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I never said that. All point values must be empirically determined in a game like this. Math comes in with predicted performance
of units once those values are determined.

Any give whole can be less than or greater than the sum of its parts. And that's the marine problem; they've always been far less than the sum of their parts. Which makes breaking down point values for each ability relatively futile. I still think they play like 11 ppm models. I don't care what other units cost in that assessment. They're quite bad.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:50:37


 
   
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skchsan wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
So then what differentiates a GEQ and MEQ to justify the 2.5x~3x base cost?

Marines only have +1WS, +1BS, +1T, +1S, and +2 sv

Are they really worth that much more where the only real difference those stats make is how S3 affects T4's?


Well let's look at it with Sisters as a middle step.

Space Marine over a Sister is: 2 Special Rules (3 with Combat Squads but that's derpy), +1T, +1WS, +1STR; so if we go with 13ppm then that's +4 points for 2 special rules and 3 stats. Call ATSKNF the same as acts of faith, and it's +1 point per stat and special rule.

Sororitas are 9ppm, and over guard have +2 save, +1 Ld, Acts of Faith, and +1BS. By the same logic (1ppm per stat point and special rule), then guardsmen should be 5ppm cheaper - or 4ppm

But what about orders? And AM's regimental doctrines?


Orders are special rules on the HQ models, not special rules inherently possessed by Guardsmen. Regimental Doctrines I didn't consider; I presume they are matched by Shield of Faith, and in that case we'll have to include Combat Squads to balance the Tactical Marines or make Tactical Marines 12ppm like I mentioned.

Martel732 wrote:I never said that. All point values must be empirically determined in a game like this. Math comes in with predicted performance
of units once those values are determined.


So how do you balance units empirically when there is such variance in unit type? For example, Space Marines with Guilliman are fairly priced, imo, because Guilliman is so cheap. But without Guilliman, they are fairly bad, and should probably be 12ppm, or less if sisters get cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
I never said that. All point values must be empirically determined in a game like this. Math comes in with predicted performance
of units once those values are determined.

Any give whole can be less than or greater than the sum of its parts. And that's the marine problem; they've always been far less than the sum of their parts. Which makes breaking down point values for each ability relatively futile. I still think they play like 11 ppm models. I don't care what other units cost in that assessment. They're quite bad.


Or, perhaps they're fairly priced?

What data are you using to say they're bad?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:52:19


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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Guilliman should have two costs. One with UM, and one without UM.

Having played against a new sisters player more recently, the acts of faith mechanic is far better than most CT imo. Sisters, in some ways, play more powerfully than marines. Especially with access to all those stormbolters.

"What data are you using to say they're bad?"

Their relative contribution in my matches compared to other troops. It's all perception, granted. But it's my most fair assessment. I don't think they are fairly priced with the current rule set and choices available to other armies. CQC is weaker than ever, marines are slow, Rhinos are expensive, etc.

How a marine is 4 pts more than a firewarrior in a shooting based edition blows my mind.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:58:48


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Guilliman should have two costs. One with UM, and one without UM.

Having played against a new sisters player more recently, the acts of faith mechanic is far better than most CT imo. Sisters, in some ways, play more powerfully than marines. Especially with access to all those stormbolters.

"What data are you using to say they're bad?"

Their relative contribution in my matches compared to other troops. It's all perception, granted. But it's my most fair assessment. I don't think they are fairly priced with the current rule set and choices available to other armies.


In your own local meta and used by your own local hand, while Insectum insists they're fairly good in his own perception. Which perception do we use?

And I agree that 1 unit compared to 1 unit, AOF is better.

But the problem AOF has that CT doesn't have is scalability. 1 AOF is worth far more at 500 points than it is at 5000, while chapter tactics is fairly reliable at all points levels.

Plus, you don't have to roll for CTs like you do Acts of Faith.

SM have more access to storm bolters than sisters.

Lastly: I agree, with the 2 points costs thing. In fact, I think the whole base balancing mechanism of the game should be revamped, as points are not a great way to do it. How do you point something with the Macro rule that can one-shot a Warhound Titan but only kills ~4 conscripts? If we're going to deviate from GW's usual way of doing something, then I suggest we throw points out altogether.

