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The Watch Master giving full to hit rerolls is almost always worth including. Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Captain with the Beacon to teleport your scariest vet squad is another favourite of mine. Jump Pack Librarian with Might of Heroes and Null Zone helps buff up your tough units (Dreads mostly) and help take down their best units (Knights, etc)

Eldarain summed up the best DW HQs nicely. Artemis is unfortunately currently overpriced for what he brings to the table, I find myself often running him as a regular captain instead for a cheaper HQ option.

Eldarain wrote:The Watch Master giving full to hit rerolls is almost always worth including. Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Captain with the Beacon to teleport your scariest vet squad is another favourite of mine. Jump Pack Librarian with Might of Heroes and Null Zone helps buff up your tough units (Dreads mostly) and help take down their best units (Knights, etc)

ikeulhu wrote:Eldarain summed up the best DW HQs nicely. Artemis is unfortunately currently overpriced for what he brings to the table, I find myself often running him as a regular captain instead for a cheaper HQ option.

This is a question for both of you... while I know the Watch Master has his own model, the TH/SS Captain and Jump Pack Librarian don't seem to. How do you go about creating these models? Can you just put a TH/SS on a Space Marine body, paint it black, put a few special markings and/or ornamentation on it and call it a Captain? Can I just use a Vanguard Veteran or an Assault Marine painted with blue armor in places with a force stave and/or force sword and call it a Jump Pack Librarian?

Thanks in advance!

SG

There is an actual Captain kit in plastic that comes with all his weapon options and a jump pack. You can paint him how you want.

While the DW vets are certainly hard hitting and tough to shift. Intercessors are about as good IMO. Providing longer range and good boots on the ground.

With bolter discipline they are a lot better 36 inch double taps with ap -2???. They basically never need to leave their objective and sit on 2+ saves in cover with 2 wounds. Probably best taken in 5 mans.

Both are great units.

I'd probably not play DW without a healthy amount of each.

 Xenomancers wrote:
While the DW vets are certainly hard hitting and tough to shift. Intercessors are about as good IMO. Providing longer range and good boots on the ground.

With bolter discipline they are a lot better 36 inch double taps with ap -2???. They basically never need to leave their objective and sit on 2+ saves in cover with 2 wounds. Probably best taken in 5 mans.

Both are great units.

I'd probably not play DW without a healthy amount of each.

Seconded. Intercessors may not have the volume SB Veterans get but I find having AP on Hellfire rounds is valuable if you run up against stuff with a 2+ save and an Aggressor mitigates the lack of volume if you need to clear chaff.

 ServiceGames wrote:
This is a question for both of you... while I know the Watch Master has his own model, the TH/SS Captain and Jump Pack Librarian don't seem to. How do you go about creating these models? Can you just put a TH/SS on a Space Marine body, paint it black, put a few special markings and/or ornamentation on it and call it a Captain? Can I just use a Vanguard Veteran or an Assault Marine painted with blue armor in places with a force stave and/or force sword and call it a Jump Pack Librarian?

Thanks in advance!

SG

Converting regular marines into captains and librarians can indeed work. You can also purchase a captain and throw a DW shoulder pad on him if you want it to be an official captain model. Librarian would probably be easiest to do with VV or Assault marine and the appropriate weapon bits as you mentioned. Otherwise I suppose you could get a librarian model and throw a jump pack on it if you have an extra.

The Deathwatch conversion sprue (which they used to bundle with a bunch of kits, but as of me looking at the website right now is available only separately or bundled with an Apothecary, Intercessor box, or Terminator Captain) has 10 pauldrons sized appropriately for Intercessors or power-armoured Marines, and 2 Indomitus-pattern Terminator pauldrons. If you're using a plastic kit or a character blister with separate pauldrons it's a pretty straight plug-and-play part swap.

