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PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k? I sort of hope they don't so that event actually carries some meaning in the universe.
Yes, because even though Cadia itself might be gone...you still have all of the Regiments that were raised from Cadia that are fighting elsewhere in the galaxy. Their whole schtick has always been that they're the most widely spread Regiments thanks to the militarized nature of the planet itself.
In this article they talk about the "Vigilant Guard" which I think might be what they update the cadians into (since vigilus is basically cadia anyways). Obviously vigilant guard might just mean the guard forces stationed on vigilus. I would expect them to look fairly similar to cadians since a more plain look is probably for the best but making them into a new force might make it easier to integrate some new Cawl-tech on them.
We know what the "Vigilant Guard" is, thanks to the Vigilus book. It's a Guard founding on Vigilus that is better known for "their unwavering faith in the Emperor" than their skill at arms. Battalions of Cadian Gate survivors were brought to Vigilus specifically to train the Vigilant Guard.
TLDR version of things:
Vigilant Guard weren't exceedingly well-trained from the outset but were forced to have Ministorum elements within their Regiments because of reasons. The description of them is a bit closer to the description of those Regiments that the Ministorum are extremely close to skirting the lines of outright owning them than anything else.
I just don't imagine GW redoing Guard without any sort of significant changes to equipment and looks. The Gloomspite Gitz sort of bucked that trend and showed that they are willing to do it but more often than not they introduce a separate unit. So I wouldn't be surprised if vigilant guard drops with assault lasguns as their primary weapons and phosphor mortars etc.
Whatever the case ends up being I really hope they do get some new troops though, even though cadians hold up fairly well you can just see how "airy" those sprues are. A newer kit would fit twice as much on it..
Unfortunately, using Age of Sigmar as an example is a bit counter to the trends we've seen in 40k. The better example would be the Tau Fire Warriors, where we saw the addition of the "Breacher" variant to the box.
I'd also legitimately be surprised to see Infantry Squads retain access to Mortars. It seems like a slam dunk way to neuter a lot of the whining about Infantry Squads.
I'm hoping that the look of rein and rause from blackstone fortrress and the troops from the Elucidian star striders from the the rogue trader box will herald the direction of future guard deaigns to come. Very cool designs for both.
Kanluwen wrote: Why would the House troops for a Rogue Trader be the look for Guard models in the future?
Rein and Raus, I totally could see though. If only to highlight that they aren't part of the "Regiment" proper.
The two designs work for the general trend in Imperial power armor ; the house troops would make the more elite, baroque armored and “mote important” troops (and be a nice replacement for the Vostroyans, who had a similar vibe to them) and the rein & rause style mimics the primaris- a classic redesign with some nodern sensibilities and aesthetics for what “future military designs” might be like.
Bobthehero wrote: Gulliman takes too much space in 40k already, keep him out of the Guard business.
Gulliman isn't just the Ultramarine Primarch, he's the "supreme commander of the Imperium armed forces" the "commander in chief" as it where. thus any changes to ANY part of the IoM will occur under his watch, doesn't mean he'll be super involved but that somewhere along the lines he'd sign off on it.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Carlovonsexron wrote: I'm hoping that the look of rein and rause from blackstone fortrress and the troops from the Elucidian star striders from the the rogue trader box will herald the direction of future guard deaigns to come. Very cool designs for both.
Damn straight. Not only do I hope that they set the example for a possible future plastic Ratling sniper/saboteur kit, but I also hope that their chest plate design features in future IG infantry plastics. It’s a good example of a gothic sci fi design that suits the Imperium well.
PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k?
Sorry what? Cadia doesn't exist anymore? I know I've been out of the hobby for years but I never knew that was a thing..?
The way I hear tell, copyright is everything to GW now. IG is difficult because everyone has future soldier types knocking about. Maybe they'll look to totally update to something else and streamline the lot. All this talk of making all the regiments available in new boxes sounds laughably wishful, people have been hoping for that for like 15 years now and it's never happened.
I would expect that there will be several ranges updated in plastic and new ones created. I'm at a loss with the Cadians though -their relegation in the setting could indicate the range will be discontinued, that GW are moving towards less generic-looking soldiers and more heavily themed ones like Vostroyans, Tallarn, etc. On the other hand Cadians are probably the long standing best-sellers of the guardsmen model range, so why would they retire them?
PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k?
Sorry what? Cadia doesn't exist anymore? I know I've been out of the hobby for years but I never knew that was a thing..?