EDIT to reply to your edit:
An SM is 4 ppm more than a Fire Warrior because the Fire Warrior has +1 strength on it's gun (should be 14ppm), but -2 Weapon Skill (12 ppm), -1 Save (11ppm), -1 Strength (10ppm), -1 Toughness (9ppm), -1 LD (8ppm).

So they are perhaps too expensive, if we go by our formula. And that matches up; Tau are doing less good in tournaments than Marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:02:37


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Dude had a lot of characters that kept giving him more. His guys (or girls) were cheaper AND getting more actions per phase. It was crazy hard to deal with.

Most CT simply don't have a significant impact on the game. The UM one is almost completely useless as bad as CQC is. I'd much rather have non-scaling AoF than scaling crap.

I don't think the mathematical formula approach works at all, though. How does the firewarrior play? A lot better than a marine, that's how.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:04:17


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Dude had a lot of characters that kept giving him more. His guys (or girls) were cheaper AND getting more actions per phase. It was crazy hard to deal with.


Those characters are 40ppm for a Space Marine statline (with 3 wounds) and an Act of Faith but only on a 4+ (so completely unreliable).

Imagifiers actually actively harm a Sororitas army, if you believe the SOB tactics thread, and in fact are only slightly more useful now because they die a lot and our new stratagem is neat for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Dude had a lot of characters that kept giving him more. His guys (or girls) were cheaper AND getting more actions per phase. It was crazy hard to deal with.

Most CT simply don't have a significant impact on the game. The UM one is almost completely useless as bad as CQC is. I'd much rather have non-scaling AoF than scaling crap.


I disagree based on my own experience and perceptions, which is as much evidence as you have .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:04:52


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
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Maybe marines are worse than I thought, then. It was a brutal game in which I was never truly competitive. Although the sisters got first turn, which is another barrel of fish.

You're free to disagree, but you'll likely never convince me marines are worth 13 ppm unless some major point changes to things like manticores happens. Of course, that doesn't matter as GW sets the points. I predict that primaris gets all the love from here on out to slowly squeeze out the old marines.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:07:42


 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Orders are special rules on the HQ models, not special rules inherently possessed by Guardsmen. Regimental Doctrines I didn't consider; I presume they are matched by Shield of Faith, and in that case we'll have to include Combat Squads to balance the Tactical Marines or make Tactical Marines 12ppm like I mentioned.

There's lack of considerations in the weight of value for each stat you're valuing at +1 pt per stat. By an extension of your logic, then a land raider should only cost 42 points more than a guardsman since it has +4 M, -2 WS, +1 BS, +5 S, +5 T, +17 W, +2 Sv, +3 Ld and +3 for special rules and +1 for CT.

Each stats have different weight. The reason why I started this thread, by focusing initially on wound count revision then broadened the discussion to toughness as well is because these two values are more relevant (as opposed to melee stats) and are of least weight in the game currently.

Why they have the least weight in the game is because:
-proliferation of high strength weapons along with the new to wound roll system means most 'properly matched weapons to targets' are wounding on +3's anyways.
-most weapons having multiple damage system - a plasma, the game's current go to weapon for MEQ's, when overcharged, threatens T4 1W and T4 2W's at the same rate.

This thread escalated WAY TOO QUICKLY once you guys made it to another 'lower the cost of marines' argument.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Maybe marines are worse than I thought, then. It was a brutal game in which I was never truly competitive. Although the sisters got first turn, which is another barrel of fish.

You're free to disagree, but you'll likely never convince me marines are worth 13 ppm unless some major point changes to things like manticores happens.


I think in certain situations Marines are absolutely worth 13ppm, and in other situations are worth like 5, lol.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 skchsan wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Orders are special rules on the HQ models, not special rules inherently possessed by Guardsmen. Regimental Doctrines I didn't consider; I presume they are matched by Shield of Faith, and in that case we'll have to include Combat Squads to balance the Tactical Marines or make Tactical Marines 12ppm like I mentioned.

