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pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
I've heard this circular logic before. People say Marines don't get disproportionate attention/releases because each subfaction is a separate army, which is only the case because Marines alone have so much attention and investment put into them that their different color schemes all get their own books and army lists.

In other words: 'Marines aren't disproportionately favored, they just constitute half the armies in the game and so deserve more releases'. It's begging the question.

I'm curious by what you mean by subfaction. Do you mean things like Space Wolves and the Angels? Or do you mean the multiple supplements they get when other factions have nothing like that?

Space Marines are a subfaction of the Imperium

Chapters are a Sub-sub faction - equivalent to a Craftworld or Kabel, Cult or Coven.

Space Marines are not a subfaction of anything. Just look at the website, they have their own section for some reason...

Keywords from my White Scars Supplement is: Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - White Scars

That's nice. Space Marines are still quite blatantly not a SUB faction. That holds as much weight as saying Tyranids are part of the same army as Dark Eldar.

Dark Eldar are a Eldar Sub faction.
Tyranids are an actual Faction like Orks or Tau.

but agreed Marine Chapters are marketed as an actual Faction.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, I don't think it's excessive when we're talking about five armies basically using the same pool of releases.

It's five armies getting far more attention than TWENTY TWO.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
I've heard this circular logic before. People say Marines don't get disproportionate attention/releases because each subfaction is a separate army, which is only the case because Marines alone have so much attention and investment put into them that their different color schemes all get their own books and army lists.

In other words: 'Marines aren't disproportionately favored, they just constitute half the armies in the game and so deserve more releases'. It's begging the question.

It's only "circular logic" if you're ignoring the key part:
This stuff is available to multiple ranges.
If it were just Codex Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc that were seeing that many releases?
I'd be 100% there with your argument.

But it's Codex, DA, BA, DW, and SW who got to use a large chunk of if not all of these releases at the times they came out. That's 5 armies sharing the same release pool.

Those five ranges are all subfactions of the same faction. They're all flavors of Space Marine. That they are each given the same importance as actual distinct factions is exactly the point.

If GW suddenly had an obsession with Eldar, released separate codices for Alaitoc, Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann, Ulthwe, and Iyanden, and then allocated 80+% of new releases to Eldar, I doubt you'd be arguing that there's no Eldar favoritism because it's just 5 armies sharing the same release pool. Pay no attention to the fact that these 5 subfactions-turned-full-factions are now getting more releases than the other 20-odd factions combined.

You're using the results of Marine favoritism to argue that there is no Marine favoritism. That's why it's begging the question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Dark Eldar are a Eldar Sub faction.
Tyranids are an actual Faction like Orks or Tau.

but agreed Marine Chapters are marketed as an actual Faction.

Dark Eldar, Craftworlds, and Harlequins are all top-level factions, not subfactions. They belong to an Eldar super-faction, just as all the Imperial factions belong to the Imperium super-faction. Subfactions are the individual, named craftworlds/kabals/chapters/regiments/etc.

Imperium <-> Eldar
Space Marines <-> Drukhari
Imperial Fists <-> Prophets of Flesh

 Mr Morden wrote:


Dark Eldar are a Eldar Sub faction .

To be clear, Asuryani and Drukhari are Aeldari factions, in the same way that Astra Militarum and AdMech are Imperium factions.

 harlokin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Dark Eldar are a Eldar Sub faction .

To be clear, Asuryani and Drukhari are Aeldari factions, in the same way that Astra Militarum and AdMech are Imperium factions.

Well if you are saying the Imperium is a super faction.....yeah.

spell check does not work on my browser so went for the easier option.

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys.

Since im new to warhammer 40k tabletop (started 2 months ago) i havent witnessed an edition change before.

I was wondering, how long is the wait generally, from the edition is officially out, till new codexes for Xenos start coming out? And after that, how many models does each Xenos race usually get in each edition?

