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I tend to agree with that, but once you have rolled back the faction bloat on the Imperial and Chaos side, there would be space for another Xenos faction in my view.

(I know that that would never happen, of course. No need to tell me.)

They've already removed all the Chapter-specific Space Marine codices. The only one left now is Grey Knights. Every other Chapter book is a supplement to the main Codex.

And hell no to any of your other stuff. The "Witchhunters"/"Daemonhunters" books were trash. GSC don't belong in the Guard codex either.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights as stand alone armies has always been a flawed concept.

 Da Boss wrote:
Deathwatch and Grey Knights as stand alone armies has always been a flawed concept.

I'll agree to this with a caveat:
The flaw is not them as a standalone army, it's that the armies were basically pushed to be armies rather than a collection of heroes. The Killteam system for Deathwatch is and will continue to be, IMO, hot garbage. It should have been a FOC setup rather than a unit.

The same thing goes for Custodes and Grey Knights. Their 'squads', effectively, should have been individual units as a FOC.

Yup. Agree completely. The concept of specialist squads is fine.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Exodites can not be a standalone army. They're, at best, a campaign supplement bit or a unit choice in Craftworlds/Harlequins.

It's the same problem that exists with Planetary Defence Forces and Arbites: they're restricted to specific localities.

Why can't Exodites be stand alone?
They've units all the way from infantry up to titan scale monsters and they are, lore wise, quite separated from the Craftworlders. Sure because they've not been on the table and because GW doesn't focus on Xenos lore stories that much they don't have many "units" but they could easily add some generic infantry units and such to bulk out the range for their own launch. The only restriction in lore is they might need transport by Craftworlders; but that's the same as how most Imperial forces need the Imperial Navy to get them around. Plus with all the lore developments in Eldar it would be easy to say that the push by Yinnari has caused the Craftworlders to share a surge of optimism and to strike out from their worlds; hiring transports from Craftworlders or navigating ancient webway pathways to shift onto the offensive and not just hiding on the rim.

Plus unlike an Imperial Defence force, which is going to use mostly the same gear/designs/ideas as Imperial Guard; Exodites have a big theme - dinosaurs/monsters/beasts/aliens. That alone quickly bulks out their vehicles and elites and such.

First you need a bit of breathing room as the amount of Codex books have risen to crazy heights. So let's squat ALL books and print ONLY the essential ones for Xth time again before we go to our wishlist:

- Space Marine Codex. Includes ONLY the most important units of the respective variant chapters in this new Codex.

- SoB Codex. Also includes Imperial Agents such as Assassins, Daemon Hunters, Grey Knights & Deathwatch.

- Imperial Guard Codex.

- Chaos Codex. Includes CSM, Daemons, Traitor Guard and Chaos Cults.

- Ork Codex. Includes also Kult of Speed, Feral Orks & Freebootaz.

- Eldar Codex. Includes also Dark Eldar.

-Tyranids. Includes also GSC.

- Squat the entire Necron and Newcron lore and pretend they only existed in 40k universe as part of the Imperial comic industry.

- Squat the entire Tau lore and pretend they only existed in 40k universe as part of a fictional race created for Imperial cinema. Imperial citizens want to enjoy some sci-fi too even if it is bad. Ah, and never touch the Tau lore again.


Now to the new factions:

- Robots
These are TRUE AI which means they were never living beings like the Necrons of old.
In addition they don't look like human skeletons (sorry, no terminator rip-off anymore) but feature a plethora of different sizes and forms which defines their role in automaton society. Added bonus: No Egyptian influence on their design.

A typical robot society would encompass a Head AI functioning as president, several smart bots performing complex duties and a swarm of dumbbots doing menial labour.


- Daemon Worlds
This is a throwback to 2nd and allows players with WHFB Chaos armies to use them in 40K. Their list would also be present in the above Chaos Codex.

Seems like a missed opportunity from GW to have not been building towards a xenos mercenaries kind of book with the zoats, etc. Giving tau an alternative to the gundam gunline.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And hell no to any of your other stuff. The "Witchhunters"/"Daemonhunters" books were trash.

The sisters as a stand alone faction are broad enough to carry a codex and units like inquisitors would fit in a thematic sense. Witchhunters as a faction is fine.