Do keep in mind: the Primaris character blisters and the Terminator Captain blister all have separate left pauldrons and are quick swaps, but if you want a Deathwatch version of the power-armour Librarian, any of the resin characters, or Primaris Reivers it will take some knife work.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ikeulhu wrote:
...Converting regular marines into captains and librarians can indeed work...Librarian would probably be easiest to do with VV or Assault marine and the appropriate weapon bits as you mentioned. Otherwise I suppose you could get a librarian model and throw a jump pack on it if you have an extra.

If you want to be very WYSIWYG with your Librarian the Grey Knight torsos are loose Psychic Hoods you can swap into arbitrary kits (use the back with a different breastplate and they don't have to look like Grey Knights while you do it), but as of writing this I see bits people selling Terminator torsos individually on Ebay but no power-armour torsos.

 Galef wrote:
and a melee weapon on you Sgt.

I've been thinking on this particular piece of advice for the last couple of hours. Why would I want a melee weapon on my Sergeant? I understand that the Stalker Pattern Boltgun is a Heavy Weapon which may cause some issues with a clear focus that Vet Squad. But with pretty much every other unit in the Squad being shooty, why put a melee weapon on the Sgt.? Why not something like twin bolt pistols, a melee weapon and a pistol (e.g., Power Maul & Plasma Pistol), or a combi-weapon like a Combi-Plasma?

Thanks in advance

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
Why would I want a melee weapon on my Sergeant?

Sergeants (and Black Shields) get three attacks. Any melee weapon you give one of them is going to be 50% more efficient than giving it to a standard Veteran.

Sterling191 wrote:
Sergeants (and Black Shields) get three attacks. Any melee weapon you give one of them is going to be 50% more efficient than giving it to a standard Veteran.

Wouldn't they still get three attacks if they took a ranged weapon or a ranged and melee weapon?

Thanks

SG

I almost always put a xenophase blade on my Watch sgts in main combat units, just because it's so unique to deathwatch.

 ServiceGames wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Sergeants (and Black Shields) get three attacks. Any melee weapon you give one of them is going to be 50% more efficient than giving it to a standard Veteran.

Wouldn't they still get three attacks if they took a ranged weapon or a ranged and melee weapon?

Thanks

SG

Yes, they would still get 3 atx even without a melee weapon. 3 whimpy, not doing any damage or AP, Str4 atx.
But even a cheap power weapon instantly makes those 3 atx give a bit more kick.
And since you pay the same cost as a Vet with only 2 atx, it is 50% more efficient

I give my Sgt SB/Axe or SB/Hammer in every unit.

-

One of the big traps you need to avoid when playing DW is mixing too much stuff in one unit. Your proposed units feel a bit like that to me. In general I find it a bad idea to mix shooting weapons, so you don't want one guy with a Stalker bolter while everyone else has Storm bolters, and you don't really get that much use out of 1 combi-weapon, for example, while everyone else has Storm bolters. Storm bolters outperform every other type of basic weapon you can get, so I'd always go for that on your Veterans. The only exception might be for a heavy weapon squad where some Stalker bolters might allow you to site at longer range and still contribute. I normally don't bother with bikes in regular Veteran squads either. I find being able to Fall Back and shoot thanks to the VV is usually sufficient to allow my units to back off and destroy whoever charged them previously.

For characters a Watch Master is pretty much an auto-include and I often find myself taking a jump pack Captain with wither TH and Storm bolter or TH/SS. He can then drop in next to your other teleporting squads without costing CP and support their firepower while the Watch Master deploys from the start to give your firebase a solid start to the game, which I find is very important for DW. Your marines are still pretty fragile, even with SS or their extra range so having the Watch Master with his full re-rolls (and often the Tome of Ectoclades for more versatility) can help you dish out a lot of damage early, before you start losing your precious marines.

Agree. Watch Master is a must have. He gives you full support for your back line. I still have not a Smash Captain but it should be your second option. Now I am using a Terminator Watch Captain with SB with the Relic ammunition and SS or Relic Blade and he Deep Strikes with my Veteran units.