For instance, i play orks and i have no idea which units were added in 8th. So im just trying to piece together all the new information, which so far, i believe most can agree on the fact that Orks have been monumentally shat on in this edition so far (and yes i know its quite a statement and things can change, but SO FAR it doesnt look good). At least if you run mainly melee armies as a horde. including the lack of specialist detatchments which actually made the faction fun and interesting.

So how long would i have to wait to see some new changes to the orks and their codexes? and how long and how many models would i be able to expect to arrive to the 9th edition scene for the orks? I hope they add specialist detatchments to the core codex and make it a base thing.

Added for Orks in 8th were:
All the Buggies
Ghazskull


As for how long until Xenos comes out, well Necrons are coming out with Space Marines, so uh, 1st/2nd codex? Really, it's not predictable at all. It used to be like 2 months per codex [though back then a new codex also usually came with new models], and the only people guaranteed to see a codex in an edition were Space Marines, so like, yeah. Craftworld Eldar and Chaos Space Marines also see codecies most editions.

I can't tell you when Orks specifically will come out, because it's pretty random.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Dark Eldar are a Eldar Sub faction .

To be clear, Asuryani and Drukhari are Aeldari factions, in the same way that Astra Militarum and AdMech are Imperium factions.

Well if you are saying the Imperium is a super faction.....yeah.

spell check does not work on my browser so went for the easier option.

Not a prob. I was just clarifying (to anyone who might have been confused) that 'Dark Eldar' are not a 'Craftworld Eldar subfaction'.

Hey, look at that! In today's preview, it looks to me like either a new boys kit, or a new Nob kit is in the pipeline. ...hmm, maybe both?

Personally, I think we're seeing a wave of Lieutenant-equivalents.

Obviously marines have theirs, the Royal Warden seems to be a similar role in the necron force (especially so in the Indomitus novel), the Sisters' Palantine is obviously that.

So a Big Boss, Skitarii commander, Wych 'dracon,' and a Death Guard lieutenant.

Seems likely, especially since AdMech lost the Skitarii Alpha in the transition to 8th. I know a lot of players have been expecting/hoping for that to come back.

We didn't "lose" the Alpha. They're still there.

What we lost was the ability to field an HQ-less Detachment of pure Skitarii.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Just thinking about it depresses me. At this point I'd probably be grateful if I was sure that there was going to be another Drukhari codex, rather than lumping all the knife ears into 'Codex Spess Elfs'.

To be perfectly honest, I'd probably welcome the Eldar books being fully merged at this point.

At least with Farseers, Autarchs, Shadowseers and Troupe Masters, Dark Eldar would finally have some worthwhile HQ choices.

Sure.

We should probably just merge them with the Primaris Marines and Chaos at the same time right? Then Chaos Marines could take decent troops choices, and you could use Doom with Intercessors.
It'd be great.

As a chaos space marine player I welcome this idea. I’ve been toying with the idea of counts as loyalist marines my chaos boys so I can play them with some flavor and more importantly as a functioning army, but my defiler was the only thing holding me back. I was in love with the model and lore. Then I can have my bike lord not be legends, cost 20 points cheaper and have better rules I also get my hours heresy terminator armor as well. My tacs get mediocre rules that aren’t just loyalist rules except crappier. Please let me bypass the spike tax!

i have to say, when i made this topic i did not expect 3 pages of material

macluvin wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Just thinking about it depresses me. At this point I'd probably be grateful if I was sure that there was going to be another Drukhari codex, rather than lumping all the knife ears into 'Codex Spess Elfs'.

To be perfectly honest, I'd probably welcome the Eldar books being fully merged at this point.

At least with Farseers, Autarchs, Shadowseers and Troupe Masters, Dark Eldar would finally have some worthwhile HQ choices.

Sure.

We should probably just merge them with the Primaris Marines and Chaos at the same time right? Then Chaos Marines could take decent troops choices, and you could use Doom with Intercessors.
It'd be great.