By comparison GK suffer from being two fairly specialist units stretched out into an army while DW are codex:sternguard. Even chapter supplements are given more to work with as a theme.

Why get rid of Necrons and Tau? They've plenty of fans.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yup. Agree completely. The concept of specialist squads is fine.

So we're clear, I'm meaning that a Deathwatch or Grey Knight army would be like this:

Deathwatch Captain/Grey Knight Captain as HQ
Jump Pack/Terminator/Techmarine/Aggressor Trooper with HQ level stats for Elites
Tactical/Primaris Phobos/Gravis/Tacitus with HQ level stats for Troops
Assault/Biker/whatever with HQ stats for Fast Attack
HQ level statted equivalents for Heavy Support

Remember the old Movie Marines stuff? That's what should have been done for GK/DW.

Old ones

 Overread wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Exodites can not be a standalone army. They're, at best, a campaign supplement bit or a unit choice in Craftworlds/Harlequins.

It's the same problem that exists with Planetary Defence Forces and Arbites: they're restricted to specific localities.

Why can't Exodites be stand alone?
They've units all the way from infantry up to titan scale monsters and they are, lore wise, quite separated from the Craftworlders. Sure because they've not been on the table and because GW doesn't focus on Xenos lore stories that much they don't have many "units" but they could easily add some generic infantry units and such to bulk out the range for their own launch. The only restriction in lore is they might need transport by Craftworlders; but that's the same as how most Imperial forces need the Imperial Navy to get them around. Plus with all the lore developments in Eldar it would be easy to say that the push by Yinnari has caused the Craftworlders to share a surge of optimism and to strike out from their worlds; hiring transports from Craftworlders or navigating ancient webway pathways to shift onto the offensive and not just hiding on the rim.

I never once said anything about unit ideas being the issue--it's the lockdown on specific planets being the issue. There's a specific reason why I called them out as 'units in Craftworlds/Harlequins' and it is because they would benefit from being used in that vein as bringing in a new type of 'Outcast' unit to go alongside of Rangers.

Plus unlike an Imperial Defence force, which is going to use mostly the same gear/designs/ideas as Imperial Guard; Exodites have a big theme - dinosaurs/monsters/beasts/aliens. That alone quickly bulks out their vehicles and elites and such.

They also have a big theme: stationary worlds defended from outside threats primarily by the Craftworlds.

Additionally, Imperial Defence Forces would have wildly different gear and that's not even going into uniforms/armor patterns. A lot of the 'relic tanks' that we had FW release(Crassus and its variants plus the Malcadors) prior to the Horus Heresy were items that came out of storage from PDF vaults as they're trash for frontline units. And then that's not even getting into the designs we've never seen like the Reavers and other 'light' tanks. Plus the local tech level is the main deciding factor for PDFs--this is where you'd realistically see things like Rough Riders.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, Imperial Defence Forces would have wildly different gear and that's not even going into uniforms/armor patterns. A lot of the 'relic tanks' that we had FW release(Crassus and its variants plus the Malcadors) prior to the Horus Heresy were items that came out of storage from PDF vaults as they're trash for frontline units. And then that's not even getting into the designs we've never seen like the Reavers and other 'light' tanks. Plus the local tech level is the main deciding factor for PDFs--this is where you'd realistically see things like Rough Riders.

Very similar to the old renegades and heretics by the sounds of it.

There are a few side factions that are beholden to forgeworld - a whole alternate mechanicum lineup for example. I don't fancy their chances of making it into 40k though.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Remember the old Movie Marines stuff? That's what should have been done for GK/DW.

Deathwatch were never movie marines, they are just regular marines on loan. GW could have included them as a chapter tactic at any point and 5e sternguard were deathwatch by any other name.

Deathwatch were described as individuals who each brought a unique skillset to a Kill Team.

Hence why my idea is to have them actually utilized as characters that each take up a FOC slot rather than the current mechanism. That was the issue that existed previously with the 'Killteam Formations' and will continue to exist until they actually do something other than just keeping them as 'if you take X unit type in the squad, you get X bonus!'.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why get rid of Necrons and Tau? They've plenty of fans.

