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Made in us
Psychic Novitiate selected by a Gatherer



Minnesota

Desubot
Not sure how to quote but...
Tau plasma is 11 pts (on a BS4+ platform), otherwise identical profile except -1 S and no overcharge.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






mmm Pretty weaksauce.

its kinda expensive all for just the ap.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Desubot wrote:

(well whats the difference between a scion and say something comparable like vets? points wise)



Well, 3 points but the Vets are Elite units.

Because.

Galas wrote:
But at the same time, it punishes people that want to use Scions in vehicles, because as you said, +1 armour isn't worth 3ppm in a infantry model like that.


How so? I was looking to take Scions in my generic 2k list, and was considering tying them to Valks.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
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 Infantryman wrote:
Desubot wrote:

(well whats the difference between a scion and say something comparable like vets? points wise)



Well, 3 points but the Vets are Elite units.

Because.

Galas wrote:
But at the same time, it punishes people that want to use Scions in vehicles, because as you said, +1 armour isn't worth 3ppm in a infantry model like that.


How so? I was looking to take Scions in my generic 2k list, and was considering tying them to Valks.


Well would you be able to add another unit or weapon upgrade or something for 3x the number of scions you took?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd probably go with:
Plasma gun low power, 24", rapid fire 1, S6, ap-2, D1
Plasma gun supercharge, 24", rapid fire 1, S7, ap-3, D2, overheat on natural 1 on first roll, model takes 1 mortal wound

Cannon would be heavy d3, 2 mortal wound but with a clause that it only applies to the model.

I find it funny that people say flamers are too short when they're the same range as before. I get that it's because of deep strike. Maybe they shouldn't have a random number of hits. Make it 8 - 1 hit per inch away so you get 6 hits at 2 inches. Or better yet just bring back templates and blasts. They worked fine for most situations. It was only when you had lots of them with rerolls or a player being picky about what was touched that problems arose. Go back to 3rd edition (I think) where you just place it, count models then roll to hit for each model.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Cardiff

Zustiur wrote:
I'd probably go with:
Plasma gun low power, 24", rapid fire 1, S6, ap-2, D1
Plasma gun supercharge, 24", rapid fire 1, S7, ap-3, D2, overheat on natural 1 on first roll, model takes 1 mortal wound

Cannon would be heavy d3, 2 mortal wound but with a clause that it only applies to the model.

I find it funny that people say flamers are too short when they're the same range as before. I get that it's because of deep strike. Maybe they shouldn't have a random number of hits. Make it 8 - 1 hit per inch away so you get 6 hits at 2 inches. Or better yet just bring back templates and blasts. They worked fine for most situations. It was only when you had lots of them with rerolls or a player being picky about what was touched that problems arose. Go back to 3rd edition (I think) where you just place it, count models then roll to hit for each model.


That's exactly why they say flamers are too short. Their primary use was as Charge defense. Now they're useless against Deep striking chargers.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Sorry, but plasma are not really an issue. They are good but not game breaking.

I can possibly see a point increase long term if they become a problem. But currently non issue.

Even the emo angels of tzeentch, with more plasma weapons than secrets are not really an issue.

In war there is poetry; in death, release. 
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

Seriously plasma shouldn't he touched, is failry balanced as it is. Just nerf the re-roll of 1s spam and the deep strike. Re-rolls in general and the availability of deep strike are real issues in this edition, they are the problems that should be fixed, not plasmas.

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Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Increasing the cost of Plasma weapons is the easiest way to do it, since the thing about Plasma is its effective/points.

   
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Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.

   
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Wagguy80 wrote:
Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.



That would be pretty disasterous with overheat

though i like the idea of fully changing modes.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
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Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

The best solution to plasma is to simply remove it from the Astra Militarum wargear list. Or, make it cost appropriately for their models, or raise the cost of their models.

It's not like marines are spamming plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5


Dropping melta range bonuses would make guard even stronger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:29:24


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
Wagguy80 wrote:
Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.



That would be pretty disasterous with overheat

though i like the idea of fully changing modes.


Tau ion rifles already do this except instead of 2 damage they get Heavy D3 shots (in other words more chances of dying to overheat death), so... it's got my vote.

Besides, wouldn't they overheat on twos instead of ones? Because plasma overheats on ones and 1-1=0 whereas 2-1=1 ( a 1 is always a fail but that doesn't affect overheat) Basically 1/6 times anyway except that it bypasses reroll ones.


I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5


+1 and add that when within half range you double the strength. (at that range the model's going to die anyway, might as well make it worth it)


The best solution to plasma is to simply remove it from the Astra Militarum wargear list. Or, make it cost appropriately for their models, or raise the cost of their models.