As a chaos space marine player I welcome this idea. I’ve been toying with the idea of counts as loyalist marines my chaos boys so I can play them with some flavor and more importantly as a functioning army, but my defiler was the only thing holding me back. I was in love with the model and lore. Then I can have my bike lord not be legends, cost 20 points cheaper and have better rules I also get my hours heresy terminator armor as well. My tacs get mediocre rules that aren’t just loyalist rules except crappier. Please let me bypass the spike tax!

The defiler is the one CSM kit that I hope gets a redo al a the New Necron Monolith. I don't want to to change from what it is, just look better and fit with the modern standards.

pm713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, I don't think it's excessive when we're talking about five armies basically using the same pool of releases.

It's five armies getting far more attention than TWENTY TWO.

And its more or less proportional to their popularity and profit they bring in for GW. Makes perfect sense.

Beardedragon wrote:
i have to say, when i made this topic i did not expect 3 pages of material

Welcome to Dakka! This may well go to double digits, its hit on a fairly touchy subject - Xenos release patterns.

 Stux wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, I don't think it's excessive when we're talking about five armies basically using the same pool of releases.

It's five armies getting far more attention than TWENTY TWO.

And its more or less proportional to their popularity and profit they bring in for GW. Makes perfect sense.

Beardedragon wrote:
i have to say, when i made this topic i did not expect 3 pages of material

Welcome to Dakka! This may well go to double digits, its hit on a fairly touchy subject - Xenos release patterns.

Apparently so. And thank you lol.

I didnt even want to be snyde or make a scene, i just thought there was an actual release pattern. Like first few months after a new edition, Someone would get their codexes. then the next, then the next. And X amount of units would follow.

I thought there was a clear pattern in these things given how many editions its been since this show started, but i guess there arent. Glad to know actually.

But also kind of sad because i have no idea how long i have to wait till my Orks get their Codex then.

 Stux wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It's five armies getting far more attention than TWENTY TWO.

And its more or less proportional to their popularity and profit they bring in for GW. Makes perfect sense.

Here's the question, though - if, over that period, you picked 5 non-Space Marine factions, made them the focus of the game/marketing for that period, and released that many kits (split between them, not each), would you see their profitability/popularity increase compared to how they are now?

Off the top of my head - and avoiding power armour - if they'd put that much attention on Dark Eldar, Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks & Tyranids, how would that picture change?

If we take the 120 kits as the right number - and I quibble with some of the items in there, like the Space Marine Heroes releases but whatever - you're talking 24 new kits per faction. For the IG, that could give you two or three new sets of Regiment releases in plastic (assuming 3 kits per release (Infantry, HWT, Command Squad)), plus officers/characters, maybe a recut/expanded multi-kit for the Basilisk, and options I'm not even thinking of here - hell, bring back the Rough Riders!

Eldar could see each Aspect getting a redone kit, and any other Finecast in their range replaced with plastic, and still get new options. Imagine the potential boon for Dark Eldar! They'd have to get new options, rather than having existing ones retired. Maybe Vect could come back? Tyranids might get the Bio/Pyro-vore 3 model kit, or plastic Lictor/Deathleaper, and maybe a plastic Nid Super-heavy. Not sure on Orks, but any remaining Finecast could've been done away with at a minimum.

Heck, even if we ignore the stuff during 6th & 7th edition, and just remove the Primaris side of things, you could achieve a good chunk of the above - maybe not all the Aspects, maybe only the one IG regiment, etc - but plenty of low-hanging fruit could've been picked, given how much of the release schedule has been dominated by that word for three-plus years.

Obviously if they put more marketing and releases into a faction it would sell more than if they didn't.

But I am 100% confident that at this point they get much better ROI on focusing on marines than other factions. They will have data on this, decades worth of it.

Marines are the human power fantasy faction, and they superficially appear to be the good guys to new players. Players always gravitate more to this kind of faction in games, even when all options are presented equally. Add to that the iconic Marine look that transcends the game itself.