Strg Alt said get rid of their lore, not their factions.

ccs wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why get rid of Necrons and Tau? They've plenty of fans.

Strg Alt said get rid of their lore, not their factions.

They said...

Huh. So they did. I misread "lore" as "line".

So not as bad as getting rid of the models, rules, and fluff, but still. Plenty of people like the fluff.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why get rid of Necrons and Tau? They've plenty of fans.

Squats also had fans and were removed nonetheless as they were downright superfluous.

Eldar have already the trait of having advanced tech so there is no need for the Tau.

Necrons need an overhaul. People want to see a true AI faction in the game and not silly, fake robots (remember, the Necrons were once REAL people) cosplaying as Tomb Kings in space. Newcrons are even more awful from a design standpoint than the Squats and those midgets sole purpose was to make fun of real life biker machos simply be existing on the tabletop.

Battle Sisters already have the trait of being humans in power armour so there is no need for Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines.

I'm not sure on preference, but Hrud, Exodites and Dark Mechanicus seem like the only factions that get mentioned reasonably often in the modern fluff* but have no models.

*I.e. those bits of the 8th edition Codexes and PA that used to have "X fought Y, and won. X fought Z and everyone died".

I will go ahead and echo so many other posters in this thread and say I'd love to see a full-on Tau Auxiliaries faction. Some new models/units for Kroot and Vespids would be cool, but also they could add Demiurg and Gue'vesa (humans) to the mix. Indeed, Gue'vesa are a pretty common thing in Tau fluff so it astounds me that they haven't gotten models at all (they were mentioned in an old Imperial Armor book but I don't think they had bespoke models; please correct me if I'm wrong though ).

Also, what about the Hrud? I don't know much about them, but I've heard them mentioned enough times on Dakka and elsewhere to think that maybe they could get a full release if we were to get a completely new Xenos faction. The only thing I've consistently heard about them is that they have some kind of temporal manipulation abilities (but I don't know if it's technology or some ability of the Hrud themselves), which I'm not sure how they'd translate into tabletop rules.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why get rid of Necrons and Tau? They've plenty of fans.

Necrons need an overhaul. People want to see a true AI faction in the game and not silly, fake robots (remember, the Necrons were once REAL people) cosplaying as Tomb Kings in space. Newcrons are even more awful from a design standpoint than the Squats and those midgets sole purpose was to make fun of real life biker machos simply be existing on the tabletop.

Source your claims.

My background for my necron dudes is exactly that. They are Imperial Androids, the Men of Iron from the background, corrupted by an IA xenos.

The less humanoid constructs are the original Xenos constructs.

Hence the taboo against AI in 40k.

You can write whatever background you want for your stuff. I can't make my own minis though, so I am glad GW has necron minis for me to use and to help provide inspiration.

A Xeno faction corrupted by Chaos such as Yu'vath or Saruthi

 Da Boss wrote:
My background for my necron dudes is exactly that. They are Imperial Androids, the Men of Iron from the background, corrupted by an IA xenos.

The less humanoid constructs are the original Xenos constructs.

Hence the taboo against AI in 40k.

You can write whatever background you want for your stuff. I can't make my own minis though, so I am glad GW has necron minis for me to use and to help provide inspiration.

You still are burdened with the hunchbacked terminator models. An innovative take on the robot faction is badly needed. Sadly GW would rather try to sell us SM all over again (Primaris) than to step away from their rip-off design to create something unique in that regard.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Exodites can not be a standalone army. They're, at best, a campaign supplement bit or a unit choice in Craftworlds/Harlequins.

It's the same problem that exists with Planetary Defence Forces and Arbites: they're restricted to specific localities.

Why can't Exodites be stand alone?
They've units all the way from infantry up to titan scale monsters and they are, lore wise, quite separated from the Craftworlders. Sure because they've not been on the table and because GW doesn't focus on Xenos lore stories that much they don't have many "units" but they could easily add some generic infantry units and such to bulk out the range for their own launch. The only restriction in lore is they might need transport by Craftworlders; but that's the same as how most Imperial forces need the Imperial Navy to get them around. Plus with all the lore developments in Eldar it would be easy to say that the push by Yinnari has caused the Craftworlders to share a surge of optimism and to strike out from their worlds; hiring transports from Craftworlders or navigating ancient webway pathways to shift onto the offensive and not just hiding on the rim.

