Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sarouan wrote:
It shows it's possible to put the legs in the armor's thighs.

It doesn't matter if the legs fit in the thigh section. The pilot cannot bend the knees, as so the suit cannot do it either.

Well I kinda know what they were thinking, sort of. I mean it could be better (much better) but it is not something worst.

My problem is rather what its role is? Power Mace/Sword plus heavy bolter/flamer/melta and what ever is on top can end up being very costly.

Actually, it would be rather cool if those would be geared up for close combat like some nun battle knights. If holy trinity is not enough then oversized mace can do the job. Or better, eviscerator(s).

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
It shows it's possible to put the legs in the armor's thighs.

It doesn't matter if the legs fit in the thigh section. The pilot cannot bend the knees, as so the suit cannot do it either.

At least that suit "has" knees (even if by your logic it cannot bend them).

Classic (pre-Dreadknight) Marine Dreadnoughts don't even have knees.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
It shows it's possible to put the legs in the armor's thighs.

It doesn't matter if the legs fit in the thigh section. The pilot cannot bend the knees, as so the suit cannot do it either.

At least that suit "has" knees (even if by your logic it cannot bend them).

Classic (pre-Dreadknight) Marine Dreadnoughts don't even have knees.

The boxnaught has knees, the pilot just doesnt use their meatknees to pilot them.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
It shows it's possible to put the legs in the armor's thighs.

It doesn't matter if the legs fit in the thigh section. The pilot cannot bend the knees, as so the suit cannot do it either.

why would the suit not be able to bend its knees?

Because the suit is supposed to mimic the movements of the pilot's body.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Because the suit is supposed to mimic the movements of the pilot's body.

You assume that's the case, but that's not necessarily how it works.

I don't begrudge Sisters their terminators/monstrous infantry - but yes, these seem to fall into that Centurion/Dreadknight abyss of "just why?"

These are awesome. Finally a set of walkers whose pilots are still holy enough to receive their Order's trait and use AoF!

Righteous, holy walkers to complement the penitent ones we already have.

Now as for design: what we need is a) a side by side photo of a regular sister position so that her head is even with the pilot's head and b) a side view to see how deep the thigh sleeve is at the knee level.

The first tells us whether the pilot's shoulders are as wide as they should be, whether the arms are as long as they should be and where the sister's feet are.

Here's my guess: the side by side will prove the shoulders and arms are dead on. And the arch of her foot is directly over the hinge pin at the knee. Imagine that she's wearing stiletto heels so long the she's standing en pointe; her instep is at 180 degrees to her shin, but she doesn't slip off the pin because it's locked between the sole of the "shoe" and the heel.

The pic from the side will confirm whether or not the thigh of the suit, though narrow from the front, is DEEP enough to accommodate her foot at 90 degrees to her shin at the knee joint of the suit. If so, she's got all the range of motion she needs to operate a pedal that drives the pneumatics and gyroscopic stabilizers in the lower limb. She wouldn't even need to return her foot to a full 90 degrees- even if she could straighten it to 135, that still gives her 45 degrees of control.

Next time you're in your car, put your foot so that your sole is flat on the pedal. Then, keeping your thigh and knee still, increase the angle between your shin and your instep by 45 degrees.

If that can move your car (and obviously it will) it could control the lower part of the suit's leg while the pilot does a goose step to control the movement at the thigh.

This is even more feasible once you realize that the sister is fastened into a harness in such a way that she's hanging, not standing. That makes the ankle pivot that controls the lower leg of the suit easier for the pilot.

Could the suit's arm be placed in such a way to interact more directly with the pilot's arm? Maybe. But the truth is that the thumb operated joy stick probably gives you a greater degree of control. It's the machine that's doing all the work.

And some people are complaining now about how long the legs look compared to the torso; if you dropped the shoulders of the suit, the legs would look even longer compared to the torso.

And like I said, even if the models were worse looking than they are, I'd still field them, because a mortifier that gets Order traits and AoF is terrifying.

Personal I think they look great, but that's all in the eye of the beholder.

Tyel wrote:
I don't begrudge Sisters their terminators/monstrous infantry - but yes, these seem to fall into that Centurion/Dreadknight abyss of "just why?"