Also Agree with Slipspace about mixing too much the Veteran units. It also makes your play a lot slower. And between SB or the Stalker, costing the same, there is no doubt, SB for sure.

First of all, I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to walk me through this whole thing. Back when I bought these models, a single HQ and two troop selections made up a Combined Arms Detachment. There were no Command Points or Strategems. People weren't trying to set up their armies to get as many CP as possible while still maxing their army's models and abilities. Also, since Artemis came with Death Masque, I'm pretty sure he was A LOT cheaper on eBay at the time than to buy a Watch Master.

Keeping all that in mind, I have very close to if not enough either actual Deathwatch models or Space Marines and Deathwatch Upgrade Sprues to handle making the actual troops.

Weapons become the problem. While I still haven't glued the arms on the vast majority of the models I have, most of the weapons were chosen for 7th not for 8th. This is back when all Terminators needed to be equipped with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers, or they weren't even worth putting on the table. And, the best Deathwatch Veteran weapons for the points (other than heavy weapons and Sgt. weapons) were Deathwatch Shotguns.

At this time, I really don't have the money needed to go mining through eBay and Bits websites to try to get the extra Storm Bolters, Storm Shields, and Terminator Power Mauls needed to make up an optimal army. I still have all my old sprues where bits weren't completely cut off as well as two bits boxes. But, even after going through all of that, Space Marine Storm Bolters are not in large quantity. And, I don't think I found a single Terminator Power Maul.

Over time, I may be able to build up a better army (including more storm shields and more storm bolters). Right now, though, my roster is going to look a bit different than what is recommended.

ALL THAT SAID, I would greatly appreciate some Suggestions and Constructive criticism on what I do have available and what I can put together and put on the table. Would you all be willing to do that for me? I'll be happy to put the list up on the army list forum or in this thread or both depending on where you all would like to see it.



tl;dr - I am planning a DW army based off models bought for 7th edition. The weapons I have to choose from aren't the most optimum for the army, and that money needs to be spent in other places rather than hunting for bits. I would like to still post the list and get constructive criticism and suggestions on what weapons I have, though.

Thanks in advance!

SG

You could try dudespam Deathwatch. Just tons of bolter/bolt rifle guys. Toss a Missile in every squad. If you have em 3-6 shooty Dreads. Basic Terminators aren't horrible you would just rather save the points on the Fist as they are for dropping into central cover and shooting their Storm Bolters.

I don't really know what to tell you. . . that 7th edition loadout is just about the worst possible loadout you could have in 8th. Shotguns are butt now. I'm glad I magnetized my vets, as tedious as it was, since I figure Deathwatch is an army that will have to be adaptable through editions.

You could do what I did and buy some shapeways stormbolters and shields from popgoesthemonkey:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/RGZQB5QWZ/10x-xenos-hunters-blitzpistol-5-left-5-right?optionId=65564464

If you can't upgrade anything I think the best solution would be to try to arrange your weapon loadouts to optimise each squad's role. If you have a bunch of shotguns, try to put them in the same unit and don't mix them in with Stalkers, for example. If your Terminators don't have ranged weapons they're probably better off in their own unit rather than mixed in with the Veterans where they would just be a very expensive meat shield.

Quasistellar wrote:
I don't really know what to tell you. . . that 7th edition loadout is just about the worst possible loadout you could have in 8th. Shotguns are butt now. I'm glad I magnetized my vets, as tedious as it was, since I figure Deathwatch is an army that will have to be adaptable through editions.

You could do what I did and buy some shapeways stormbolters and shields from popgoesthemonkey:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/RGZQB5QWZ/10x-xenos-hunters-blitzpistol-5-left-5-right?optionId=65564464

Shotguns will have merit again if they're bumped down to 1-2 points. At 3 points they're just plain silly.