Could they release a few less Marines and a few more others? Sure. Would people actually be much happier if they did? I wouldnt bank on it.

I say all this as a Tyranids player too. Yeah, no new kits since 2014 is a bit lame. But honestly I feel like our range is really not that bad compared to several other factions who have had some more recent releases. I would be far more interested in a rules rework than new models to be quite honest.

3-15yrs

 Stux wrote:
They will have data on this, decades worth of it.

I stopped believing that GW has the data and knows exactly what they're doing when their sales forecast indicated they made enough Sisters boxes to last through Christmas (four months), then it sold out in twenty minutes, and they seemed genuinely surprised that Sisters were so popular. They don't actually seem to understand the link between a faction's model support and its popularity.

Age of Sigmar has Stormcast as the comparable superhuman power fantasy faction, yet the release schedule is way less lopsided in their favor. If GW has all the data and human power fantasy factions outsell others and guarantee a better ROI, why aren't Stormcast getting the lion's share of new releases?

You've got two very similar games, and two very similar factions, but in one game the superhumans are treated like just another faction, and in the other superhumans are the constant focus to the exclusion of others. I'm hoping that with Primaris being the replacement of the entire existing Marine line we'll see their releases start to taper off soon, just as Stormcast tapered off once they were fleshed out, but given all the as-yet unreleased Primaris stuff (that land speeder, Hellfuries, Heavy Intercessors for starters), I'm not confident in that.

 catbarf wrote:
...Age of Sigmar has Stormcast as the comparable superhuman power fantasy faction, yet the release schedule is way less lopsided in their favor. If GW has all the data and human power fantasy factions outsell others and guarantee a better ROI, why aren't Stormcast getting the lion's share of new releases?...

Are they not? Stormcast have had four waves of releases (initial, Vanguard-chamber, Extremis-chamber, Sacrosanct-chamber), no other army has had more than one.

The Chaos factions have had more than one.

The problem with AoS' releases is that they've been staggered a lot more than people seem to think. Stormcast also haven't actually had "four waves of releases". Extremis Chamber was a whole separate book, as Vanguard were seemingly slated to be.

The Extremis models are in the most current Stormcast book and share faction keywords/abilities with the rest of the Stormcast. I count them as a "Stormcast release" even if they were in another book.

As to Chaos they've gotten multiple books, but I don't know how you want to count their model releases. They've done Everchosen, one wave of Nurgle stuff, one wave of Slaanesh stuff, one wave of Khorne stuff, and the new generic Chaos Warriors; an individual book could theoretically use stuff from as much as three of those, I suppose, but that means we count the Everchosen and the WoC as four separate releases.

 catbarf wrote:

 Stux wrote:
They will have data on this, decades worth of it.

I stopped believing that GW has the data and knows exactly what they're doing when their sales forecast indicated they made enough Sisters boxes to last through Christmas (four months), then it sold out in twenty minutes, and they seemed genuinely surprised that Sisters were so popular. They don't actually seem to understand the link between a faction's model support and its popularity.

Age of Sigmar has Stormcast as the comparable superhuman power fantasy faction, yet the release schedule is way less lopsided in their favor. If GW has all the data and human power fantasy factions outsell others and guarantee a better ROI, why aren't Stormcast getting the lion's share of new releases?

You've got two very similar games, and two very similar factions, but in one game the superhumans are treated like just another faction, and in the other superhumans are the constant focus to the exclusion of others. I'm hoping that with Primaris being the replacement of the entire existing Marine line we'll see their releases start to taper off soon, just as Stormcast tapered off once they were fleshed out, but given all the as-yet unreleased Primaris stuff (that land speeder, Hellfuries, Heavy Intercessors for starters), I'm not confident in that.

...

Stormcast DO get the lions share of Sigmar releases. They've had full ranges multiples times since Sigmar released. If anything this reinforces my argument on this front.

Yes, they may be a lower percentage of Sigmar than Marines are of 40k. But Marines, as I said, are iconic - they have over 3 decades of being pretty much the poster boy of tabletop warranting.

