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 catbarf wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Base or no base, 10 marines are not fitting in a rhino. It looks bad in the games I am playing and that's what I care about. It bugs me. I'm not saying this is some great or widespread problem that must be dealt with, just that personally the large number of vehicles that cannot reasonably fit anywhere close to their supposed number of occupants is an irritant.

You ever see an M113? That thing can fit thirteen people. Two crew, eleven passengers. It's basically a human-scale Rhino. And yet look how small it is compared to the dudes riding on it:

That's box art which I think is a bit deceptive, when you look at a photo with real people instead of drawn people it looks a lot more like they'd fit in easily enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:
Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.

I'd love to see that model.

1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...

I remember that model, it was a normal Rhino with the top open and a bunch of marines seated inside it, I don't remember where I've seen it and google fails me. I also don't remember if it was a full 10 marines? And they were probably rogue trader era marines.

The current rhino with the current marines I've seen images of 4 dudes inside it, lol.

EDIT: Found this one: https://imgur.com/a/e1zi2

They look like the old marines though.

The marines were smaller.

A.T. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:
Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.

I'd love to see that model.

1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...

Not that one. I distinctly remember it being an old Rhino (iiirc) that was painted yellow, or possibly Imperial Fists. I looked for it yesterday to no avail. I can see it so clearly in my head.

I remember it too. They were packed in like sardines, but they were in there. Most were sitting.

 amanita wrote:
I remember it too. They were packed in like sardines, but they were in there. Most were sitting.

Yep. Not sure how they'd get out as it struck me none of them had room to move, but they were all in there. Proving the point that YES 10 SM would fit in a rhino.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Did you ever be inside an M113?
I did, so I can say it can carry eleven men, but they are average human beings (so not large like the astartes), they wear regular army clothes (so no power armour) and they don't have back pack (he power armour can't work without it, if I'm not wrong), so we can't do a direct comparison among the actual military vehicles and the space marines ones.
Do you can put ten space marines in a Rhino?
Maybe yes, but there is enough room inside the vehicles to contain the troops, the crew, the mechanical and the weapon systems? The troops have enough room for a quick exit from the vehicle? In fact the M113 was substituted by the larger M2 Bradly, which can carry only 3+6 men, while the M113 could carry 2+11 men.

Well, the Rhino is not the size of an M113, but it's the same shape scaled up significantly, with roughly the same proportions compared to a Marine as a Marine does compared to a Guardsman. For the sake of comparison:

M113: 4.9m long, 2.7m wide, 2.5m tall
Rhino: 6.6m long, 4.5m wide, 3.6m tall

So the Rhino has well over double the footprint of an M113, and over three times the volume, so it's not like we're literally discussing shoving ten Marines in a M113. Fitting a lesser number of larger troops seems plausible to me, YMMV. I know it's hard or even impossible to do with the actual minis, but try to stick dynamically posed, heroically scaled army men in any APC and it's not going to work either.

Also the Bradley isn't an APC despite the original intent, so it's not especially relevant here. It's basically a Predator with some troops shoved in the back.

 catbarf wrote:

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Did you ever be inside an M113?
I did, so I can say it can carry eleven men, but they are average human beings (so not large like the astartes), they wear regular army clothes (so no power armour) and they don't have back pack (he power armour can't work without it, if I'm not wrong), so we can't do a direct comparison among the actual military vehicles and the space marines ones.
Do you can put ten space marines in a Rhino?
Maybe yes, but there is enough room inside the vehicles to contain the troops, the crew, the mechanical and the weapon systems? The troops have enough room for a quick exit from the vehicle? In fact the M113 was substituted by the larger M2 Bradly, which can carry only 3+6 men, while the M113 could carry 2+11 men.

Well, the Rhino is not the size of an M113, but it's the same shape scaled up significantly, with roughly the same proportions compared to a Marine as a Marine does compared to a Guardsman. For the sake of comparison:

M113: 4.9m long, 2.7m wide, 2.5m tall
Rhino: 6.6m long, 4.5m wide, 3.6m tall

So the Rhino has well over double the footprint of an M113, and over three times the volume, so it's not like we're literally discussing shoving ten Marines in a M113. Fitting a lesser number of larger troops seems plausible to me, YMMV.
[…]

That is more or less what I wrote in a later post: the Rhino is in the right scale to carry a squad of 4/5 space marines, no more.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
That is more or less what I wrote in a later post: the Rhino is in the right scale to carry a squad of 4/5 space marines, no more.

