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 Just Tony wrote:

This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as "Stockholm Syndrome".

IDK, I actually just rather like it. It could benefit from being a little shorter in line with the other films, but it contains quite a bit of my favorite material across all of them. At this point though this entire forum is an exercise in mandating a hatred for the movie so I'm not sure what point there is in SW topics in general these days.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as "Stockholm Syndrome".

IDK, I actually just rather like it. It could benefit from being a little shorter in line with the other films, but it contains quite a bit of my favorite material across all of them. At this point though this entire forum is an exercise in mandating a hatred for the movie so I'm not sure what point there is in SW topics in general these days.

Yes, I too cease to see any point in discussing something when everyone doesn't agree with me.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as "Stockholm Syndrome".

IDK, I actually just rather like it. It could benefit from being a little shorter in line with the other films, but it contains quite a bit of my favorite material across all of them. At this point though this entire forum is an exercise in mandating a hatred for the movie so I'm not sure what point there is in SW topics in general these days.

Yes, I too cease to see any point in discussing something when everyone doesn't agree with me.

Yeah odd that......

Perhaps if the OP had not been so dismissive of anyone who was not in love with the TLJ it might have helped.

Those who dare to disagree with the sainted professional critics often suffer abuse for daring to do so - they are normally described as idiots, racists, sexist, ill informed etc etc,

No one here has accused those few who liked the film of any such thing.

Discussion implies an exchange of ideas. The sw threads all literal retreds of the same discussion from last year.

 Lance845 wrote:
Discussion implies an exchange of ideas. The sw threads all literal retreds of the same discussion from last year.

Well if some people are going to defend the TLJ to the death, then I don;t see why people are not allowed to express in contrast their specific critcism or how that will impact on future productions for good or ill.

Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?

I thought it was okay and I haven't watched it a second time XD

If I'm going to watch a Star Wars movie over and over it's going to be Rogue One, or Empire Strikes back. I find they have the most replay value

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?

I wouldn't and I have't - I don't have the time to waste on such gak

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Discussion implies an exchange of ideas. The sw threads all literal retreds of the same discussion from last year.

Well if some people are going to defend the TLJ to the death, then I don;t see why people are not allowed to express in contrast their specific critcism or how that will impact on future productions for good or ill.

I didnt say not allowed. I said all the sw discusions are the same. Supporting how pointless it is.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Alternatively, in terms of producing a spectacular space opera, simple ideas executed spectacularly.

Oh don't get me wrong, Star Wars is brilliant. I think that episodes 4 & 5 are two of the greatest movies ever made, and episode 6 plus Rogue One & Solo are excellent too. But even these all have their flaws within the plot. But I don't mind that. I drive an Alfa Romeo, a car riddled with design flaws. Yet I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know what I mean?

Back on point, I just can't imagine where they'll take the story next, purely because VIII derailed the narratives started by VII so much. And now that so much of it (Rey's parents, Snoke, The Knights Of Ren) apparently don't matter, I just feel like, why should I care what happens next then? Many bits of VIII felt like an end of a trilogy rather than a middle. Scuppered a lot of it imo.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?

I was hoping it would improve the second time around. That was my mistake.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?

I wouldn't and I have't - I don't have the time to waste on such gak

We are in the same boat partner. I'll see a movie that people tell me is bad so I can see for myself. Never though have I watched a movie which I hated - twice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Alternatively, in terms of producing a spectacular space opera, simple ideas executed spectacularly.

Oh don't get me wrong, Star Wars is brilliant. I think that episodes 4 & 5 are two of the greatest movies ever made, and episode 6 plus Rogue One & Solo are excellent too. But even these all have their flaws within the plot. But I don't mind that. I drive an Alfa Romeo, a car riddled with design flaws. Yet I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know what I mean?