I never once said anything about unit ideas being the issue--it's the lockdown on specific planets being the issue. There's a specific reason why I called them out as 'units in Craftworlds/Harlequins' and it is because they would benefit from being used in that vein as bringing in a new type of 'Outcast' unit to go alongside of Rangers.

Plus unlike an Imperial Defence force, which is going to use mostly the same gear/designs/ideas as Imperial Guard; Exodites have a big theme - dinosaurs/monsters/beasts/aliens. That alone quickly bulks out their vehicles and elites and such.

They also have a big theme: stationary worlds defended from outside threats primarily by the Craftworlds.

Additionally, Imperial Defence Forces would have wildly different gear and that's not even going into uniforms/armor patterns. A lot of the 'relic tanks' that we had FW release(Crassus and its variants plus the Malcadors) prior to the Horus Heresy were items that came out of storage from PDF vaults as they're trash for frontline units. And then that's not even getting into the designs we've never seen like the Reavers and other 'light' tanks. Plus the local tech level is the main deciding factor for PDFs--this is where you'd realistically see things like Rough Riders.

Exodite planets are invaded all the time - biel tan set itself up as galactic exodite protection force because of this perpetual threat.

Also, the Phoenix Rising awakening book had the dragon knights march into the web way to fight alongside their brethren to pay back the protection they'd been afforded.

And if GW can pull CUSTODES fighting as an army, then nothing else holds water. Not only should they be restricted to planetside, they're only restricted to ONE planet. a planet they were originally sworn to never leave.

How convenient that GW can just wave their hand and the emperor's personal bodyguards can leave the imperial palace, but an exodite king deciding he wants to invade other planets and build an empire is just too much....

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
My background for my necron dudes is exactly that. They are Imperial Androids, the Men of Iron from the background, corrupted by an IA xenos.

The less humanoid constructs are the original Xenos constructs.

Hence the taboo against AI in 40k.

You can write whatever background you want for your stuff. I can't make my own minis though, so I am glad GW has necron minis for me to use and to help provide inspiration.

You still are burdened with the hunchbacked terminator models. An innovative take on the robot faction is badly needed. Sadly GW would rather try to sell us SM all over again (Primaris) than to step away from their rip-off design to create something unique in that regard.

no they're not, . just because you don;t like something, doesn;'t mean everyone else dislikes them. Lots of people LIKE Necrons replacing them with a totally differant model line with totally differant lore serves zero purpose. after all GW KNOWS Necrons sell. they have no idea how well your frankly dull "lol evil kill robots left over from centuries ago" would sell

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
My background for my necron dudes is exactly that. They are Imperial Androids, the Men of Iron from the background, corrupted by an IA xenos.

The less humanoid constructs are the original Xenos constructs.

Hence the taboo against AI in 40k.

You can write whatever background you want for your stuff. I can't make my own minis though, so I am glad GW has necron minis for me to use and to help provide inspiration.

You still are burdened with the hunchbacked terminator models.

Damn it, I hate it when GW insists upon selling me the models I want.
I've always been just fine with GW selling me an army of almost-T-800 Endoskeletons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:

And if GW can pull CUSTODES fighting as an army, then nothing else holds water. Not only should they be restricted to planetside, they're only restricted to ONE planet. a planet they were originally sworn to never leave.

Maybe all battles against Custodes are holo-deck like training exercises.
I mean, they gotta train, right? And if they can't leave the planet how would they ever be prepared to fight vs xyz?

Necrons should really provide three options:
1 - Oldcron, C'tan lorded horror-from-beyond army
2 - Newcron, for the weird people who like it
3 - AI-run-amok Crons, where they're under the dominion of ancient protocalls or potentially self aware non-living control.

Also they should have Pariahs.

Bonus points for twisted human auxilliaries.

They were better when they were chaos androids...

Racerguy180 wrote:
They were better when they were chaos androids...

that's an odd stance to take, they really didn't have much to them iirc. It also seems like they could both exist without a problem.