The way I hear tell, copyright is everything to GW now. IG is difficult because everyone has future soldier types knocking about. Maybe they'll look to totally update to something else and streamline the lot. All this talk of making all the regiments available in new boxes sounds laughably wishful, people have been hoping for that for like 15 years now and it's never happened.
I mean... Were you asleep for a while? You missed the whole Blackstone Fortress being dropped on it? 13th Black Crusade?
I suggest watching a Let's play of the Prolgue to the new Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 game. That sumerises nicely why there is no Cadia anymore.
PiñaColada wrote: Do you guys really think they'd update Cadian guard although it's (it being cadia) no longer exists in 40k?
Sorry what? Cadia doesn't exist anymore? I know I've been out of the hobby for years but I never knew that was a thing..?
The way I hear tell, copyright is everything to GW now. IG is difficult because everyone has future soldier types knocking about. Maybe they'll look to totally update to something else and streamline the lot. All this talk of making all the regiments available in new boxes sounds laughably wishful, people have been hoping for that for like 15 years now and it's never happened.
"Cadia Stands" is the novel if you want details.
I'd love to see a re-conceptualization of the Guard line with a plan from the start to make them multi-regimental. It seems fairly simple to make each infantry/command/heavy weapon squad box cover at least 3 regiments without much trouble.
edit - my post was already addressed on the previous page.
I think you could have a single kit make Cadians, Tallarns, Steel Legion Mordians and Praetorians with minimal differences; sculpt the arms with epaulettes and add separate shoulder pauldrons. Alternative heads for the different regiments will do; paint will provide the rest of the distinction.
I was also thinking you could have a sprue of basic lasgun-armed infantry, a sprue of heavy and special weapons and a command sprue - that should be enough to make all the squad types in various combinations. Conscripts don't need different models any more than Veterans do (although some bits and pieces of equipment you can add to veterans would be good if there's room on the sprues - knives, bandoliers, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/21 20:03:18
HoundsofDemos wrote: Yea in hindsight, the Rogue trader release for kill team probably gives us a snap shot of what the future IG look like. Part of me has felt the loyal 32 being for useful for a competative list is GW wants to dump as much old product as possible before a reboot.
eh. I dunno. I think they were meant to look like a rogue traders retinue, fancier. A bit more atompunk than the norm of how I imagine guardsmen - more utilitarian on the whole. I think the Scions might more represent the approach for any new IG they do. Though I really am not too much a fan of them.
I hope they do something more 'generic' like the Cadians. The cadians are getting a little long in the tooth but were a good basic outfit to adapt to a host of different ends for unique conversions. I just would like a better looking updated cadians, with more detail on them in place of the rather bland almost smoothed out surfaces of them now. They could just do that, again, and add more upgrade/customization bits like forge world does for vets and stuff. Model designers could make shoudler pads swappable, even chest plates. Heads. Snap on trench coat options in optional packs. etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/21 21:53:09
HoundsofDemos wrote: Yea in hindsight, the Rogue trader release for kill team probably gives us a snap shot of what the future IG look like
The helmets, shoulderpad, kneepads, and coats on the Veterans are all far more ornate than what GW currently produces for Cadians, even if you chalk up a lot of it being for a Rogue Trader vs standard trooper.
The Death Cult Assassin is hugely revamped from the =Inquisitor= design.
I can totally see GW doing something along these lines going forward.
Love those models. I especially like how the lasguns are the exact same model as the Cadians one (minis the stock) but are slimmer and better proportioned. Hopefully a sign of things to come.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/21 22:29:49
I think it is far more likely that the Renegade Guardsmen in the Blackstone Fortress box represent the future of the Guard model line (minus the chaos bits obviously). The Imperial version of these guys are even featured in a piece of artwork in, I believe, the Knight Codex. I WISH I could find that artwork now, it has three definitely non-Cadian guardsmen in it that look exactly like the Blackstone Renegades, but non-renegade.
I would love to buy a few squads of guard that looked like the starstriders. Or I'd like to see them redo guard somewhat similiar to the orlock sculpts. I was dissapointed the Orlocks use autoguns, I really like their models otherwise.
I for one would really like to see GW lean into the WWI aesthetic that the tanks incorporate. Greatcoats, Gas-masks. Stuff that would make it easy to paint the hundred or so guardsmen that an army generally needs. I know DKoK exists, but cheap also needs to come into play when they expect you to buy models in those quantities.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think it is far more likely that the Renegade Guardsmen in the Blackstone Fortress box represent the future of the Guard model line (minus the chaos bits obviously). The Imperial version of these guys are even featured in a piece of artwork in, I believe, the Knight Codex. I WISH I could find that artwork now, it has three definitely non-Cadian guardsmen in it that look exactly like the Blackstone Renegades, but non-renegade.
