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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Are you really paying 1cp and a detachment slot {when that matters) for Greyfax?

If I'm playing a pure Deathwatch army it's usually one Battalion so the detachment slot doesn't matter much, and if I really need psychic defense I'm happier to pay 1CP for two denies than needing to buy a Librarian.

Although, in some cases, like mine, you are indeed taking 2 Battalions and need 4 HQs already. So a Libbie is a given.

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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can pay zero cp and throw him in a patrol det of GK, but then you are paying for GK strike squads, which are la crap,

Not in 8e, she doesn't have the Grey Knights keyword. You could get a CP back by spending 36pts on three single-model Acolyte units for a Vanguard Detachment if you really wanted to.

Addendum on Blackstar:

If you opponent allows it (See: most obliging opponent ever) The Corvus does allow you to do turn 1 shenanigans with a squad of vets, a Watch Captain, and a Beacon Angelis another squad into your enemies backfield, or objectives. This is mostly unblockable, and currently labeled BROKEN AS HELL.

...This is only turn 1 shenanigans if your opponent also doesn't know how transports work and allows you to disembark after moving the Blackstar (Valkyries have a special rule that lets you do this, the Blackstar doesn't), at which point you are actually just cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Are you really paying 1cp and a detachment slot {when that matters) for Greyfax?

If I'm playing a pure Deathwatch army it's usually one Battalion so the detachment slot doesn't matter much, and if I really need psychic defense I'm happier to pay 1CP for two denies than needing to buy a Librarian.

Although, in some cases, like mine, you are indeed taking 2 Battalions and need 4 HQs already. So a Libbie is a given.

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I've tried this, and I don't think the extra 5CP is worth spending the extra 200+pts on more HQs.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can pay zero cp and throw him in a patrol det of GK, but then you are paying for GK strike squads, which are la crap,

Not in 8e, she doesn't have the Grey Knights keyword. You could get a CP back by spending 36pts on three single-model Acolyte units for a Vanguard Detachment if you really wanted to.

Addendum on Blackstar:

If you opponent allows it (See: most obliging opponent ever) The Corvus does allow you to do turn 1 shenanigans with a squad of vets, a Watch Captain, and a Beacon Angelis another squad into your enemies backfield, or objectives. This is mostly unblockable, and currently labeled BROKEN AS HELL.

...This is only turn 1 shenanigans if your opponent also doesn't know how transports work and allows you to disembark after moving the Blackstar (Valkyries have a special rule that lets you do this, the Blackstar doesn't), at which point you are actually just cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Are you really paying 1cp and a detachment slot {when that matters) for Greyfax?

If I'm playing a pure Deathwatch army it's usually one Battalion so the detachment slot doesn't matter much, and if I really need psychic defense I'm happier to pay 1CP for two denies than needing to buy a Librarian.

Although, in some cases, like mine, you are indeed taking 2 Battalions and need 4 HQs already. So a Libbie is a given.

-

I've tried this, and I don't think the extra 5CP is worth spending the extra 200+pts on more HQs.

Thanks for that. I saw a BatRep recently where I swear the guy zoomed in, dropped, and then popped angelis. I may have mis interpreted what I was hearing, I was also painting at the time...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...Thanks for that. I saw a BatRep recently where I swear the guy zoomed in, dropped, and then popped angelis. I may have mis interpreted what I was hearing, I was also painting at the time...

Or people may have been accidentally cheating; just because they're filming a battle report doesn't mean they have much idea how the rules work. (I've watched plenty of 30k battle reports where people straight-up forget rules, pretend Rending confers AP2 against vehicles, miss that graviton guns are Heavy, run or sweep with Cataphractii...)

So, with all the hubbabalu about the new Bolter rule, it makes people want to start playing DW. They are my second army ever, and I freely admit, I was not ready to play them. They are not user friendly, and you need to have a lot of experience to be good with them.