Back on point, I just can't imagine where they'll take the story next, purely because VIII derailed the narratives started by VII so much. And now that so much of it (Rey's parents, Snoke, The Knights Of Ren) apparently don't matter, I just feel like, why should I care what happens next then? Many bits of VIII felt like an end of a trilogy rather than a middle. Scuppered a lot of it imo.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?

I was hoping it would improve the second time around. That was my mistake.

Haha - fair enough. Lesson learned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
I thought it was okay and I haven't watched it a second time XD

If I'm going to watch a Star Wars movie over and over it's going to be Rogue One, or Empire Strikes back. I find they have the most replay value

For me it's RotJ - Nostalgia and was the first SW movie I saw. Really though even the prequels are worth re-watching. It's jsut Vll and Vlll I have no desire to watch again. R1 - seen it 3-4 times. Solo I've seen twice and I thought it was just an average movie.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?

I usually give films I didn't like or was unsure about a second chance, seeing things in bad mood, tired, etc can impact ones opinion, admittedly this hasn't been the case with anything recent (BR2049 got close but that's a good film but so different from BR its a stretch to be tagged as a sequel)

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question. If you though TLJ was gak - why would you watch it a second time?

Because people I normally find to have similar tastes to mine in films kept telling me it was a good film that gets better on repeat viewings, and contrary to the common portrayal of People Who Didn't Care For TLJ I am actually capable of realising that a first impression isn't necessarily an accurate impression, so I gave it a fair shake. It was still guff(IMO), and I still found the same things bothersome/annoying/laughable, but it was still a valuable experience because now I know for certain not to trust the opinions of the aforementioned people about films ever ever again

I'm not a huge fan of JJ Abrams because at this point he's become pretty predictable, but for those who were disappointed with TLJ it should be a small comfort that Abrams is continuing the franchise rather than Rian Johnson. The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders, and it's not because he didn't try or want to do a good job, it's because even he had no idea what kind of movie he wanted to make. Is it a crime caper? A serious deconstruction of Star Wars? A comedy? If you watch making of footage it's pretty clear that not even he knew. Pretty hard to end up in port when the captain has no idea where the ship is going.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I'd lose my mind too and not in a good sense. Rey being revealed a nobody was GREAT character moment for her. "Secret special background" would only make her even more of a special snowflake and she sure doesn't need any more of that. When they had such a messianic character in the prequels it went over like a wet sock. Now she actually has a touch of "character who rises to occasion and beats the crap odds given at birth" swagger at her. Furthermore, Star Wars trope "everyone is related or somehow connected to other characters" got old already by RotJ, to say nothing about later movies and EU.

That’s a good point actually. I never really thought of it that way. If they hadn’t made her so OP and instead gave her a more realistic training curve, they’d have had a perfect set up there.

Lack of foreshadowing with her Force ability is the real problem. I don't think she is 'overpowered', much less 'Mary-Sue' in other respects, her abilities are roughly on par with Luke. She's skilled fighter (believable), skilled gearhead (also believable), decent pilot (slightly less so but borderline acceptable), can't shoot and is somewhat naive. But suddenly becoming very powerful Force user without any previous hints of abilities to that direction is simply bad writing. Luke needed 2 movies to become skilled with Force, Rey needed like 10 minutes. Even with Anakin, they had some buildup (his 'Jedi reflexes' which allowed him to compete in podracing).
They should have given her at least something to hint to that direction, like demonstration of Jedi prescience (dodges a blaster shot - Finn is all "How did you do that? -Did what?") or very least some kind of prophetic dreams.

 Luciferian wrote:
The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..

Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.

Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.

Hey, I said it was my opinion. In my opinion, it is an objectively bad movie, for reasons I'm sure no one needs rehashed here.

Force Ghost Luke should haunt Ben, wearing him down until that and a confrontation with a crazed Hux forces him to the side of the Resistance.

 insaniak wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..

Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.

Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.