Quasistellar wrote:
I don't really know what to tell you. . . that 7th edition loadout is just about the worst possible loadout you could have in 8th. Shotguns are butt now. I'm glad I magnetized my vets, as tedious as it was, since I figure Deathwatch is an army that will have to be adaptable through editions.

You could do what I did and buy some shapeways stormbolters and shields from popgoesthemonkey:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/RGZQB5QWZ/10x-xenos-hunters-blitzpistol-5-left-5-right?optionId=65564464

you get five right handed and five left handed storm bolters, but aren’t all Storm Shields left handed?

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I don't really know what to tell you. . . that 7th edition loadout is just about the worst possible loadout you could have in 8th. Shotguns are butt now. I'm glad I magnetized my vets, as tedious as it was, since I figure Deathwatch is an army that will have to be adaptable through editions.

You could do what I did and buy some shapeways stormbolters and shields from popgoesthemonkey:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/RGZQB5QWZ/10x-xenos-hunters-blitzpistol-5-left-5-right?optionId=65564464

you get five right handed and five left handed storm bolters, but aren’t all Storm Shields left handed?

SG

Your other major source (the Vanguard Veteran kit) yes, but the Deathwatch Veteran kit has one right-handed and one left-handed.

Sternguard come with two of them as well. I have a ton just sitting in a box right now.

Whenever I get around to making my Deathwatch (fifth army in line behind my Crimson Fists, Graia Ad Mech, Blood Angels, and Drukhari), I hope there is a better option than just ALL STORM BOLTERS.

So, I just played my DW army against a Chaos list this weekend, and my list got beated just because of the sheer number of units facing me, and Chaos SM being the paper to my rock.

Here are my observations about pure DW lists:

1. You need a LOT of micromanagement skills. Literally every model in your army can or might have it's very own shooting/fighting rolls, because there are so many different weapon options plus split targeting rules. Expect to spend a lot of time rolling and declaring different things.

2. They have a lot of tricks in the bag, and I spent a lot of time hitting my head after a turn because I forgot 2 or 3 of the 5 different tricks I had that would have had a massive impact, because I was hyper focused on other things. It helps to build check lists.

3. They put out a TON of damage. A Squad of vets along can wipe out another squad of like size, in a single phase, without shenanigans. The Frag cannon alone can delete a 10 man squad of cultists. If you go pure HTHs with your vanguards, you can delete vehicles with shocking rapidity.

4. You have almost no room for error, because each model is valuable and you don't have a lot of points to waste.

5. The Meta surrounding all SS/SBs is fun, but will result in a lot of easy saves. I went Stalker pattern bolters and chain swords, and did ok. Your guys will get charged, give them a melee weapon.

6. Don't waste time with the CorvusSuckstar. It is only good as a transport, and then it's a flying rhino that never makes it's points back.

7. Their Psychic game is kinda trash, with the exception of Might of Heroes. So you get one super powered squad, and then a crappy HQ for the rest of the turn.

 ServiceGames wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I don't really know what to tell you. . . that 7th edition loadout is just about the worst possible loadout you could have in 8th. Shotguns are butt now. I'm glad I magnetized my vets, as tedious as it was, since I figure Deathwatch is an army that will have to be adaptable through editions.

You could do what I did and buy some shapeways stormbolters and shields from popgoesthemonkey:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/RGZQB5QWZ/10x-xenos-hunters-blitzpistol-5-left-5-right?optionId=65564464

you get five right handed and five left handed storm bolters, but aren’t all Storm Shields left handed?

SG

Plus, remember that you don't really NEED to have every veteran use a storm shield. Having about 3 or 4 storm shields is probably "enough" for anything but actual tournaments.

If you check Popgoesthemonkey, you'll also find that they have all kinds of left and right-handed shields if you do want to go full 10x storm bolter 10x storm shield loadout.

Personally, I am using GKs and AoS Liberators as my DW. The GKs all have wrist mounted SBs and the Liberators have awesome looking shields that aren't necessarily right or left handed. Model-wise, these 2 kit really complement each other for building StormVets.

