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 Sim-Life wrote:

Grey40k wrote:

 Argive wrote:
considering our fictional kid would drop £32.50 on 5 banshees while the hormogaunt kid would get around 18 hormogaunts for the same price tag....

Of course that balance matters, that is one of the basic premises of most games.

Saying that balance doesn't matter because people who just play for fun have fun anyway is a clumsy attempt to sweep aside an important concern.

Would kids have less fun if the game were to be better balanced? Nope!

Would the game be better for everyone, or at least not worse, if the rules were better balanced? Yep!

So why isn't it balanced? Because GW tampers with rules for business purposes. This game has been going strong for more than two decades and balance is no better than when I played; even after dumbing down / simplifying lots of mechanics.

Is it that hard not to get a faction going up to 65% win rate and utterly crushing some of the factions (75% win rates)? At the very least this points to insufficient testing.

GW might be good at creating fluff and getting the sculpts to be played across the world, but they certainly aren't good at keeping functioning rules for it. IMHO rules ought to be taken out from the business equation; if GW is unable to do that, ETC or ITC or whatever player run organization needs to step up.

In the meantime, every time they post a misleading infomercial in their so-called Warhammer community site I hope the real community posts something like this. That'll teach them!


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 Sim-Life wrote:

 Argive wrote:
considering our fictional kid would drop £32.50 on 5 banshees while the hormogaunt kid would get around 18 hormogaunts for the same price tag....

The price of banshees isn't really the discussion because you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks its acceptable.

Edit: I also like that now our fictional, tournament going, meta chasing 10 year old has his own income?

So selling bad units to kids is OK because they don't know any better? It is hard to see this as a justification.

Next we should be telling them to just bang them against each other instead of using GW rules because that might be more balanced.

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone on this board has ever met or even been a child.

It has been a while since I was a child lol.. Not sure about you.
But I do remember my expensive metal hive tyrant dying to the seer council every game, and loosing against my friends eldar every time we played. And that's why we stopped playing...

I certainly didn't know why and as a kid yes, you want cool models and dont really think mathhammer. You just want your units to fight and do stuff right ? But if you loose the fight every time... whats the point?

Hence I think this is a bit of an issue. And you can bet your behind the shirts at GW stores will be force sellling these to kids and their parents...

Grey40k wrote:

Dai wrote:

Of course. I suppose I am reacting to the over-reactions like "snake oil salesman" etc. It's just capitalism,

They overhype a notoriously bad unit, this is just a dishonest way to advertise.

I have no idea how true or not what they say is within the context of all the "metas" and what have you but by all means call them out when necessary.

Exactly what is going on.

On the other hand constant complaining and excessive language will lead to a "cried wolf" situation.

Since you haven't checked whether it is in a good state (rules wise) or not, how can you say it is excessive?

Or possibly put people off getting into the game at all which I am sure most of us don't really want.

People who start playing should be aware of how GW conducts business. If being exposed leads to people being put off it is their own fault. Maybe next time they'll think twice before pulling on of these tricks.

The only thing keeping companies "honest" are discerning consumers and, for the most clearly predatory cases, legislation.

Before I hear anything along the likes of "it is just a game". It might be a game, but the money spent in it is very real.

Finally, from an old player coming back:

How the heck can be that site called "warhammer community"? It is one long bad infomercial and it doesn't have a single place that I could see where one could leave any feedback. Had there been comments accepted on the post, it would have been rightfully shredded.

I don't disagree with you, I've just become a bit jaded with the whole everything is either "garbage or OP" thing. Not aimed at the OP as they seem a good poster.

Grey40k wrote:In the meantime, every time they post a misleading infomercial in their so-called Warhammer community site I hope the real community posts something like this. That'll teach them!

Implying that the "real" community can only hold these beliefs?

Quit with the talk of "real" community - that's a completely subjective belief. If you like 40k or interact with it in any way, you're part of the community.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:In the meantime, every time they post a misleading infomercial in their so-called Warhammer community site I hope the real community posts something like this. That'll teach them!

Implying that the "real" community can only hold these beliefs?

Quit with the talk of "real" community - that's a completely subjective belief. If you like 40k or interact with it in any way, you're part of the community.

Read my post! I meant the real community, not that website called "Warhammer Community" where there isn't any way to interact with the players.

So, key concept here "interact". Not much of that going on on Warhammer community grounds, that I can see.

Grey40k wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:In the meantime, every time they post a misleading infomercial in their so-called Warhammer community site I hope the real community posts something like this. That'll teach them!