Nah nah nah nah nah. You don't get to play the "preconceptions" card when the director has explicitly and repeatedly stated that their intent was to "subvert expectations", and that they believe if they don't piss off half the audience of a film they've not made a good film. People went in expecting a Star Wars movie and got a peach floating in absinthe served in a bowler hat with a wookie pelt draped over it, they are perfectly entitled to feel cheated. Also - "so many"? Is there some grand shift in opinion going on? Because that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see the rabidly pro-TLJ segment of the nerd media crowing about, and they don't appear to be.

 Riquende wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Empire ALSO ended where it started...

I dunno, I feel like there was an important line in the middle film of the trilogy, maybe something that turned the whole story on its head (for the protagonist at least). A truly epic line, destined to be repeated as a hallmark of the series for decades.

I think it was something about booze money?

.... I know.

 insaniak wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..

Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.

Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.

Funny becuase the vitirol directed at the people who dared disagree with the so called professional critics was part of the problem, being told that you are racist, sexist or similar just becuase you think a film is not very good is out of order.

And again you go for the "Ohh but superfans" - Actually some of us just went into it hoping for a bit of entertainment like Star Wars films used to be, for some of us they were never deep or a special life experience - just a bit of fun - but they killed stone dead with tedious plots and worse characters before a trip to magical casino world to release some slave horses

Instead we go bored by a lazy pathetic attempt at making a film, with no worth as entertainment and certaily nothing deeper - why would I waste another 3 hours of m life watching total gak like that?

It made plenty of money becuase the critics lied about it up front for whatever reason (pressure, lack of interest, bribery, incompetance) and also lots of people went to watch the new Star Wars film.

In all actuality, I don't really care what they do with the last episode in the series.

My love for Star Wars dies at the mention of Midichlorians.

See this is what i was saying. Lets all have THIS conversation again.

Hey morden. You werent racist/sexist. But racist sexists chimed in with their racism/sexism. Comments directed at them are not comments directed at you.

Your rebuttle. But they said things i didnt like and we all got lumped together by the leftist wakkos.

In counter. There are wakkos on all sides. Why are you offended by wakkos who are yelling at wakkos?

And so forth.

Im so glad that 12 months later we can say the same things in exactly the same way in the dozenth thread on the topic.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Nah nah nah nah nah. You don't get to play the "preconceptions" card when the director has explicitly and repeatedly stated that their intent was to "subvert expectations", and that they believe if they don't piss off half the audience of a film they've not made a good film.

Er... wouldn't that be exactly the time to play the preconceptions card...? On account of it being, as you say, the specific goal of the director?

People went in expecting a Star Wars movie and got a peach floating in absinthe served in a bowler hat with a wookie pelt draped over it, they are perfectly entitled to feel cheated.

Meh, if people got that, it's because they were over-analysing the whole thing. I went in expecting a Star Wars movie, and got something with space battles, lightsabers, amusing one-liners and a kicker soundtrack. Left happy.

Clearly, YMMV.

Also - "so many"? Is there some grand shift in opinion going on? Because that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see the rabidly pro-TLJ segment of the nerd media crowing about, and they don't appear to be.

Speaking of over-analysing... I wasn't making some grand statement based on statistics, I was mentioning a common theme that I've seen, on this forum and elsewhere. I'm sure there are plenty of people who disliked it the first time and didn't like it any better the second... but I've also seen a lot of people saying they enjoyed it more the second time through.

Again, YMMV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

And again you go for the "Ohh but superfans" - .

I don't recall mentioning 'superfans'... If I did, it would have been to point out that I was one, and have been since I was about 5.

I never suggested that people didn't like it because they were superfans. I simply suggested that some people were put off by it not being what they expected... which Yodhrin subsequently pointed out was exactly what the director intended, so I'm not sure what there is to take exception with in that statement.