While I also agree not all Vets should have shields, I think at least all non-Sgt/Black Shield/Frag cannon Vet should have shields.
I personally to a minimum of 2 shields per 3 models in the unit. So a 5-man unit would get 3 shields minimum. A 9 man unit gets at least 6.

I also think VVs should get SSs too. While you shouldn't be taking wounds on them first, if you already lost all your Storm Vets in the units, why do you still need the VVs anyway? Might as well start using the VV as a meatshield if you've already lost most/all of the unit's shooting models, especially since a VV with SS/Pistol are cheaper than StormVet.

-

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
1. You need a LOT of micromanagement skills. Literally every model in your army can or might have it's very own shooting/fighting rolls, because there are so many different weapon options plus split targeting rules. Expect to spend a lot of time rolling and declaring different things.

You are free to mix weapons extensively, but in practice I find most units will have one or two weapon pools (either just bolters, or bolters/plasma in Primaris units or bolters/fragcannons in normal units). The micromanagement comes more from the fact that they're best played with many small units than anything else.

4. You have almost no room for error, because each model is valuable and you don't have a lot of points to waste.

Extending off this: I usually field standard Veterans in Razorbacks and Primaris teams in the Teleportarium to try and ensure I get all my infantry's shooting off before any of them get killed (my initial on-table deployment is usually ~5 T7 vehicles). Doing this I find most games are won or lost on turn 2 when I come out of turtle mode and start firing; if enough damage comes out on that first turn where everything drops I'm okay, if I pick targets poorly and/or whiff the rest of the game is an uphill slog.

5. The Meta surrounding all SS/SBs is fun, but will result in a lot of easy saves. I went Stalker pattern bolters and chain swords, and did ok. Your guys will get charged, give them a melee weapon.

I tend to mix SB/chainsword and SB/SS in squads; the storm bolters offer a massive amount of shooting, two or three storm shields to a squad can let you tank a moderate amount of good-AP fire (at 2pts/pop that storm shield only has to block one or two lascannon hits to make a big difference), and the chainswords give you the flexibility to run in and whack things that you didn't quite kill shooting them. Three S4/AP-/D1 attacks per model isn't something to rely on as a primary strategy but as a follow-up into damaged units it's a valuable tool.

6. Don't waste time with the CorvusSuckstar. It is only good as a transport, and then it's a flying rhino that never makes it's points back.

I really want to like the Corvus, but I have to concur here; it never seems to do enough for me. For the cost Razorbacks do most of the jobs the Corvus does better, and anything the Corvus does that Razorbacks don't you have Reivers and the Teleportarium for.

7. Their Psychic game is kinda trash, with the exception of Might of Heroes. So you get one super powered squad, and then a crappy HQ for the rest of the turn.

Concur. My usual HQ picks are one Watch-Master and one barebones Captain (sometimes with the Shield Eternal), if you find yourself in urgent need of psychic defense Greyfax is 85pts, comes with two denies at +1 to deny at all ranges, can ride in your transports, and has much more entertaining (if situational) shenanigans to pull.

Are you really paying 1cp and a detachment slot {when that matters) for Greyfax?

You can pay zero cp and throw him in a patrol det of GK, but then you are paying for GK strike squads, which are la crap,

Addendum on Blackstar:

If you opponent allows it (See: most obliging opponent ever) The Corvus does allow you to do turn 1 shenanigans with a squad of vets, a Watch Captain, and a Beacon Angelis another squad into your enemies backfield, or objectives. This is mostly unblockable, and currently labeled BROKEN AS HELL.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Are you really paying 1cp and a detachment slot {when that matters) for Greyfax?

If I'm playing a pure Deathwatch army it's usually one Battalion so the detachment slot doesn't matter much, and if I really need psychic defense I'm happier to pay 1CP for two denies than needing to buy a Librarian.