Implying that the "real" community can only hold these beliefs?

Quit with the talk of "real" community - that's a completely subjective belief. If you like 40k or interact with it in any way, you're part of the community.

Read my post! I meant the real community, not that website called "Warhammer Community" where there isn't any way to interact with the players.

So, key concept here "interact". Not much of that going on on Warhammer community grounds, that I can see.

His point is what is the real community? The narritive players? The meta chasers? The newbies? The under-12s?The WAAC players? The CAAC players? All of these people will have different opinions on how to play the game.

And given it's dakka it's far more likely to be negative regardless.

Grey40k wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:In the meantime, every time they post a misleading infomercial in their so-called Warhammer community site I hope the real community posts something like this. That'll teach them!

Implying that the "real" community can only hold these beliefs?

Quit with the talk of "real" community - that's a completely subjective belief. If you like 40k or interact with it in any way, you're part of the community.

Read my post! I meant the real community, not that website called "Warhammer Community" where there isn't any way to interact with the players.

So, key concept here "interact". Not much of that going on on Warhammer community grounds, that I can see.

Yes, I read it. Define "real" community - as far as I'm concerned, calling WarCom not a "real"community is putting up arbitrary limitations.

And besides, I feel that WarCom interacts fine, IMO.

I'm Canadian, so the presale hasn't gone up yet and I don't know the price CAD.

I've always liked Banshees, Incubi and Jain Zar. I didn't like Drazhar until this sculpt. That's as far as model aesthetics go.

Rules wise, I do think both Incubi and Banshees have a place; both units have better rules now than they did before PA. I don't have a force for the Banshees to fit into yet, but I've got a fledgling DE army for the Incubi. I'm playing them campaign style and growing the army organically, so the mercenary aspect of Incubi is perfect for a campaign, because they will act as allies for a force that doesn't have the reputation to attract specialist units.

As for high prices, that's always been an issue for GW, and I do see it as a legitimate complaint. Business/ capitalism is weird to me; I always feel like the loss in sales volume eats away at any advantage the company gets by raising prices. I bought somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1.5k worth of GW last year, But I probably would have spent more if was getting slightly more for each dollar- there are a lot of things I wanted to buy but didn't due to cost.

As to the Community, I also agree that it could be more engaging. I check it pretty much every day, but on most days, I don't find anything that scratches the itch. I come here, or go to B&C.

I think there were a few comments early in the thread about getting better in a re-release for 9th. I've said before, and often, that while I don't dismiss the possibility of 9th, I really don't think it's coming any time soon, if ever. I really like the PA method of every single faction gets something new every year.I also like the fact that NEW things are being created.

And I think all of that goes away if there's a 9th.

Finally, I suppose my biggest fear is that a boycott of these models makes GW think that Aspects aren't worth resculpting. I think that's the reason I try to defend, redirect when I see a lot of negative talk.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Grey40k wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:In the meantime, every time they post a misleading infomercial in their so-called Warhammer community site I hope the real community posts something like this. That'll teach them!

Implying that the "real" community can only hold these beliefs?

Quit with the talk of "real" community - that's a completely subjective belief. If you like 40k or interact with it in any way, you're part of the community.

Read my post! I meant the real community, not that website called "Warhammer Community" where there isn't any way to interact with the players.

So, key concept here "interact". Not much of that going on on Warhammer community grounds, that I can see.

His point is what is the real community? The narritive players? The meta chasers? The newbies? The under-12s?The WAAC players? The CAAC players? All of these people will have different opinions on how to play the game.

Exactly. Implying there's one big "real" community is like calling people out as "fake fans", a form of gatekeeping I despise.

40k is divided into so many communities it's no use trying to imply that there's a "real" one out there.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:In the meantime, every time they post a misleading infomercial in their so-called Warhammer community site I hope the real community posts something like this. That'll teach them!

Implying that the "real" community can only hold these beliefs?

Quit with the talk of "real" community - that's a completely subjective belief. If you like 40k or interact with it in any way, you're part of the community.

Read my post! I meant the real community, not that website called "Warhammer Community" where there isn't any way to interact with the players.

So, key concept here "interact". Not much of that going on on Warhammer community grounds, that I can see.

Yes, I read it. Define "real" community - as far as I'm concerned, calling WarCom not a "real"community is putting up arbitrary limitations.

And besides, I feel that WarCom interacts fine, IMO.

How the heck does "WarCom" interact with the community? We can't really post in there anything. Anything that is not writen by an employee has been 100% handpicked by GW employees.

What am I missing? Honestly, I am puzzled.


