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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Tournament soup builds have gotten a few corners shaved off (no more multiple-CP-regen-rolls and a few more expensive stratagems), but there's still nothing preventing you from taking ten extra CP from random Guardsmen in the first place, which means all the Imperial armies are going to continue being designed around the idea that you've got 3-400pts of random Guardsmen floating around plugging any holes in your list.

Woo. Such a fantastic set of changes setting us up for a whole new raft of army builds rather than the endless cookie-cutter sea of guardsmen-Dominus Knight-Marine characters soup lists.

Yeah. And if anything, they doubled down on guardsmen farms being all but required by raising the cost of strategems so a pure army is going to have a lot less to work with. If anything, Imperial soup gained an even bigger advantage over mono-dex armies.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Tournament soup builds have gotten a few corners shaved off (no more multiple-CP-regen-rolls and a few more expensive stratagems), but there's still nothing preventing you from taking ten extra CP from random Guardsmen in the first place, which means all the Imperial armies are going to continue being designed around the idea that you've got 3-400pts of random Guardsmen floating around plugging any holes in your list.

Woo. Such a fantastic set of changes setting us up for a whole new raft of army builds rather than the endless cookie-cutter sea of guardsmen-Dominus Knight-Marine characters soup lists.

Yeah. And if anything, they doubled down on guardsmen farms being all but required by raising the cost of strategems so a pure army is going to have a lot less to work with. If anything, Imperial soup gained an even bigger advantage over mono-dex armies.

They increased the cost of ONE stratagem by ONE CP, for non IK players.

Sure, pure IKs are more likely to soup true. But is quite a different statement than "Imperial soup gained an even bigger advantage over mono-dex armies", which is false. This change has brought down the power of soup considerably. The next top lists IMHO will not be soups, at least not all of them.

"Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem? A: Yes."
Do we have to pay the CP again?

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
"Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem? A: Yes."
Do we have to pay the CP again?

No.

the_scotsman wrote:
That's not exactly how math works. an increase in armor save from 3+ to 2+ causes ap- guns to cause half the casualties, an increase in armor save from 6+ to 5+ does not.

Bolter vs an ork

2*.6666*.5*.83333 (6+ armor save): .555 unsaved wounds.
2*.6666*.5*.6666 (5+ armor save): .444 unsaved wounds.

It's about 20% less damage.

Wrong. I like how you tried to muddy the issue by throwing variables that have nothing to do with the stratagem into the above. If you want to take everything, even the color of the table, into equation, how about you do actually correct version and include the point costs of the DG and horde models, then multiply expected wpp in both cases by stratagem change - suddenly, it will be just like I described

Hagon wrote:
The first FAQ for September 2018 is up for codex: chaos daemons.

Just 2 changes:

Page 126 – Warp Surge
Change the rules text of this Stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem at the start of any phase. Select a
unit of Daemons from your army; until the end of the
phase, you cannot re-roll saving throws for this unit, but
its invulnerable save is improved by 1 (to a maximum
of 4+).’

Page 130 – Hellforged Artefacts
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph
to read:
‘If your army is led by a Warlord with the Daemon
Faction keyword, you may give one of the following
Hellforged Artefacts to a Character with the Daemon
Faction keyword in your army.’


Ouch if you play Tzeentch and did they really need to clarify what they meant by Daemon Character in the codex?

Nope. Warp Surge changes the actual save value; being ephemeral adds one to your save rolls. Tzeentch still gets a 3+; they just removed the ability to get a 2+.

 Irbis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
That's not exactly how math works. an increase in armor save from 3+ to 2+ causes ap- guns to cause half the casualties, an increase in armor save from 6+ to 5+ does not.

Bolter vs an ork

2*.6666*.5*.83333 (6+ armor save): .555 unsaved wounds.
2*.6666*.5*.6666 (5+ armor save): .444 unsaved wounds.

It's about 20% less damage.

Wrong. I like how you tried to muddy the issue by throwing variables that have nothing to do with the stratagem into the above. If you want to take everything, even the color of the table, into equation, how about you do actually correct version and include the point costs of the DG and horde models, then multiply expected wpp in both cases by stratagem change - suddenly, it will be just like I described

It is...a very weird thing to be accused of "adding variables" when my response was literally to your claim that "Each AP - gun is going to wound half the number of orks it would before" and I chose for my example....the most ubiquitous Ap- gun in the entire game to demonstrate that no, it's not HALF, it's 80%. What does the "wounds per point" have to do with "NUMBER OF ORKS"?

Works for any ap- weapon you like, too. Lasgun? .2777 dead orks with no strat, .221 with strat, 20% less. Scatter laser? 1.47 dead orks no stratagem, 1.18 with stratagem, 20% less. See, it's always 20% less, no matter what Ap- weapon you choose to use to illustrate it, because that's how math works. It's remarkably consistent that way.