Given that we have an example in this thread of nine Marine models, with their goofy dynamic squatting poses and heroic proportions, fitting into a plastic Rhino model, I stand by my assessment. I think you are overestimating the size of Marines a bit- even if you contend that the minis aren't big enough to be 'truescale', usually truescale conversions are about increasing their height, not footprint.

the original 10 Marines fit conversion was around 2006, using the new/current Rhino and RT plastic Marines
as far as I know it was lost with the crash of Warseer

and yes, it is supposed to be 6 Marines sitting (3 on each side), 3 Marines standing and 1 sitting next to the driver

it is just that Marines got larger over time with each new Box, while the size of the Rhino is still the same

Most of the vehicles are "close enough", in my opinion.

As gaming pieces I'm totally fine with pretty much all the vehicles.

 catbarf wrote:

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
That is more or less what I wrote in a later post: the Rhino is in the right scale to carry a squad of 4/5 space marines, no more.

Given that we have an example in this thread of nine Marine models, with their goofy dynamic squatting poses and heroic proportions, fitting into a plastic Rhino model, I stand by my assessment. I think you are overestimating the size of Marines a bit- even if you contend that the minis aren't big enough to be 'truescale', usually truescale conversions are about increasing their height, not footprint.

Given that in a real vehicle the troops need enough room to exit rapidly from the vehicle and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad, I repeat what I already state: if the Rino were in the same scale of the space marine, it shouldn't carry more that 5 men. Otherwise the scale of the Rhino isn't right and if the rules state it can carry up to 10 marines, then the scale is very bad; at least in my opinion.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
...and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad...

Out of curiosity have you had a chance to sit with a squad in a newer APC/IFV? I'm looking at Wikipedia and they seem to be getting bigger (M113: 4.9m x 2.7m x 2.5m, 12.3 tons; Puma 7.6m x 3.9m x 3.6m, 30-40 tons depending on configuration), but is the passenger compartment getting any bigger or is all the extra size/weight armour and turret?

6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.

Good thing the current Rhino model is 21 years old then.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Given that in a real vehicle the troops need enough room to exit rapidly from the vehicle and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad, I repeat what I already state: if the Rino were in the same scale of the space marine, it shouldn't carry more that 5 men. Otherwise the scale of the Rhino isn't right and if the rules state it can carry up to 10 marines, then the scale is very bad; at least in my opinion.

Okay, so what you are arguing is not that 10 Marines can't physically fit in a Rhino, but that you don't think 10 Marines in a Rhino is tactically/doctrinally sound? That's not the same thing.

While I can't speak for the M113 personally, space is definitely at a premium in a BMP, Stryker, or Humvee. Having nine Marines all crammed shoulder-to-shoulder in the back of a Rhino seems closer to this than what you're suggesting of just four or five Marines in the back plus one up front.

 catbarf wrote:

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Given that in a real vehicle the troops need enough room to exit rapidly from the vehicle and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad, I repeat what I already state: if the Rino were in the same scale of the space marine, it shouldn't carry more that 5 men. Otherwise the scale of the Rhino isn't right and if the rules state it can carry up to 10 marines, then the scale is very bad; at least in my opinion.

Okay, so what you are arguing is not that 10 Marines can't physically fit in a Rhino, but that you don't think 10 Marines in a Rhino is tactically/doctrinally sound? That's not the same thing.

The tread is about the scale, so I was talking about the scale of the miniatures, not about the tactical/strategical/doctrinal considerations or about the lore.

 catbarf wrote:
While I can't speak for the M113 personally, space is definitely at a premium in a BMP, Stryker, or Humvee. Having nine Marines all crammed shoulder-to-shoulder in the back of a Rhino seems closer to this than what you're suggesting of just four or five Marines in the back plus one up front.

I hope you will forgive me, but I'm a little bit tired about this part of the discussion, so I will no more reply about it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.