Page 65 Imperial Knight codex, but they do just look like updated cadian not in heroic scale
Otto von Bludd wrote: I think it is far more likely that the Renegade Guardsmen in the Blackstone Fortress box represent the future of the Guard model line (minus the chaos bits obviously).
Take away the skullz and spikez and skullz on spikez, and it's clearly an update to the Cadians
Stormonu wrote: I think the top brass has recognized they’ve got too many SKU’s (or equivalent) and they need to do some consolidation and streamlining.
If that were the case we wouldn't be getting things like 6 completely different buggie/trakk releases for Orks.
I have very little faith in GW giving the Guard a damn thing anytime soon. They're an army that routinely goes through entire editions without a new codex (happened to them during 4th and 7th edition, though 3rd had two).
You see how the weapons of the Intercessor and Hellblaster kit can be made into 1 of three different kind of guns? Think they could do that for the lasguns of an IG kit? The same gun but in different guides?
Future War Cultist wrote: What do you think GW will do it with? Especially Infantry wise. Because as I look at the current range of ancient plastic cadians/even more ancient plastic catachans, with the awkward needing to swap out minis from sets to put in heavy weapon teams bought from another kit, and the total lack of options available to them (not just in the kit but rules wise too; Necromunda gangers have a wider range of weaponry) and the discontinued metals and so on, I just think the range is in a bit of a mess at the moment.
The vehicles/Scions are doing ok. And then you have plastic Ogryns of course. But the pyskers and ratlings are still metal/finecast, as are the regimental advisers. And in my opinion, the whole way that the range is presented is entirely out of date. Most kits today I think come with every option available don’t they? You don’t need to buy other kits to get unavailable parts for your units, just extra models.
And there’s a question of bases; if you could somehow cram a heavy weapon kit into a standard infantry set, you’d need to include the bigger base. However, what if the person doesn’t want to assemble them as a heavy weapon team? Will the set include spare bases for that?
There’s the question of regiments too; can gw continue to mantain multiple regiment kits? No other army is as varied in appearance as the IG, but can that justify making multiples of the same unit? It’s funny that in a way, we’ve never had more official easy to use IG customisation options available (skitarri, scions, ‘stealer cults, every Necromunda gang, AoS free peoples, the cadians and catachans etc.) but what will be the IG standard going forward? Personally I think it should be Necromunda regiments, as I said in another thread.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the Guard gets a make over al a Primaris Marines. The core theme of the army will remain, massed low strength shots and big tanks, arty and such. But the aestetic will change to reflect something more modern, maybe even like the Rouge Trader guardsmen.
@Kanluwen, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the feasibility of having more regiments kits. However, because it is becoming a sort of sub-thread within the thread, I've spoilered below:
Eh? Higher use means higher profit margins surely? If moulds wearing out is an issue, then spreading the load over 6 sets is surely better than the current two? Don't follow your logic there at all
Understand: They aren't renting machine time like (seemingly) most other companies do. They own the machines and the moulds. They have to pay upkeep, training, etc.
There's no "spreading the load over 6 sets" when you can't guarantee that they all will sell.
As of right now? We have 6 plastic Guard Infantry kits: Catachan and Cadian Company Command, Heavy Weapon, and Infantry Squads. Unless we see a significant rejigging of the contents of those kits to where Heavy Weapon Squads can just flatout be left out of the mix and the parts are instead in the Infantry Squad box? Your "6 sets" is actually 18.
I am fully aware of the number of sets needed- three new sprues per Regiment (see above post). I just don't think that is an insurmountable investment if done over several years.
My understanding of basic model economics is that plastic moulds have a high investment cost, and relatively low operating cost with a long lifespan. Therefore, if you are managing to max the lifespan on your moulds, you have made bank. If you have to replace your single Cadian sprue 6 times, or your 6 different regiments once each, the only difference in costs is development costs to create 6 different sprue designs (somewhat reduced by the concepts already existing), and some increased logistics costs due to 6 different boxes. But the mould costs are going to be identical. Even if you end up replacing the Cadian mould 7 times in the time the others get replaced once, that surely is no different to replacing the Cadian mould 11 times as otherwise.