I was not the one that introduced the variables "ap- weapon" or "ork" into this equation. You were. I just showed how you were incorrect by choosing one particular ap- weapon to illustrate my point.

Irbis, the scottsman is talking about that statement of yours:

 Irbis wrote:
Each AP - gun is going to wound half the number of orks it would before

The rest of your points stand, but that one was inaccurate.

tneva82 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

If you have a 6+ save and it becomes a 5+ you have increased your save by 100%, a marine increases his save by 25%.

But marines halve their casualties while orks only reduce casualties 20%

this is the correct way to evaluate this value.

Look out for Land Raiders!

All right, did Ogryn really need a nerf? Now they need a points slashing.

 cuda1179 wrote:
All right, did Ogryn really need a nerf? Now they need a points slashing.

My understanding is that it's not really a nerf but it nerfs something that soup was doing?

Slabshields grant +2 to your save rolls. People were using ways to grant Ogryn Bodyguards and Bullgryn Invulnerable Saves(I think one of the Knights has a stratagem for that?) and then stacking it with "Take Cover!", the Psyker power in the Guard book, and Slabshields' text...at least that's the impression I've been given.

EldarExarch wrote:
Am I the only one who sees an issue with the new fortify defenses stratagem?

Ins't it disproportionately far more powerful for armies such as DG in comparison to other armies, say Orks/GSC for instance.

A 2+ save for your ENTIRE army is far more significant than a 5+ or 4+, but of course it costs both armies the same to accomplish.

Poor balance GW....poor poor balance

Wut lol?

What's everyone's take on the changes to flipbelt?

I personally am pretty upset at the change to flip belt and fly.

Make them always measure distance, done. One of the main reasons I play pure harlequins is because I can leap into the middle and slam into support units. I like forcing my opponents to think about positioning and movement because turn two I can be ANYWHERE.

Now, every form of bubble wrap will stop me dead. I never once thought that units with "fly" ignored vertical distance, they just moved at an angle or simply skirted around obstacles.

If I am outside half range for fusion pistols (3") then what wizzardry would I need to then claim I am close enough to guarantee a charge? You can't be over nine inches away, within 12 inches, outside 3" AND within one inch of a unit!

I wonder why they changed it to movement phase only... seems like a fairly major need for a somewhat average army... pity, but maybe it was a more powerful army than I thought.

Lemondish wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
Am I the only one who sees an issue with the new fortify defenses stratagem?

Ins't it disproportionately far more powerful for armies such as DG in comparison to other armies, say Orks/GSC for instance.

A 2+ save for your ENTIRE army is far more significant than a 5+ or 4+, but of course it costs both armies the same to accomplish.

Poor balance GW....poor poor balance

Wut lol?

I think I know what hes getting at. Take an army like Harlequins for example.

If they go second that stratagem pretty much does nothing for them. They don't really rely on armour saves at all, so don't gain anything from a cover bonus.

Oh well its not like anyone's losing anything with this new stratagem being a thing.

Spoletta wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Tournament soup builds have gotten a few corners shaved off (no more multiple-CP-regen-rolls and a few more expensive stratagems), but there's still nothing preventing you from taking ten extra CP from random Guardsmen in the first place, which means all the Imperial armies are going to continue being designed around the idea that you've got 3-400pts of random Guardsmen floating around plugging any holes in your list.

Woo. Such a fantastic set of changes setting us up for a whole new raft of army builds rather than the endless cookie-cutter sea of guardsmen-Dominus Knight-Marine characters soup lists.

Yeah. And if anything, they doubled down on guardsmen farms being all but required by raising the cost of strategems so a pure army is going to have a lot less to work with. If anything, Imperial soup gained an even bigger advantage over mono-dex armies.

They increased the cost of ONE stratagem by ONE CP, for non IK players.

Sure, pure IKs are more likely to soup true. But is quite a different statement than "Imperial soup gained an even bigger advantage over mono-dex armies", which is false. This change has brought down the power of soup considerably. The next top lists IMHO will not be soups, at least not all of them.

One? The holy trio(IG+knight+BA) got at least 2 strategems upped. Nevermind other armies like agents of vect

Am I missing something on the Fly Rule?

To me, it looks like they just clarified it as a Movement Phase only thing.
I have never played it as anything other than a Movement Phase ability. Fly isn't even mentioned in the BRB rules for charging.
I saw the Vertical Distance thing, but Am I missing this Big Bad Nerf somewhere?

FLy rules didn't specify it was only for movement phase but when it's moving. It's hard to arque charge move isn't movement. Thus fly WAS usable in charge phase(proof also being how before GW specified that if you are 10" up but 2" horizontally you need 2" charge due to fly allowing to ignore vertical distance...).

So you played it actually wrong. Before you ignore horizontal distance and could fly over intervening models. No more those.

So, they clarified the rule to be used only in the movement phase, the way I played it, and not for any other "movement".
Meaning I was playing it correctly and others were not.
You can still move over intervening models in the movement phase.
They just added the vertical distance measurement for charges back in.

