percentile SM players build flyer spam is because 1. GW let them with the new FOC and 2. they are far superior in terms of durability, dps, and mobility per pt efficiency than any other choices.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss way the meta might be balanced for the better, not to say "oh youre doing it wrong"


So you're going to balance basic space marines around data from a non-standard meta using armies without a focus on basic space marines. Im sorry, but I think thats the wrong approach.

While surviveability and 'dps' look nice and are easy to mathhammer out, I'd argue that there are some key elements missing. An obvious one is multi-wound weapons, which can hurt a vehicle more than a squad of infantry. The most an expensive Lascannon hurts a marine squad is killing one guy. Building "mass of power armor bodies" armies is a whole different philosophy than "spam the vehicle" armies, capitalizing on minimizing heavy antitank fire and capitalizing on long-game resiliency.

Also, have flyer spam armies still been winning big tourneys? I thought that was back in August prior to the change where they couldn't hold objectives any more. In a similar vein, have we really been considering the relationship between marines and conscripts now that conscripts have taken several nerfs over the past months? If you're going to use tourney data, how up to date is the data you're drawing on here? With the increasing nerfs to coscripts, basic space marines are much more favorable.

Also, what counts as 'elite'? Just space marines? Are we giving Aspect Warriors an extra wound? How about Necrons? Are Primaris going up to 3 and Tyranid Warriors up to 4?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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UK

 skchsan wrote:
I dont have the math on me, but what would be a result of increasing all "elite" armies' models' wounds by 1?

Is this going to be game breaking or a solution in the long run in terms of balancing issues?


Firstly - Define the Elite Armies and the units within them that are getting this bonus

I assume you are thinking of:

Eldar Aspect Warriors, Exarchs, Pheonix Lords,
Nercon Lychguard
Imperial Guard Veterans and Militarium Tempestus
Adepta Sororitas
Wyches, Succubus, Hekartixes
Harlequins
etc
etc

Not just a lets boost Marines - right?

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 Mr Morden wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
I dont have the math on me, but what would be a result of increasing all "elite" armies' models' wounds by 1?

Is this going to be game breaking or a solution in the long run in terms of balancing issues?


Firstly - Define the Elite Armies and the units within them that are getting this bonus

I assume you are thinking of:

Eldar Aspect Warriors, Exarchs, Pheonix Lords,
Nercon Lychguard
Imperial Guard Veterans and Militarium Tempestus
Adepta Sororitas
Wyches, Succubus, Hekartixes
Harlequins
etc
etc

Not just a lets boost Marines - right?


Right. I feel like 'elite' units across the game doesnt feel elite enough. Theyre overpriced liabilities where spending few more points and bringing BIG guns or spending less per model and bringing larger units seems more prudent list building.

As for the proposed list of units subject to upgrade, I will try to draft it up over the weekend.
   
Made in ca
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






 skchsan wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
I dont have the math on me, but what would be a result of increasing all "elite" armies' models' wounds by 1?

Is this going to be game breaking or a solution in the long run in terms of balancing issues?


Firstly - Define the Elite Armies and the units within them that are getting this bonus

I assume you are thinking of:

Eldar Aspect Warriors, Exarchs, Pheonix Lords,
Nercon Lychguard
Imperial Guard Veterans and Militarium Tempestus
Adepta Sororitas
Wyches, Succubus, Hekartixes
Harlequins
etc
etc

Not just a lets boost Marines - right?


Right. I feel like 'elite' units across the game doesnt feel elite enough. Theyre overpriced liabilities where spending few more points and bringing BIG guns or spending less per model and bringing larger units seems more prudent list building.

As for the proposed list of units subject to upgrade, I will try to draft it up over the weekend.


I asked the same question.
But then I also ask is an elite army one where your cheapest troop option is 10+ points.
Apparently harliquins are 16 points and me and the guy who said that agree they shouldn't have 2 wounds for fluff reasons

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/02 21:45:43


 
   
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Tacoma, WA, USA

"an elite army one where your cheapest troop option is 10+ points."

So Space Marines are Elite (11 point Scouts) but Chaos Space Marines are not (4 Point Cultist)?
   
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 alextroy wrote:
"an elite army one where your cheapest troop option is 10+ points."

So Space Marines are Elite (11 point Scouts) but Chaos Space Marines are not (4 Point Cultist)?


So loyalist marines get two wounds and csm stay at one? Am I reading that right?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior




Tacoma, WA, USA

 skchsan wrote:
Why does a single marines cost nearly 3 times a guardman when they dont perform nearly three times better?


They don't?
  • A single Marine-fired Bolter shot has a nearly 30% chance of killing a Guardsman (2/3 Hit * 2/3 Damage * 2/3 bypass Armor).

  • A single Guardsman-fired Lasgun shot has a ~6% chance of killing a Space Marine (1/2 Hit * 1/3 Damage * 1/3 bypass Armor).


  • The kill chances in Close Combat are exactly the same for a Marine with no Close Combat Weapon versus a Guardsman with no Close Combat Weapon. It takes nearly 6 Guardman to be as destructive as a single Space Marine. They do have the advantage of having 6 wounds to 1, but maybe that is why a Space Marine is only 3 times as expensive as the Guardsman.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/03 21:42:55


     
       
     
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