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PenitentJake wrote:


Finally, I suppose my biggest fear is that a boycott of these models makes GW think that Aspects aren't worth resculpting. I think that's the reason I try to defend, redirect when I see a lot of negative talk.

There is money to be made, no need for us to be quiet when they do things wrong. At least in tournaments, eldars are still among the biggest factions.

Grey40k wrote:
How the heck does "WarCom" interact with the community? We can't really post in there anything. Anything that is not writen by an employee has been 100% handpicked by GW employees.

What am I missing? Honestly, I am puzzled.

You can comment on their Facebook, instagram, and Twitter posts, no?

The WarCom website is creating things for the community, and the community can interact via social media channels.

TLDR "we took away your mask wings/bike Autarch so why not buy these instead (or look in the Dark Kin book they still have one cos reasons)"

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:
How the heck does "WarCom" interact with the community? We can't really post in there anything. Anything that is not writen by an employee has been 100% handpicked by GW employees.

What am I missing? Honestly, I am puzzled.

You can comment on their Facebook, instagram, and Twitter posts, no?

The WarCom website is creating things for the community, and the community can interact via social media channels.

I we have a completely different idea of what interacting with the community means, or what a "community" portal ought to look like.

I do not see the Warhammer Community website as any sort of community hub since no player can actually leave a comment there in any form.

That said, probably no point arguing with you over it since both our positions are clear.

PenitentJake wrote:
I'm Canadian, so the presale hasn't gone up yet and I don't know the price CAD.

I've always liked Banshees, Incubi and Jain Zar. I didn't like Drazhar until this sculpt. That's as far as model aesthetics go.

Rules wise, I do think both Incubi and Banshees have a place; both units have better rules now than they did before PA. I don't have a force for the Banshees to fit into yet, but I've got a fledgling DE army for the Incubi. I'm playing them campaign style and growing the army organically, so the mercenary aspect of Incubi is perfect for a campaign, because they will act as allies for a force that doesn't have the reputation to attract specialist units.

As for high prices, that's always been an issue for GW, and I do see it as a legitimate complaint. Business/ capitalism is weird to me; I always feel like the loss in sales volume eats away at any advantage the company gets by raising prices. I bought somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1.5k worth of GW last year, But I probably would have spent more if was getting slightly more for each dollar- there are a lot of things I wanted to buy but didn't due to cost.

As to the Community, I also agree that it could be more engaging. I check it pretty much every day, but on most days, I don't find anything that scratches the itch. I come here, or go to B&C.

I think there were a few comments early in the thread about getting better in a re-release for 9th. I've said before, and often, that while I don't dismiss the possibility of 9th, I really don't think it's coming any time soon, if ever. I really like the PA method of every single faction gets something new every year.I also like the fact that NEW things are being created.

And I think all of that goes away if there's a 9th.

Finally, I suppose my biggest fear is that a boycott of these models makes GW think that Aspects aren't worth resculpting. I think that's the reason I try to defend, redirect when I see a lot of negative talk.

don't boycott the models, boycott the rules.

How exactly do you do that?

 Sim-Life wrote:
...I'm beginning to wonder if anyone on this board has ever met or even been a child.

My experience of playing 40k at 12 mostly consisted of a friend getting mad at me about how unbeatably strong Mechdar were (mid 4e) and eventually ragequitting the game.


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pm713 wrote:
How exactly do you do that?

Write your own. There are a lot of hurdles to making 40k better that are just built into the basic core rules, but there are really simple patches (one-Battalion-only, Highlander, stratagem banlists, the 25% rule, hit-mod caps...) that can improve casual play.

Grey40k wrote:That said, probably no point arguing with you over it since both our positions are clear.

Perhaps, but I can certainly highlight about your idea of a "real" community, and how that kind of rhetoric leads to gatekeeping.

Regardless if WarCom is a community or not, "real community" is a pretty loaded term.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
...I'm beginning to wonder if anyone on this board has ever met or even been a child.

My experience of playing 40k at 12 mostly consisted of a friend getting mad at me about how unbeatably strong Mechdar were (mid 4e) and eventually ragequitting the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
How exactly do you do that?

Write your own. There are a lot of hurdles to making 40k better that are just built into the basic core rules, but there are really simple patches (one-Battalion-only, Highlander, stratagem banlists, the 25% rule, hit-mod caps...) that can improve casual play.

No I mean how do you boycott rules in a way that's obviously distinct to GW than boycotting a model. If I refuse to buy a model because it has bad rules that's indistinguishable from me not buying a model because it's overpriced or ugly.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You can comment on their Facebook, instagram, and Twitter posts, no?