It's not like marines are spamming plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaconCatBug wrote:
I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5


Dropping melta range bonuses would make guard even stronger.


That's seems a bit shortsighted. Meltas are subpar but buffing them buffs IG more than other factions so you're against it? Just adjust Guard a bit till it's fine. (but not to the point Guard are bad)
For starters, bumping Guard infantry to 5ppm and forcing Scions to pay for deep strike would do a lot to mitigate spam.

   
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Germany

 Marmatag wrote:

It's not like marines are spamming plasma.


No, dark angels will not spam plasma. Never. They have a 1 CP stratagem which increases the damage of their plasma guns by 1. And they reroll 1s when they didnt move in the movement phase. So, you will never ever see a 10 model devastator squad with plasma cannons overcharging when they didnt move. I mean, who would seriously do that ?

Oh wait, dark angels arent marines, so you're right
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




The problem isnt plasma in general---the problem is its the only special weapon that is about the right point cost.

All the other special weapons are way to many points for what you get out of them. That is why everyone is taking mainly only plasma.

Plasma guns for marines at 13 pts are honestly pointed about right, as you have to bring another 100+ pt model to make them somewhat safe in overcharge mode.....and if you dont you usually end up losing a model or two a game from overheats.

Also CPTs/re-rolls can be killed off with psychic powers/snipers--or even be pulled away by the needs of the game to be in a different area.
   
Made in de
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Germany

chaos45 wrote:

Plasma guns for marines at 13 pts are honestly pointed about right, as you have to bring another 100+ pt model to make them somewhat safe in overcharge mode.....and if you dont you usually end up losing a model or two a game from overheats.


A SM captain is 77 pts. Dark angels have rerolling 1s for free when they didnt move in the movement phase. Its their chapter tactic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/23 13:16:02


 
   
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I think the idea was to make flamers score more than 1 hit on a single model
   
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chaos45 wrote:
The problem isnt plasma in general---the problem is its the only special weapon that is about the right point cost.

All the other special weapons are way to many points for what you get out of them. That is why everyone is taking mainly only plasma.

Plasma guns for marines at 13 pts are honestly pointed about right, as you have to bring another 100+ pt model to make them somewhat safe in overcharge mode.....and if you dont you usually end up losing a model or two a game from overheats.

Also CPTs/re-rolls can be killed off with psychic powers/snipers--or even be pulled away by the needs of the game to be in a different area.


Overcharging plasma shouldn't be safe. Otherwise it may as well be the only setting. Which is the problem. There's actually very little risk in overcharging, so the setting that should be used sparingly is the only one that's ever used as it is.
   
Made in ca
Bounding Assault Marine





Vancouver, BC, Canada

For crying out loud, guys...

“Oh no! Marines have something that can kill stuff! Nerf bat! Nerf bat!”

Seriously, Bolters are useless, and short of resorting to vererans as an overpriced delivery system, marines have limited options that can offer any kind of weight of fire with special weapons.

So we’ve got Hellblasters now, and we can reroll the 1’s if we pay the points for an aura and keep it nearby (which limits our options with the tactical asset that HQ represents). Do you realize how vulnerable plasma overcharge is to the negative hit modifiers they are spamming all the new codexes with?

Honestly, Power Armour is nowhere near as effective as it used to be, Grav got nerfed into the ground, and only has very limited, specific application now, Drop Pods more than doubled in price, and even basic marines themselves are significantly overcosted. The army in general is decidedly second tier. Very few winning “marine lists” are actually marine armies. The overwhelming majority are Imperial soup, the majority of those featuring strong guard contingents. Exactly zero marine lists without Gulliman have placed top 3 in ITC this year.

I don’t wanna troll or be rude, but with the strength of the Guard and Chaos books, and crap like Wraithguard in Wave Serpents, and Dark Reapers (that get to shoot AGAIN when they remove a unit and disappear back out of LOS after doing so, before you can even shoot back) about to take over the meta, you guys wanna beef about plasma?...

Sure guys, whatever you say.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 19:28:24


   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

plasma isn't just on marines sir. A lot of people that have a problem with it have said problem because of the non-marine bodies that it can ride on.

For marines it's just a good option, and the other special weapons are way overpriced, so it becomes the only realistic option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 21:35:48


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Wagguy80 wrote:
Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.



So in other words you would probably just rapid fire the non overcharged as

1) you wouldnt get minus for moving
2) you would get two shots for 2d and no risk of overheating, vs -1 and a risk of over heating for 2d.