ERJAK wrote:
Years if ever.

This is new GW mate.

There will be at lest 4, and most likely more, new 40k codexes a year. Space marines will always jump the line, but as it stands, it will never be more than 4 years between codexes now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Extremis models are in the most current Stormcast book and share faction keywords/abilities with the rest of the Stormcast. I count them as a "Stormcast release" even if they were in another book.

The point that you seemed to have missed is that this wasn't going to be the same situation, at least initially, as Marines were. Each of the Stormcast Chambers was going to be its own self-contained thing that could ally with each other or possibly have some 'mixed faction' Warscroll Battalions.

It wasn't until the Vanguard came out that we saw a 'rolled together' book.

As to Chaos they've gotten multiple books, but I don't know how you want to count their model releases. They've done Everchosen, one wave of Nurgle stuff, one wave of Slaanesh stuff, one wave of Khorne stuff, and the new generic Chaos Warriors; an individual book could theoretically use stuff from as much as three of those, I suppose, but that means we count the Everchosen and the WoC as four separate releases.

Blades of Khorne has had three books.
Disciples of Tzeentch have had two.

Not all of them had model releases associated with them, admittedly, but they have changed the structure of the armies fairly heavily each time.

 Stux wrote:
Stormcast DO get the lions share of Sigmar releases. They've had full ranges multiples times since Sigmar released. If anything this reinforces my argument on this front.

I'll reiterate: I already acknowledged that Stormcast dominated the release schedule for a long while (and it was really frustrating, just as it is for 40K) as they fleshed out the faction from scratch. But they've eased back over the last year or so, and more importantly other factions are getting attention too. Right now Stormcast certainly don't get a new release alongside every non-Stormcast release and then some, as is the case with Primaris.

I'm not sure if 40K has ever had a starter set that didn't feature Marines, but AoS has done boxes without Stormcast. There are also fewer factions in AoS that rely on Finecast or > 20 year old plastics for their basic troops. Go figure that that game would have a healthier faction balance than 40K, where I can go into my shop on any given day and see 80+% Marine armies on the tables.

Even if we acknowledge that power fantasy supermen is a popular army trope, and that Marines are iconic to the setting, the current balance of release schedule and faction popularity hasn't been the case for the entire lifetime of the game- chalking it up as market forces dictating that everyone just intrinsically loves Marines and dislikes other factions, brushing off how much of that is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and asserting that GW knows exactly what the community wants despite clear evidence to the contrary (again, see: Sisters popularity) seems unreasonable.

Sisters did so well because it had been built up for years. Over a decade really. If they released them all the time I doubt it would be the same.

And I'm not saying that the current level is absolutely optimal either. I'm just it makes perfect sense for the plurality of releases to be Marines.

There certainly have been boxed sets without Marines, Blood of the Phoenix at least.

Blood of the Phoenix wasn't a starter set. You had to already have at least the codices for the two factions in order to play with it.

Feast of Bones, for contrast, included core rules, and AoS has all the warscrolls free, so it was playable and a viable entry point for the game.

Unless it happened sometime during 6th-7th when I was away from the hobby, I don't think there's ever been an intro set- everything you need to play included- that hasn't been Space Marines vs someone else. That alone is a major contributor to Marines having a larger market share.

 catbarf wrote:
Blood of the Phoenix wasn't a starter set. You had to already have at least the codices for the two factions in order to play with it.

Feast of Bones, for contrast, included core rules, and AoS has all the warscrolls free, so it was playable and a viable entry point for the game.

Unless it happened sometime during 6th-7th when I was away from the hobby, I don't think there's ever been an intro set- everything you need to play included- that hasn't been Space Marines vs someone else. That alone is a major contributor to Marines having a larger market share.

Well that's an unfair comparison - Sigmar gives away all waracrolls for free.

Its a box that pits two factions against each other, that's all thats really relevant.