Also, is there a good way to include wound sinks? Because I am seeing a lot of first turn losses in my future if i cant give my opponent something else to shoot at...maybe a attached squad of LRs?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've tried this, and I don't think the extra 5CP is worth spending the extra 200+pts on more HQs.

So do you think just 1 Battalion is enough CPs? I refuse to use Guard for farm CPs, so is 1 Battalion + two 1CP detachments going to be enough? That's only 10CPs

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 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've tried this, and I don't think the extra 5CP is worth spending the extra 200+pts on more HQs.

So do you think just 1 Battalion is enough CPs? I refuse to use Guard for farm CPs, so is 1 Battalion + two 1CP detachments going to be enough? That's only 10CPs

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Run SM scout BNs or Skitarii BNs. I always worry I don't have enough CPs, then I forget to spend it. People tell me you should spend 75% of your CP in the first turn, when you can do the most damage. I dunno. List building with DW is complicated enough without worrying about BS like CP. Besides, the power of DW doesn't come from CP, it's free. SO CP is only good for strats (Extremely situational) or re-rolls.

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've tried this, and I don't think the extra 5CP is worth spending the extra 200+pts on more HQs.

So do you think just 1 Battalion is enough CPs? I refuse to use Guard for farm CPs, so is 1 Battalion + two 1CP detachments going to be enough? That's only 10CPs

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Probably? It's not like DW are rotating ion shields or Vecting. Plus Lord of Hidden Knowledge exists and is good.

Why does everyone think the Command re-roll isn't mandatory every turn, if not every phase?
I could burn through CPs on Command re-rolls alone in the first 2 turns (if rolls are bad that shouldn't be). That should be part of everyone's list-building and tactics.

I'm not saying you should use it every time you fail a roll, but there are enough times in which a critical 3+ roll ends up being a 2. Or a D6 damage roll is a 1 or 2.
#CommandRerollislife

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I thought you can only do one "like" reroll per turn, such as one miss re-roll, or 1 failed morale re-roll.

???

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought you can only do one "like" reroll per turn, such as one miss re-roll, or 1 failed morale re-roll.

???

Per phase.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought you can only do one "like" reroll per turn, such as one miss re-roll, or 1 failed morale re-roll.

???

No, you can only do 1 of any specific Stratagem per phase. Since there is a Move, Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight & Morale Phase, it is entire possible to use the Command Re-roll Strat 6 times per turn. And I've come close. In general you want to "save" this for later in the game to get you out of a jam, but sometimes the jam comes early and you flub a roll that SHOULD have worked, didn't and mattered a lot.

Even as an Eldar player with some of the best Strats in the game, I still use at least 1/3 of my CPs on the Command Re-roll over the course of the game.

DW might not need it as much, however, since the WatchMaster gives all rerolls to hit and Mission Tactics gives reroll-1s to wound and Hellfire rounds wound on 2s. But I am sure there is good use for more than 10 CPs in a game, meriting the use of 4 HQs. And my list actually has 7 HQs because I am adding 3 Custodes Dawn-eagle Capts

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It’s probably best to use most command rerolls and stratagems earlier (see Lanchester’s Law)

losing a vet squad to bad invuln saves can have a nasty domino effect.

Quasistellar wrote:
It’s probably best to use most command rerolls and stratagems earlier (see Lanchester’s Law)

losing a vet squad to bad invuln saves can have a nasty domino effect.

In general, yes I agree. Although there is something to be said about having CPs left once your opponent runs out.
That is why I am building my DW to have double Battalions

Looping back on topic, this is one reason to consider DW Intercessors. While taking a list without Primaris can work because DW Vets are quite good and customizable to your needs, Intercessors are quite effecient in their role, while also being quite cheaper that an "optimized" Vet unit
90 points gets you a decent 5-man unit to plop in cover and throw out 10 SIA Bolt rifle shots. Spamming this can get you to the minimum Battalion quickly.

But on the flip side, DW Vets are needed to perform other tasks, mostly involving getting up close and personal.

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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


7. Their Psychic game is kinda trash, with the exception of Might of Heroes. So you get one super powered squad, and then a crappy HQ for the rest of the turn.