The primary consideration is whether they will sell enough sprues to reach their investment over the lifetime. I don't have access to GW's data of course, but I can look at other models they have produced for inferences as to how affordable it is for them to chuck out a plastic sprue. This is precisely why I looked at SM Captains, because here we had a solid, well loved pair of sprues with most of the options available to a Space Marine Commander already available. Then GW preceded to release a series of mostly cosmetic options for replacement Captains. Very, very few other GW products have received this treatment for comparison.
Now, Captains (especially the two limited releases) are not especially high-volume releases. They only fill one role within a list, which most people need few of in comparison to squads. This matches the typical economics for resin/metal miniatures of small production runs, not the typical plastic one of large production runs, yet GW did it anyway. That is why I looked at Captains. AM armies also tend to be very large due to the low points costs, further bolstering the numbers.
Space Marine Captains in plastic:
Old SM Commander box
Direct Only.
Space Marine Captain clampack with combi-grav and power sword
Direct Only.
I fail to see why direct only is of any relevance to this discussion? The question is not about availability, but how much GW has invested in producing multiple versions of the same model vs the profits recouped from that investment. The fact these models are direct only bears no relevance to the discussion at all of how many different IG builds could be released by GW- they could even move older kits, like the Catachans, to direct only in a directly comparable move.
LESM Captain with stormbolter and powerfist
LESM Captain with plasma pistol and powerfist (required buying the previous LE Captain to purchase)
Yeah, and remember that the first one wasn't really a thing that people "bought". You got them by ordering a certain amount during the holidays...which then allowed for you to get the other one.
Fair, so it ended up being a large-production run loss-leader. The second one though was much less available and in a release pattern much more typical of metal/resin miniatures.
SM Captain with power sword and plasma pistol (originally in the LE Shadow Force Solaq box)
SM Captain in Terminator armour (originally in a LE box too)
You're confusing "limited run" with "limited edition".
These two were not "limited editions". The models are still available. The boxed sets for them were either part of a campaign splash release(Shadow Force Solaq) or a Christmas bundle(Strike Force Ultima).
Probably, but I was referring to the boxsets, not the Captains. I think all of those sets bar the most recent have eventually had the HQs released separately. They were marketed as being exclusively initially though. I was more than happy to be able to get hold of some of the Captains in later releases having missed the initial boxes.
SM Primaris Captain.
Primaris != "old" Marines.
Chapter specific variants:
Deathwatch Captain
Named character--Artemis.
Blood Angels Terminator Captain
Revamp of the Space Hulk sculpt.
I'm not going to include the Space Wolf characters.
Just for fun, I will:
Krom, Ulrik, and the Iron Priest are the only ones in plastic that don't have multiple build options. Grimnar is a kit of either him on foot or with his crazy grav-sled.
Out of the 17 Space Wolves HQ options currently available by themselves, only 4 are specifically Space Wolves in plastic.
There's also an as of yet unreleased Lieutenant option.
Then there are at least three plastic starter-set Captains over the last 4 editions (2 generic, one DA).
Starter sets being the operative word there.
Those sets are loss leaders. That's why the kits are generally limited in terms of equipment and things of that nature.
These were mostly just mentioned for completeness- the 5 Space Marine Captains were the important ones. I forgot that Artemis retained his special character status- the others were all genericised, apart from Krom. I didn't go into detail for Space Wolves because they were not genericised, not because they had loads of options.
That is a LOT of plastic kits for one model, some in limited runs, all over the same timespan GW has produced 7 total sprues for Guardsmen infantry, with a further 5 for AM specialist infantry. I'm not saying there should be less SM Captains (I own almost all of those Captains), but clearly GW reckons they can still make a profit on a heavily saturated unit option, or they wouldn't keep making Captain variants, and now Lieutenants (which are in the same role now).
But they aren't making Captain variants now.
The last one was the Primaris Captain. There's been variations on that as promotional models, but otherwise we're not exactly drowning in them now are we?
And as for Primaris Lieutenants? There really haven't been that many. One promotional model, one for each of the 'major' Chapters(Ultramarines in Wake the Dead, Wolves in Tooth & Claw, DA and BA as solo blisters when their books dropped), and then the two from the starter set.
So all told we have the various profiles covered in one way or another, then there's some Chapter specific frippery for the Primaris side of things.
And then that Commander box you were pointing out earlier? That is literally billed as how to make non-Primaris Lieutenants.
Again, I don't see how whether Captains are being made now is relevant- the point is they did make a variety, which shows that it was economically viable for GW to do that at the time. This is about economics, not current production.