Because one of the sculpting team made them. So they get rules now.
I still find it baffling, but we keep getting told that's how GW works.

Sarouan wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Because the suit is supposed to mimic the movements of the pilot's body.

You assume that's the case, but that's not necessarily how it works.

That's how the arms are supposed to work. And clearly, the SoB isn't neurally connected to the machine, like a Marine or penitent would be.

It's an ape system, except half of it doesn't work.

PenitentJake wrote:

And like I said, even if the models were worse looking than they are, I'd still field them, because a mortifier that gets Order traits and AoF is terrifying.

Indeed...that's the big difference that will make them really shine, IMHO. Bloody Rose Parangons will certainly be horrifying, assuming they keep the same rules of course.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Because the suit is supposed to mimic the movements of the pilot's body.

???

The invictor has a marine sitting down in it, his legs arent moving.
You're judging the model by an assumption you've made that isnt based on anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Because the suit is supposed to mimic the movements of the pilot's body.

You assume that's the case, but that's not necessarily how it works.

That's how the arms are supposed to work. And clearly, the SoB isn't neurally connected to the machine, like a Marine or penitent would be.

It's an ape system, except half of it doesn't work.

she very well could.... only her head pops out of the walker.


She could also simply have pedals in the legs to make each leg go forward/backward and a machine spirit that calculates the movements needed based on the groud layout.

 His Master's Voice wrote:


That's how the arms are supposed to work. And clearly, the SoB isn't neurally connected to the machine, like a Marine or penitent would be.

It's an ape system, except half of it doesn't work.

New sisters of battle have the same implants than marines for power armors (as showed by the repentias). It's not a stretch then to believe they can have the same advantages than marines when it's about connecting them to external armor systems like centurions and such.

Of course, we're arguing about realism in an army with litteral church tanks, so having these Parangon battlesuits doesn't faze me.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
???

The invictor has a marine sitting down in it, his legs arent moving.
You're judging the model by an assumption you've made that isnt based on anything.

The Invictor has a control stick, a set of throttles and pedals. The idea of piloting a walking machine with a control stick is silly, but it's clearly how the machine is supposed to work. It's just as clear that the idea behind the SOB suit is an ape system, much like the Dreadknight.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
She could also simply have pedals in the legs to make each leg go forward/backward and a machine spirit that calculates the movements needed based on the groud layout.

Yeah, and maybe she has a minibar tucked away in the torso armour.

Look, if the suit has the means to allow the pilot functional control over the legs without the ape system, there's absolutely no reason to expose the arms of the pilot. Either the legs don't work, or the arm ape system is pointless.

Which, again, is the whole problem. They could have put a Sister covered with a shroud in the chest cavity of the suit, say her faith is so great it caused her mortal body to fail, but also allowed her to power the machine and continue to fight for the God Emperor and it would have been a better for the setting than this attempt at realism that trips halfway through.

 His Master's Voice wrote:


The Invictor has a control stick, a set of throttles and pedals. The idea of piloting a walking machine with a control stick is silly, but it's clearly how the machine is supposed to work. It's just as clear that the idea behind the SOB suit is an ape system, much like the Dreadknight.

This is the Dreadknight :



You can clearly see the legs don't have anything to mimic their moves. They're just resting on pedals.

So even if the Parangon works like the Dreadknight, just with legs inside the amor's thighs instead of outside, it's still not exactly an ape system. You just assume it's the case with no proof.

I guess we'll have to wait for GW to tell us exactly how it works. Or not.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
???

The invictor has a marine sitting down in it, his legs arent moving.
You're judging the model by an assumption you've made that isnt based on anything.

The Invictor has a control stick, a set of throttles and pedals. The idea of piloting a walking machine with a control stick is silly, but it's clearly how the machine is supposed to work. It's just as clear that the idea behind the SOB suit is an ape system, much like the Dreadknight.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
She could also simply have pedals in the legs to make each leg go forward/backward and a machine spirit that calculates the movements needed based on the groud layout.

Yeah, and maybe she has a minibar tucked away in the torso armour.

Look, if the suit has the means to allow the pilot functional control over the legs without the ape system, there's absolutely no reason to expose the arms of the pilot. Either the legs don't work, or the arm ape system is pointless.