There's lack of considerations in the weight of value for each stat you're valuing at +1 pt per stat. By an extension of your logic, then a land raider should only cost 42 points more than a guardsman since it has +4 M, -2 WS, +1 BS, +5 S, +5 T, +17 W, +2 Sv, +3 Ld and +3 for special rules and +1 for CT.

Each stats have different weight. The reason why I started this thread, by focusing initially on wound count revision then broadened the discussion to toughness as well is because these two values are more relevant (as opposed to melee stats) and are of least weight in the game currently.

Why they have the least weight in the game is because:
-proliferation of high strength weapons along with the new to wound roll system means most 'properly matched weapons to targets' are wounding on +3's anyways.
-most weapons having multiple damage system - a plasma, the game's current go to weapon for MEQ's, when overcharged, threatens T4 1W and T4 2W's at the same rate.

This thread escalated WAY TOO QUICKLY once you guys made it to another 'lower the cost of marines' argument.


Yes, this is why you can't use a formula. It has to be empirical.
   
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 skchsan wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Orders are special rules on the HQ models, not special rules inherently possessed by Guardsmen. Regimental Doctrines I didn't consider; I presume they are matched by Shield of Faith, and in that case we'll have to include Combat Squads to balance the Tactical Marines or make Tactical Marines 12ppm like I mentioned.

There's lack of considerations in the weight of value for each stat you're valuing at +1 pt per stat. By an extension of your logic, then a land raider should only cost 42 points more than a guardsman since it has +4 M, -2 WS, +1 BS, +5 S, +5 T, +17 W, +2 Sv, +3 Ld and +3 for special rules and +1 for CT.

Each stats have different weight. The reason why I started this thread, by focusing initially on wound count revision then broadened the discussion to toughness as well is because these two values are more relevant (as opposed to melee stats) and are of least weight in the game currently.

Why they have the least weight in the game is because:
-proliferation of high strength weapons along with the new to wound roll system means most 'properly matched weapons to targets' are wounding on +3's anyways.
-most weapons having multiple damage system - a plasma, the game's current go to weapon for MEQ's, when overcharged, threatens T4 1W and T4 2W's at the same rate.

This thread escalated WAY TOO QUICKLY once you guys made it to another 'lower the cost of marines' argument.


The problem is that you based your entire assertion on giving certain stats "weightiness in the game" and then ignored that the game changes from state-to-state, so whats "weightier" on an ITC table may be completely irrelevant on a Zone Mortalis table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My fundamental issue with empirical balance:

Situations can make units seem WAAAAAY better or worse than they are.

E.G. Marines sitting still getting pounded by artillery all game are probably worth ~3ppm, as they're only paying to distract the artillery and accomplishing nothing else.

OTOH

Marines in close combat with a guard squad pinned against a hallway wall in a cityfight scenario are probably a bit better than 3ppm....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:11:21


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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The vast majority of states will heavily favor shooting. The vast majority of states will favor the list that can spam the most cheap bodies as a shield against any possible kind of assault list or deep strikes. IG can autowin against almost any assault based list for around 500 pts, as well as neuter any list that tries to use deep striking.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
The vast majority of states will heavily favor shooting. The vast majority of states will favor the list that can spam the most cheap bodies as a shield against any possible kind of assault list or deep strikes. IG can autowin against almost any assault based list for around 500 pts, as well as neuter any list that tries to use deep striking.


I think this is true in the ITC scenarios.

Have you played Zone Mortalis-style games with SM vs IG? Or Cityfight? Or Stronghold Assault?

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The vast majority of states will heavily favor shooting. The vast majority of states will favor the list that can spam the most cheap bodies as a shield against any possible kind of assault list or deep strikes. IG can autowin against almost any assault based list for around 500 pts, as well as neuter any list that tries to use deep striking.


I think this is true in the ITC scenarios.

Have you played Zone Mortalis-style games with SM vs IG? Or Cityfight? Or Stronghold Assault?


We don't play those for the most part. For me, they might as well not exist.