So I actually just made this mistake the other day. Might of Heros only affects one model so you can't just go and buff that ten man vanguard squad.




I personally don't like primaris marines. I got into Deathwatch because I really liked the Veteran kit.

I usually use 3 deep striking kill teams with storm bolters and 3-4 storm shields. I'll typically put the standard terminator and Vanguard Vet in those squads. Those guys get supported by Captains with jump packs or termi armor (Termi Captain With SB/Relic Blade and Bane bolts is now one of my favorite units.)

I'll then have some SB/SS and Frag Cannon Vets in rhinos. I may have a watch master along for the ride.

Since guard is my primary army, I'll usually rely on them for anti tank. But if I want to go full Deathwatch, I've got a really nice selection of dreadnoughts.

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've tried this, and I don't think the extra 5CP is worth spending the extra 200+pts on more HQs.

So do you think just 1 Battalion is enough CPs? I refuse to use Guard for farm CPs, so is 1 Battalion + two 1CP detachments going to be enough? That's only 10CPs

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Mostly? Yes. You can spend a lot of CP on rerolls but I don't find it to be worth the cost of getting mass quantities of CP; I only really use the reroll when it makes the difference between killing something big/scary and not killing it (roll 1 on a Watch-Master's melee damage against an enemy Warlord with 2W left, for instance). I usually go into pure Deathwatch games with 8CP, spend 2-3 on the Teleportarium, and spend the rest on tempest shells/hellfire shells/the +to wound stratagems if I find myself really needing to kill something.

I find DW to be very CP hungry, so I always run a double Battalion. That gives me a Watch Master and Captain for buffing backline units, so they don't all have to bunch up, and a Librarian who is just a utility option but sometimes powers like Null Zone or Psychic Fortress can be helpful. I then get a JP Captain to drop with my teleporting Kill Teams for the re-rolls 1s on plasma weapons. I find I burn through CPs really quickly due to the DW stratagems being very good. The various +1 to wound stratagems are excellent, especially when it comes to taking down vehicles and many of the anti-xenos ones are essential in games against those armies.

I don't burn through them at he same rate I do with my Blood Angels, but it's rare that I have more than 1-2 left by the end of the game.

I thought the vanguard vet/terminator/bike had to be in the combat squad to get the benefit. Putting them in the big unit then splitting them out means only the half they are in would get the bonus. Like the unit losing the bonus it they die.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I thought the vanguard vet/terminator/bike had to be in the combat squad to get the benefit. Putting them in the big unit then splitting them out means only the half they are in would get the bonus. Like the unit losing the bonus it they die.

Which bonus are you referring to?

 Galef wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
It’s probably best to use most command rerolls and stratagems earlier (see Lanchester’s Law)

losing a vet squad to bad invuln saves can have a nasty domino effect.

In general, yes I agree. Although there is something to be said about having CPs left once your opponent runs out.
That is why I am building my DW to have double Battalions

Looping back on topic, this is one reason to consider DW Intercessors. While taking a list without Primaris can work because DW Vets are quite good and customizable to your needs, Intercessors are quite effecient in their role, while also being quite cheaper that an "optimized" Vet unit
90 points gets you a decent 5-man unit to plop in cover and throw out 10 SIA Bolt rifle shots. Spamming this can get you to the minimum Battalion quickly.

But on the flip side, DW Vets are needed to perform other tasks, mostly involving getting up close and personal.

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If dual battalion I think the Intercessors are a great option. They give you the backline board control allowing your vet sqds to utilize deep strike, and at a reasonable price.

Quasistellar wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I thought the vanguard vet/terminator/bike had to be in the combat squad to get the benefit. Putting them in the big unit then splitting them out means only the half they are in would get the bonus. Like the unit losing the bonus it they die.

Which bonus are you referring to?

The fall back and shoot, the teleport, etc. The bonus you get if the terminator, bike or vanguard is still alive in your team. I thought it was int he unit on the table, not the unit in the list.