The WarCom website is creating things for the community, and the community can interact via social media channels.

yeah and they delete or ignore those posts, while other people are making fun of your army choice.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:That said, probably no point arguing with you over it since both our positions are clear.

Perhaps, but I can certainly highlight about your idea of a "real" community, and how that kind of rhetoric leads to gatekeeping.

Regardless if WarCom is a community or not, "real community" is a pretty loaded term.

well size makes stuff real. Football is a real sport, curling is not. Now localy there maybe fluctuation, but stuff like rule of 3, match played points is a thing people play and build their armies with those rules in ming. In my country, ITC is not a thing, in US it is a thing. On the other hand something like open or narrative, as a real way to play, makes as much sense as someone claiming fire isn't hot.

Isn't curling in the Olympics? That feels pretty real to me.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You can comment on their Facebook, instagram, and Twitter posts, no?

The WarCom website is creating things for the community, and the community can interact via social media channels.

yeah and they delete or ignore those posts, while other people are making fun of your army choice.

The mods here delete posts. And they have no obligation to respond to everything. They've made it clear that they are happy to take criticism and suggestions via their email site, and often do make that aware in comment threads.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:That said, probably no point arguing with you over it since both our positions are clear.

Perhaps, but I can certainly highlight about your idea of a "real" community, and how that kind of rhetoric leads to gatekeeping.

Regardless if WarCom is a community or not, "real community" is a pretty loaded term.

well size makes stuff real.

Not really, at least, not in any of the examples you give.

Football is a real sport, curling is not.

Curling is a real sport.
Just goes to show your argument's flaws, eh?

Now localy there maybe fluctuation, but stuff like rule of 3, match played points is a thing people play and build their armies with those rules in ming. In my country, ITC is not a thing, in US it is a thing.

Unofficial or not, ITC is real, and a valid way to play 40k, just like any other.

On the other hand something like open or narrative, as a real way to play, makes as much sense as someone claiming fire isn't hot.

Absolutely untrue, and a backhanded insult to anyone who plays those methods.

Putting up arbitrary boundaries and gatekeeping phrases like "this isn't the *real* way to play" or "my group is the REAL community" is dismissive in the extreme of other groups, and only serves to foster animosity and hostility. Regardless of how you play, that is valid, and you are part of the community. Play Matched with the latest FAQs and Errata with competitive play and aiming to win? That's fine. Play Open with the datasheets from the boxes that you've just bought, with Power Level, aiming to enjoy yourself and just roll dice on a kitchen table? That's fine. They're both real, and both valid members of the Warhammer Community.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't curling in the Olympics? That feels pretty real to me.

Clearly, if it's not a sport according to Karol, it's not "real" sport anywhere.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You can comment on their Facebook, instagram, and Twitter posts, no?

The WarCom website is creating things for the community, and the community can interact via social media channels.

yeah and they delete or ignore those posts, while other people are making fun of your army choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey40k wrote:That said, probably no point arguing with you over it since both our positions are clear.

Perhaps, but I can certainly highlight about your idea of a "real" community, and how that kind of rhetoric leads to gatekeeping.

Regardless if WarCom is a community or not, "real community" is a pretty loaded term.

well size makes stuff real. Football is a real sport, curling is not. Now localy there maybe fluctuation, but stuff like rule of 3, match played points is a thing people play and build their armies with those rules in ming. In my country, ITC is not a thing, in US it is a thing. On the other hand something like open or narrative, as a real way to play, makes as much sense as someone claiming fire isn't hot.

What a world it would be if any group of people could invalidate another because they said so.

That is more or less how companies, countries, religions and any big group work. Try walking around mediolan in a Latzio shirt, claiming AC Milan is not the one and only.

Of course every group wants to dominate every other group, and wants to see things done their way. That is why we get wars on a state and neighbour families scale, and everything in between.

No it isn't, that's how thugs work. Even on this forum there are others from Poland who manage to play narrative stuff quite fine (nou springs to mind), despite your local meta being composed of shadier folks.

Karol wrote:
That is more or less how companies, countries, religions and any big group work. Try walking around mediolan in a Latzio shirt, claiming AC Milan is not the one and only.

Of course every group wants to dominate every other group, and wants to see things done their way. That is why we get wars on a state and neighbour families scale, and everything in between.

Saying that someone playing Narrative isn't part of the "Real" 40k community isn't excusable, nor is it anywhere near on the socio-political scale as gang warfare, civil war, or international conflict.