No matter how many buildings you put out, IG are still ignoring LoS. That's.. pretty good.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:15:16


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The vast majority of states will heavily favor shooting. The vast majority of states will favor the list that can spam the most cheap bodies as a shield against any possible kind of assault list or deep strikes. IG can autowin against almost any assault based list for around 500 pts, as well as neuter any list that tries to use deep striking.


I think this is true in the ITC scenarios.

Have you played Zone Mortalis-style games with SM vs IG? Or Cityfight? Or Stronghold Assault?


We don't play those for the most part. For me, they might as well not exist.

No matter how many buildings you put out, IG are still ignoring LoS. That's.. pretty good.


Depending, of course, on a whole variety of things.

And yeah, if you only play the pre-set ITC boards then I can see why you'd think Marines are undercosted, because those boards are fairly favorable to guard. In tight cityfight-style or ZM corridors, it's easy to split up the huge and unwieldy Imperial Guard force and cut it apart piecemeal, using the superior force concentration of an expensive army to bring a greater number of points to bear in a small area where the IG can't really reach or get away.

Their artillery is about the only thing they have going for them in that scenario, but it's still not enough, in my experience.

You probably won't believe me, but my foot sororitas army supported by 2 Malcadors beat an IG army with 50 infantry, 30 conscripts, a bunch of officers and commissars, and a whole metric fuckton of artillery (the rest) in a city-fight scenario at 2k points in a local campaign by exploiting my better force concentration and my opponent's psychology about certain units that made my opponent focus his artillery firepower in inefficient ways.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
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I believe you. If the IG screws up target selection, they can lose. You play against people from 3rd ed, that's hard to count on. They always know which marine thing to nuke first. It would be a bit more tolerable if marine shooting platforms weren't quite so pricey and IG were paying more to ignore LoS. Predators are still way too expensive compared to what IG and Eldar have, imo.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:23:59


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
I believe you. If the IG screws up target selection, they can lose. You play against people from 3rd ed, that's hard to count on. They always know which marine thing to nuke first.


So use that thing as a decoy.

If your plan revolves around the unit they know they have to nuke, then start making that unit irrelevant to your battle plan. That way, they'll nuke it, and then be surprised when that shooting phase was wasted and didn't meaningfully impact the game.

That's what I did. The Malcadors were my anti-tank lynchpin, and my opponent knew it. I talked about it all day. When it came time to shoot, he shot my Malcadors, and rightly so.

I lost all of my AT firepower and never killed his artillery. But he spent enough shooting phases dicking around with units that he just had to shoot (he KNEW he had to shoot them!) that he lost the objective war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:25:17


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
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They won't fall for it. Too many games. It's never a certain unit that they are nuking. It's whatever will make it hardest for me to win. Because they have infinite choices via ignore LoS and I have very few choices, ie the target they give me. They also know that if it becomes a slog for objectives, they've got 150 obj sec bodies and I have 40 tops. Marine anti-tank is expensive, and so kills slowly, so they don't necessarily need to prioritize that. They have every conceivable advantage, because CQC is so weak in 8th.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:27:56


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
They won't fall for it. Too many games. It's never a certain unit that they are nuking. It's whatever will make it hardest for me to win. Because they have infinite choices via ignore LoS and I have very few choices, ie the target they give me. They also know that if it becomes a slog for objectives, they've got 150 obj sec bodies and I have 40 tops.


Yes but your 40 can take on that 150, in a straight fight (because of your superior ability to position, it should never be a straight fight), so all you have to do is make the artillery choose the wrong targets.

And it sounds like if your opponents are completely immune to bad decisions, then they're just perfect players and you should be honoured that they beat you, though it's unfortunate that these flawless people don't have the opportunity to play at major events, as I've seen even the top-tables people at e.g. NOVA get target priorities wrong and fail to understand their opponent's battle plan until it was too late.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:29:37


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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They're not immune, but the their margin of error is MUCH larger than for marines. If they panic on one manticore, they've got 2 more in the pocket. Also marines just don't HAVE that many targets. Small model count and all that. IG vs Tyranids is a much more compelling matchup. Marines are just too easy for them.