Remember that AM sprues cover a lot of different units- an infantry kit can make 4 different unit options. AM doesn't need many sprues per design to make a functioning alternate build.
An infantry kit can make 3 different unit options: Conscripts, Veterans, and Infantry Squads. Command Squads can have vastly different loadouts and either need options added to the sprues that would be ridiculously overcrowding things or options need to be cut out of the Command Squads to make things work.
The same goes for Heavy Weapon Squads and Special Weapon Squads.
And realistically, Conscripts should just be given their own damn kit. Strip them of the <Regiment> keyword and make it so they are Officio Prefectus instead(which is actually fluffier for everyone given the garbage tier fluff they keep shoveling out for Conscripts) and everyone's a winner.
I was thinking IS, Veterans, Conscripts, and Special weapons squads. You can leave Special weapons out, or stick them as a second option for Command squads perhaps, but when it comes down to it, 4 sprues (1 shared between regiments) can make 6 units. That is more than most units in the game. Only three new sprues are needed per additional regiment.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the two options are directly comparable, but I think GW is fully capable of making a plastic sprue for each major regiment and profiting from it.
Then why would you use the comparison to begin with?
Could they do it? Sure! They could also do what it looks like they've been doing and slowly move Regiments to look like they actually all have a standardized kit with occasional bits and bobs that are locally produced instead(read: what an Upgrade Pack would contain).
Because the number of comparisons available are limited. The Captain situation is indicative of what GW can reasonably manage, and I consider it a less favourable option than producing Guard kits in many ways.
Also, I have already used the most direct comparison above- the multiple different aesthetic options for the Space Marine Tactical squad.
Ok, so even if GW couldn't do all 6, I reckon they can absolutely maintain at 2, and maybe expand to 3 or 4 options. That would not be unreasonable at all.
Regarding the BSF renegades, I find those very interesting because of their gear.
They are clearly based on the standard Cadian template for body armour and fatigues, but have some key differences beneath the Chaos embellishments. First and foremost, the helmets are completely different- they look more like a stahlhelm than the bulky Cadian helmets. The respirators are also notably different, coming in two styles on the renegades which are both different to the Kasrkin-style Cadian ones.
The lasguns and laspistols are also very different. The lasguns interest me greatly, because after finally locating close-ups of them on the internet, they are clearly modified Lucius-pattern lasguns, like the DKoK use. The chief difference is the renegade lasguns have a cowling added over the cooling coils on the DKoK lasguns, and the scale is a bit more chunky, but they are clearly meant to be the same design with the rifle-style stock and the circle at the end of the receiver. This is very different to the Kantrael-pattern lasgun found on the Cadians.
However, the Voidsmen-at-arms also use a version of the Kantrael-pattern lasgun, except without without the stock, which I find interesting. These two units show that GW are happy to keep some elements of the Cadian designs in newer models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Future War Cultist wrote: You see how the weapons of the Intercessor and Hellblaster kit can be made into 1 of three different kind of guns? Think they could do that for the lasguns of an IG kit? The same gun but in different guides?
I like this idea a lot.
This image is a good starting point, and covers most of the main regiments.
You could have the basic receiver attached to the arms, with two available powerpacks (standard and curved), three barrel ends (bulky Kantrael style, carbine style, long-las), and a scope option.
That would be very fiddly though, so I think it is unlikely given the size of lasguns. It would allow a lot of customisation though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/22 18:33:54
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
I got the chance to play in the Anvil Industry 'bins' at a convention in Alexandria Palace. GW would never do anything like it, but you can really go wild (why they didn't think to make Catachan and Cadian torsos and legs match up is still beyond me...).
I'd be ok with a revamped Guard line, though I don't think GW has to be in any rush. I have a sizeable Cadian force, and I honestly think they still hold up. The Scions are nice models, but I think I'd go crazy trying to make a full army out of them given the amount of detail that are packed into them! Same with the troops from the Rogue Trader set pictured above, actually. I do notice that with both the traitor guard and the Rogue Traders, the proportions of the limbs are a lot more "realistic" (ie, thinner in profile).
On the other hand, It has been quite a while since the Guard have gotten anything major that is new...I think the Scions, Ogryn/Bullgrn, and Hydra kits were the last releases, and that was 5 or 6 years ago. My personal top 3 wish list would be:
-Great Coat infantry that could be used to represent DKoK and/or Steel Legion.
-Revamped rough rider models.
-A new plastic flyer (preferably a dedicated combat flyer like a Vulture or Thunderbolt)
Children of Stirba 
Order of Saint Pan Thera 
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
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