If you play or enjoy 40k in any capacity, you are part of the community, simple as.
You wouldn't suggest that someone wasn't a football fan because they supported a different team, would you?

BrianDavion wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Yeah. Bait and swiich or plain bait ... which form of marketing do you orefer

unless bait and switch means something very very differantly in Netherlands from what it means in the rest of the world this isn't bait and switch.

Well sure. Means that you sell x as y, then change x to z.
After the commitment to the transaction.
So in slow motion, banshees went from awesome to eek. No.
Unless you like that. Then it is just bait for sucker fish...


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 Nevelon wrote:
Banshees are not without a few high points.

They are stupidly fast. 8” move, Advance (can guarantee 6” with strat), +3” on the charge, and the charge roll (~7”) means you are looking at covering about two feet of table to charge.

They ignore overwatch. This, combined with their speed, means they can be where they need and engage someone in CC. Now locking units up in combat isn’t what it it used to be, but not everyone can fall back and shoot with impunity. They can also be the first ones in to cover more vulnerable units that don’t feel like eating a face full of flamers (or worse)

They are not the walking blender murder machines they are made out to be. They are a big ol' monkey wrench that can be tossed at the foe to disrupt things.

Worth the points for that? Maybe not.
Worth the money? Well, they do look pretty...

They are cc fodder. Def not what they are made out to be. No wonder elders are dying out... they waste all their women on killing grots.

Canadian price and preorder up now- $65 CAD per box of 5. That's in the neighbourhood of quite a few of the 5 model terminator squads- some of those costing as much as $80 CAD.

Still overpriced, but there are other precedents for it.

Ten Primaris in a box for just $5.00 more does sting a bit, though I think both of these kits are better models aesthetically.

Thinking about a battalion with the Children of Khaine CW trait- Asurmen and Jain Zar for HQ, 3x5 dire avengers for troops and 3x5 Banshees. Probably max out exarchs, but not sure about the second CW trait and Specific Exarch powers.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

ccs wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I'm just going to vent a bit here because I read this and quite frankly I wish they didn't bother trying to write this shpiel as its just insulting to anyone who understands how to play 40k and understands the current rules and meta...

Have you considered that "anyone who understands how to play 40k and understands the current rules and meta..." ... isn't the target audience this was written for?

I would suggest that an understanding of the current meta isn't even required.

It's a shill article for new players because they've likely seen the backlash of expecting people to pay the same price for 5 Banshees that people pay for 10 Primaris Marines and are trying to counter.

It's very obvious and reeks of greed.

I could of written their article in a few sentences;
Banshees can act as a T1 roadblock unit if you invest a few psychic powers into them. They will kill nothing/little but keeping the opponent in their deployment zone is oftentimes worth it. If you go second they are an easy kill, keep them out of LOS or expect them to die.

Ok genius, now go write an article that SELLS me (pretend I'm a new player) a unit of Banshees.
You've got exactly the same word-count GW used in their article, you're not allowed to say anything untrue about them, and you cannot focus on whatever their negatives are.

I'll give this a go. I'm not sure I can match the word count of GW, however;

We have these NEW Banshee sculpts and THEY'RE NOT FAILCA- FINECAST I mean!! Woohoo! Take your sexy Femdar fantasies to the NEXT LEVEL and get these bad bo- girls before all those other sneaky knife ears steal them to make conversions of units they can't play!! Awww Yeaaaaa Banshees, awesome and very cost effective models*.



*May not be cost effective models.

E - how did I do?

I hope you're better at your real job.....

Karol wrote:
That is more or less how companies, countries, religions and any big group work. Try walking around mediolan in a Latzio shirt, claiming AC Milan is not the one and only.

Of course every group wants to dominate every other group, and wants to see things done their way. That is why we get wars on a state and neighbour families scale, and everything in between.

Can you stop with this might is right nonsense every other post. You are incorrect and humanity would be in a sorry state indeed if you were correct. This is a wargaming forum and people do not want to be debunking this toxic nonsense constantly.

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
That is more or less how companies, countries, religions and any big group work. Try walking around mediolan in a Latzio shirt, claiming AC Milan is not the one and only.

Of course every group wants to dominate every other group, and wants to see things done their way. That is why we get wars on a state and neighbour families scale, and everything in between.

Can you stop with this might is right nonsense every other post. You are incorrect and humanity would be in a sorry state indeed if you were correct. This is a wargaming forum and people do not want to be debunking this toxic nonsense constantly.

Eh, Karol is wrong about a lot of stuff - but he's pretty spot on with this.