The 40 can't take on the 150 in the time frame that I need them to. Especially if they have tac marines amongst them. They kill geqs SO slowly. If they mob the objective first, I have no way to get them off in a reasonable amount of time. Remember fall backs only have to be ~1".

IG has access to orders that make them faster than marines, so they actually win the positioning war all things being equal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:33:12


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
They're not immune, but the their margin of error is MUCH larger than for marines.

The 40 can't take on the 150 in the time frame that I need them to. Especially if they have tac marines amongst them. They kill geqs SO slowly. If they mob the objective first, I have no way to get them off in a reasonable amount of time. Remember fall backs only have to be ~1".


This is a matter of debate. I ran 4 10-girl sisters squads at that game in Cityfight and, with help from some retributors and one of the damaged Malcadors, they took the conscripts down to like 4 models in one turn, then started chopping away at the infantry squads in CC until they were all dead.

At the end I had only 4 Sisters left standing on the objective, but my opponent had nothing.

Remember, in CC you get to fight twice each Battle Round, plus one shooting phase if you have pistols (which Sororitas do, and so do Marines). Plus, a Canoness with an Eviscerator fairly efficiently deleted ~4-5 guardsmen per fight phase, unless they fell back.

EDIT to match your EDIT:

That's not true at all, because speed is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about model count. In Cityfight, it's much easier for 40 models to fight 40 models than it is for 150 models to fight 40 models, not because the 150 are too slow but because the 150 are too big. There's no order in the AM codex that makes their units able to stand atop one another.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:34:44


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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Maybe in Cityfight. But I'm never doing Cityfight.

When I do get IG in CQC, what happens is that they score the maelstrom objective for three turns, and then I don't get it until the end of the game. Winning the war long-term for a maelstrom objective doesn't help, only for an eternal war objective. For eternal war objectives, they will nuke me off with artillery or scions. This is true whether I engage in CQC or not, as they can always fall back automatically allowing the artillery to destroy me.

A marine kills 1.2 pts of guardsmen every combat phase, 2.4 pts on the phases where they can use their pistols. That's still less than one guardsmen per two phases. Too slow. Again, I expect more of a 13 ppm model.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:44:54


 
   
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Okay.

So in those situations maybe Tacs are 11ppm. But that is not the same situation everywhere.

Maybe mix it up a bit instead of getting tabled. Honestly if I were in your position I would be begging my playgroup to use some of the cooler scenarios like cityfight or to build maps like Zone Mortalis or use some of the battlezone rules.

40k is ultra boring playing Eternal War and Maelstrom on ITC tables forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it would be boring even if it were balanced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:46:04


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
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There is no situation where the tacs kill the guardsmen any faster. Now, they beat guardians to death at the same rate, but there were half as many guardians to begin with, so that's twice as fast point-wise. Maybe marines are worth 13 ppm vs guardians, but none of my opponents are using them atm.

Seems like to me if the models are not worth 13 ppm in the base scenarios in the book, they are overcosted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:49:43


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
There is no situation where the tacs kill the guardsmen any faster. Now, they beat guardians to death at the same rate, but there were half as many guardians to begin with, so that's twice as fast point-wise. Maybe marines are worth 13 ppm vs guardians, but none of my opponents are using them atm.

Seems like to me if the models are not worth 13 ppm in the base scenarios in the book, they are overcosted.


Cityfight and stronghold assault are base scenarios in the book, and so are a ton of others.

Honestly your meta sounds boring. Even if the game were balanced, you would still get trashed by these better players playing the same scenarios on essentially the same boards over and over and over again.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
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I'll look into it, I guess.

Are they players better, or is the IG better? These were the Eldar playes from last edition, I might add.

I don't have ANY of these problems against other marines.
   
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Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

One way to find out is to do an Army swap with one of the Guard players.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I did that several times in 7th. I'm undefeated as 7th ed eldar.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

Martel732 wrote:
I did that several times in 7th. I'm undefeated as 7th ed eldar.

Then it is probably the armies and not the players.

Though some might say that choice of army is a player choice that determines success in the game just like list building, but I don't think it should imo

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I accept that as true in gw games.
   
 
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