 Luciferian wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of JJ Abrams because at this point he's become pretty predictable, but for those who were disappointed with TLJ it should be a small comfort that Abrams is continuing the franchise rather than Rian Johnson. The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders, and it's not because he didn't try or want to do a good job, it's because even he had no idea what kind of movie he wanted to make. Is it a crime caper? A serious deconstruction of Star Wars? A comedy? If you watch making of footage it's pretty clear that not even he knew. Pretty hard to end up in port when the captain has no idea where the ship is going.

I would honestly prefer Rian Johnson to direct IX rather than Abrams. I'd rather see discuss an ambitious catastrophe than a low-fruit embarrassment.

Fair enough, I'd say we've all certainly had plenty of entertainment from the initial admission price for TLJ, if that's how you measure it!

For those asking why some of us end up watching films we dislike multiple times, some of us have no choice; we have kids.

And put me in the "liked it better with repeat viewings" camp. TLJ may have been gak Star Wars, but it is delightful schlock.

Backfire wrote:
[She had Force powers because sometimes young people living in desert planets are strong in Force. You see, it's like poetry, it rhymes...

The trick being, Luke was quite strong in the Force, yet STILL needed to be trained by Yoda before he could do the stuff Rey does even in the FIRST movie. Little Anakin was VERY strong in the force, and again needed years of training to USE that strength in a practical way.

Rey just downloads the skill from the matrix in five seconds whenever she needs it, apparently. I guess the franchises are connected somehow. Who knew?

 insaniak wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
The blame for TLJ's (in my opinion) failure rests squarely on his shoulders,..

Honestly, I feel that the 'blame' for that $1.3bn 'failure' rests squarely on the shoulders of internet hyperbole.

Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, but it was nowhere near the trainwreck that the internet would have everyone believe, and the sheer amount of vitriol for it online genuinely puzzled me. It's hard not to think that a lot of the complaints stem from it simply not being the movie people expected, rather than from it being objectively bad - which would certainly explain why so many people thought it was better the second run through, when they weren't running it up against their preconceptions.

I think you're both right and wrong. People were very upset it wasn't the movie they were expecting....because it wasn't really a Star Wars movie. The best analogy I can think of is TLJ is to Star Wars as Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is to Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Many fans hated it initially for being untrue to Heinlein SST, especially since it was a criticism of the earlier work, but eventually most came around after the shock or could compartmentalize and enjoy VSST for the different thing that it is. However, no one can realistically point to the two works and reconcile them into a coherent unity. It would be madness to try. Unless, of course, you've got $4 billion in sunken costs.

 Lance845 wrote:
See this is what i was saying. Lets all have THIS conversation again.

Hey morden. You werent racist/sexist. But racist sexists chimed in with their racism/sexism. Comments directed at them are not comments directed at you.

Your rebuttle. But they said things i didnt like and we all got lumped together by the leftist wakkos.

In counter. There are wakkos on all sides. Why are you offended by wakkos who are yelling at wakkos?

And so forth.

Im so glad that 12 months later we can say the same things in exactly the same way in the dozenth thread on the topic.

Yeah lets - you didn't listen or care the first time - you didn't this time.

IMO its not fun, clever, subversive or any of the other crap made up about it - its lazy, badly writen, terribly paced, overlong, boring, and full of awfully portrayed characters - I cetaintly don't have a hidden motive, I don't consider Star Wars a sacred text or similar, I did like the Force Awakens - nothing special but hey we still have the same boring arguments put forward by people to explain why they didn;t like a film becuase it can't be the films fault it must be the viewers.

"Oh but you just went expecting X Y Z" And Mr Rian Johnson is such a clever clever man that he did something different," "Look all these critics said so - no one can argue with them!"

Nope I went in to the cinema to be entertained, I spent my money and got gak for it, it was a complete waste of my time and money and then I get told

"Nah you probably didn'tt understand it" or "what is the hidden reason that you feel you have to say these horrible things about such a special snowflake of a film. What is wrong with you?."

Same old crap dished out about it.

I don't care if people like it or dislike it - what makes me angry is people telling ME what I "really" mean or why I "really" don't like something. We all like different things for different reasons.