Which, again, is the whole problem. They could have put a Sister covered with a shroud in the chest cavity of the suit, say her faith is so great it caused her mortal body to fail, but also allowed her to power the machine and continue to fight for the God Emperor and it would have been a better for the setting than this attempt at realism that trips halfway through.

so basically you wanted a sisters dreadnought....

Sarouan wrote:
You just assume it's the case with no proof.

Except for the arms. Which apparently do not count.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
so basically you wanted a sisters dreadnought....

A sister dreadnought would have been a better fit for 40k, yes.

Sarouan wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Because the suit is supposed to mimic the movements of the pilot's body.

You assume that's the case, but that's not necessarily how it works.

@Sarouan:
Yep, the preview pics didn't come with a user manual. Mobility isn't restricted.

But a Sisters Dreadnought is basically the Penetant Engine in design.

Also you're forgetting this is the Imperium. It's fully possible that they've a specific diagram for building a spinal or nervous or mental connection to allow leg movement control, but not one for arm or upper body control. So being the Imperium they adapt rather than back-engineer the technology. So they've nervous connections for the legs which means she doesn't have to be able to move her legs to move the mech; and the upper body requires a different control system entirely.



Or perhaps the legs have an advanced intelligence system and all she needs to be able to do is move her thighs for the hip and upper leg portions and the machine uses sensors and such to move the lower leg automatically. Much like how some prosthetics in the real world work to allow those with missing limbs greater control with a limited command of a "stump". Only in this case the stump is the sisters full leg.


This is clearly emulating the Terminator style class. She's built into it rather than infront of it (an element that might well appear clearer when seen in the real world and from different angles).

So who leaked out the Grey Knights Babycarrier schematics? Was it you Brother Iamnotasororitas?

Picture unrelated

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So who leaked out the Grey Knights Babycarrier schematics? Was it you Brother Iamnotasororitas?

Picture unrelated

Looks like the pic has been made in a mirror cabinet at the local carnival.

I'd been joking about how much the 9e mission packet reminded me of the Warmachine Steamroller packet, but now we're getting TAGs in 40k too? What's next? Token-based alternating activations from Legion?

Thanks BCB... that should clear things up for anyone with plastic crack colored glasses.

I personally don't like it, but I'm sure many will. Part of what I liked about the SoB relaunch was how everything looked so "old school", and this doesn't. It looks like something Cawl had a hand in designing. But like I said, that's just my subjective opinion.

My question is: Would SoB players have been happier with this, or a plastic Repressor? Replace something that was taken away, or get something new?

I hate the dreadknight, I think it was one of the dumbest designs 40k ever received. Partly because it resembled nothing else and partly the design.

I don't hate these as much, as the pilot is more fully integrated into the suit, with control armatures separate. I imagine there's either an accelerator button on the joysticks or they've got accelerator pedals in the thigh armour.

They also relate to the penitent engines (in that they're the same size and rely on a pilot strapped to the front) so, unlike the dreadknight, have at least some internal precedence and logic.

I don't think they're amazing but they make more sense to me.

Should have just been like this...

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Should have just been like this...

Thats pretty much what it is, but with a grimdark paintjob and a more dynamic pose.

Sarouan wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:


That's how the arms are supposed to work. And clearly, the SoB isn't neurally connected to the machine, like a Marine or penitent would be.

It's an ape system, except half of it doesn't work.

New sisters of battle have the same implants than marines for power armors (as showed by the repentias). It's not a stretch then to believe they can have the same advantages than marines when it's about connecting them to external armor systems like centurions and such.

Of course, we're arguing about realism in an army with litteral church tanks, so having these Parangon battlesuits doesn't faze me.

Ok, I haven't read up on any new SoB lore in a while, but are you absolutely sure that's a Black Carapace implant and not just a black leotard to preserve the Repentia's modesty?

On the topic of the Sister Suit - besides looking weirdly thin for an Imperial design, I'm having the same problem with it as I have with the Dreadknight, Invictor Warsuit or Stormsurge: why is this thing open-topped? At least wear a helmet!

After plenty of deliberation, and taking my queues from the centurions and terminators (which have better proportions IMO) I think the models maybe salvageable. And actually with very little careful modification these could look really good!



On second throught, maybe shorten both arms too!

Possibly bring the legs together a bit.