Plasma is not a issue, and the fact someone saying Dark Angels will be broken with too much plasma is laughable.

All the hate moaning about deepstriking is just poor, is plasma really broken because you arent denying deepstrike and bubble wrapping etc? 9inch deepstrike is so easy to predict and if you take a unit that can do so easy to mitigate.

The worst ones IMO are things like from the shadows as you cannot mitigate them and they have the utility to get most places they need to go but again in most cases you can manipulate that and have "some" control...


40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
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Sweden

What about factions without cheap bubble wrap units?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




i can see with heavy elite armies (GK, Tau Battle Suits, Monster Tyranid list,) that have small or minimum amount of screens that overcharging plasma will be a nightmare.

I mean even terminators drop fast when hit by overcharged plasma, or even primaris cause of the 2 damage.

At the moment, plasma for some armies is just bargain bin cheap to run effectively while on other armies it is actually a pretty solid choice compared to other options, which are still viable in their own ways

It's the fact that GW can change the pts for individual armies to better balance them out that is the problem here. Plasma should be considered a powerful but finite option for all armies. Points cost that reflect this philosophy should be reflective of all armies.

It just means that some plasma are more uncommon on elite forces (SM/CSM, ect.) and should be a more finite resource and rarer for other armies.

This is probably something that would need an army by army tweak, to reflect it's finite supply
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Deadawake1347 wrote:
Overcharging plasma shouldn't be safe. Otherwise it may as well be the only setting. Which is the problem. There's actually very little risk in overcharging, so the setting that should be used sparingly is the only one that's ever used as it is.


This is the primary issue. Overcharging plasma should represent an actual risk to the wielder. I like the idea of making it cause 1 mortal wound to the bearer on a natural roll of a 1 before re-rolls. No instant death for rolling a 1, but more likely to go wrong if you choose to fire it on high power.
   
Made in nz
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Darsath wrote:
Deadawake1347 wrote:
Overcharging plasma shouldn't be safe. Otherwise it may as well be the only setting. Which is the problem. There's actually very little risk in overcharging, so the setting that should be used sparingly is the only one that's ever used as it is.


This is the primary issue. Overcharging plasma should represent an actual risk to the wielder. I like the idea of making it cause 1 mortal wound to the bearer on a natural roll of a 1 before re-rolls. No instant death for rolling a 1, but more likely to go wrong if you choose to fire it on high power.


Only problem is that some platforms that fire plasma have more than one wound, so it's damaging on one wound models but fizzes out on bigger multi wound models.

I would say do the 1 is slain now, but also D3 mortal wounds to the squad to represent the backlash. D6 for a bigger variation of plasma and higher increments of D6 for even bigger variations. Single model units that have it should make a boom aura around them that effects units, so it gives people incentives not to get them so close.

Re-roll 1's make this risk into a rarity. So i would say for every dice roll of 1 counts as an overheat (it even says in the CRB that a dice roll and a final result are indeed different terms). That way you can still re-roll, but that model is going to die, regardless of if it hits with that shot or not.

These changes, and i wouldn't mind the points as they stand, because it sounds cheap, but the risk is proportional to their price now
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

Model slain with a result of 1, regardless of the number of its wounds. D3 mortal wounds if it has the "vehicle" keyword instead.

No re-rolls of any kind allowed when the player rolls a 1 for overcharged plasma shots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/01 07:56:35


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Just make melta cheaper. Problem largely fixed. Make IG units such as scions and guardsmen more expensive.. Problem fixed.

You don't need to take away rerolls of 1 with all the -1 to hit in the game. That's the reason I'm not all in on plasma as it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/01 12:02:46


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Model slain with a result of 1, regardless of the number of its wounds. D3 mortal wounds if it has the "vehicle" keyword instead.

No re-rolls of any kind allowed when the player rolls a 1 for overcharged plasma shots.


Well, with that wording plasma would vanish from every list overnight. Way too harsh
   
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Italy

WindstormSCR wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Model slain with a result of 1, regardless of the number of its wounds. D3 mortal wounds if it has the "vehicle" keyword instead.

No re-rolls of any kind allowed when the player rolls a 1 for overcharged plasma shots.


Well, with that wording plasma would vanish from every list overnight. Way too harsh


Not true, I usually bring plasma guns in my space wolves lists without the wolf lord neabry to give them the re-roll. Plasma guns even with the basic profile, without overcharging or overcharging but with some risk, are still very good weapons for 13 points on models that hit on 3s. Plasma pistols are useful as well for 7 points.

Plasma spam would vanish, and it's actually a good thing. A few plasma guns in an imperium list would still be nice.

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