Not that much of a big deal if you plan your movements correctly.

Grappling Hooks still let you ignore vertical distances when Charging?

 helgrenze wrote:
So, they clarified the rule to be used only in the movement phase, the way I played it, and not for any other "movement".
Meaning I was playing it correctly and others were not.
You can still move over intervening models in the movement phase.
They just added the vertical distance measurement for charges back in.

Not that much of a big deal if you plan your movements correctly.

Umm no they CHANGED it. If it was originally like that how come they clarified you needed 2" to charge if you were 12" up but 2" horizontally?

This was change to nerf slamquinus.

If you think location of rule is more important than actual text of rule as to where rule can be used do you use rerolls only in psychic phase? After all rerolls are only mentioned on psychic phase section but not elsewhere...

Before fly rule said it works when moving. That was only requisite. You move. Ergo you used fly whether it was movement, psychic, shooting, assault or fight phase. GW now errata'ed it to be only in movement phase.

If rules would need to be everywhere it might apply that would be lots of copy&pasting! 8th ed has that already too much but even to that some limits tyvmj

 AduroT wrote:
Grappling Hooks still let you ignore vertical distances when Charging?

Yeah. Grappling Hooks and Grey Knight Interceptors can still do the vertical charge-trick.

Reivers could never charge/consolidate/pile-in over models though. Grey Knight Interceptors are now the sole masters of that particular stunt.

#greyknightstotallyOP

tneva82 wrote:


Before fly rule said it works when moving. That was only requisite. You move

Agreed that this is a change. GW are pretty good with things like this nowadays: they tend to use ‘Movement phase’ (with the capitalisation) whenever they want to restrict things to specific phases.

The fly rule change was probably made to nerf smash captains abit. Consider how small the footprint a smash captain is, and yet, that thing hits so hard if you pour enough CP into it, it can even take down a knight. This fly rule change makes it so that you can bubble wrap against a flying smash captain. Otherwise, its exceedingly difficult to prevent a smash captain from a flying charge right past any bubble wrap directly into your key units.

On the chaos side though, daemon princes are now even more nerfed due to the fly nerf.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The fly rule change was probably made to nerf smash captains abit. Consider how small the footprint a smash captain is, and yet, that thing hits so hard if you pour enough CP into it, it can even take down a knight. This fly rule change makes it so that you can bubble wrap against a flying smash captain. Otherwise, its exceedingly difficult to prevent a smash captain from a flying charge right past any bubble wrap directly into your key units.

On the chaos side though, daemon princes are now even more nerfed due to the fly nerf.

Yes but in typical GW style fixing the trouble of smashhammer they took a giant hammer and swung it hard hitting not only original target but also stuff that DIDN'T need nerf.

tneva82 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The fly rule change was probably made to nerf smash captains abit. Consider how small the footprint a smash captain is, and yet, that thing hits so hard if you pour enough CP into it, it can even take down a knight. This fly rule change makes it so that you can bubble wrap against a flying smash captain. Otherwise, its exceedingly difficult to prevent a smash captain from a flying charge right past any bubble wrap directly into your key units.

On the chaos side though, daemon princes are now even more nerfed due to the fly nerf.

Yes but in typical GW style fixing the trouble of smashhammer they took a giant hammer and swung it hard hitting not only original target but also stuff that DIDN'T need nerf.

Yeah, nerfing smashcap by nerfing fly and conversely buffing cheap chaff bubble wrap in 8th freaking edition....did we REALLY need a buff to cheap chaff bubble wrap....

When using abilities that allow you to Move As If It's The Movement phase, do you Fly normally? For example, Swarmlords Hive Commander on Gargoyles, or Warp Time or Teilight Pathways on a unit in the psychic phase?

I think the change to Fly was the only real misstep with this FAQ. Like others have said, they want to nerf smash captains which is fine, but it hurts other units too much that were not a problem. The ability to ignore vertical distance when charging was the only thing that made Assault Marines even marginally useful in friendly games. If you cannot use them(or other similar flying assault units) to target units in high up cover locations or to jump over a line of chaff to hit a support unit what purpose do they serve at all?

In classic fashion, rather then simply adjust the cost of blood angel captains, they decide to use a broad stroke and hit everything with similar movement. When they first started FAQ'ing things this edition I gave them some wiggle room for making that error, but at this point it is pretty embarrassing for them. If you don't like the way a unit you create is being exploited then target that unit, what was the point in everything having unique bespoke rules all on their own sheet if your still patching the problems with a shotgun approach?

Hopefully they learn and CA2 course corrects. Because as of now, the list they didn't like from NOVA, ended up stronger. It's MORE important to have cheap screening guard that prvide your castellan CP's then ever.

EDIT Oh and how terrible is it that the only list that challenged that build using morty and magnus just took double the hit lol Now they cannot charge over the screen, and their horrors are less durable.