More accurately you care about the models your using today.
Because we're playing the same game & yet my 20+ year old DA still fit in their 20+ year old MK1b Rhinos (theoretically - I'm not going to try & model it even though I've seen it done)

 Grimtuff wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:
Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.

I'd love to see that model.

1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...

Not that one. I distinctly remember it being an old Rhino (iiirc) that was painted yellow, or possibly Imperial Fists. I looked for it yesterday to no avail. I can see it so clearly in my head.

I vaguely remember seeing it as well. It had to be in a White Dwarf, and as I recall, they had removed the backpacks from the marines to fit them. I think it was shortly after the Mk II rhino version had come out and they were touting how it could actually fit the squad inside (because the inside was modelled, unlike the prior version).

 catbarf wrote:

Also the Bradley isn't an APC despite the original intent, so it's not especially relevant here. It's basically a Predator with some troops shoved in the back.

Just a teeny-tiny nitpick, but Pentagon Wars is a movie based on a book by a man belonging to self-called "reformers" group. And by "reformers" they were some of the most hidebound traditionalists to ever grace the US military. Some members of the group thought that guided weapons were a waste of time and money, and the best airplane for the USAF would be a "blitzfighter", a barely-above-Me262 tier jet armed only with a 30mm autocannon cause modern jets were too complex and expensive. Another part of the same clique insists that M113 is the best troop transport ever, and US Army should stick to it (pretty much forever, it is the pinnacle of APC tech).

So yeah, it's essentially a movie based on a self-martyrdom fanfic of a luddite.

As to the issue of fitting 10 marines in- you also want those marines seated. Transporting standing troops in a vehicle that is very much not OSHA-safe at high speeds is just a way to get someone hurt or their equipment damaged. It'd be real awkward if brother Leodontis got to the battle with his lenses cracked by brother Dodones' driving cause he wasn't sitting securely.

ccs wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.

More accurately you care about the models your using today.
Because we're playing the same game & yet my 20+ year old DA still fit in their 20+ year old MK1b Rhinos (theoretically - I'm not going to try & model it even though I've seen it done)

Yeah so like I said--the game I am playing today.

In all of this discussion about whether the marines can fit in the vehicles, are people looking at the exteriors or the interiors or the vehicles? Because those 2nd generation models have interiors which significantly reduce the amount of space to pack troops in, unlike the first generation Rhino.

It's entirely plausible that when they were working out how big the vehicles (and their interiors) needed to be that they figured that the backpacks could be separate and stashed off somewhere, like you would for a trooper that wasn't in power armor, but "What the does the backpack do?" changed between then and now.

Wait...what?

My landraider is that big? Is this some lens trickery? I must investigate...

Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?

 Grimtuff wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:
Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.

I'd love to see that model.

1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...

Not that one. I distinctly remember it being an old Rhino (iiirc) that was painted yellow, or possibly Imperial Fists. I looked for it yesterday to no avail. I can see it so clearly in my head.

If it's the one I think it is, it wasn't a Golden Demon entry, just something a guy did for show. It used the original rhino kit and old landspeeder crew, with no backpacks. Fairly sure it was on a Geocities site, so long gone now.

The other one posted in the thread here, with the current rhino kit, has 2nd edition marines inside. I tried something similar some years back using the 3rd ed-onwards marine models, and they physically didn't fit... the floor in the current rhino is too high, and so there is not enough clearance.

That being said, it's close enough that it works so long as you're not actually trying to put the models inside.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?

Generally, because they're the ones that look most out of place to people. Although I have doubts about the ability of Eldar Guardians to physically fit into the back of a Falcon or Wave Serpent as well...

 Blndmage wrote:
Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?

I think everyone's in agreement that, say, a crew of Orks can fit in a Snazzwagon, given that there are literally Orks modelled inside the Snazzwagon. Same goes for most Tau, Drukhari, and Necron stuff (including transports).

If any of y'all haven't recently, go to the FW website if it isn't down right now and look at the interior shots of the Manta. It's disturbingly to-scale.

 Flipsiders wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?

I think everyone's in agreement that, say, a crew of Orks can fit in a Snazzwagon, given that there are literally Orks modelled inside the Snazzwagon. Same goes for most Tau, Drukhari, and Necron stuff (including transports).

If any of y'all haven't recently, go to the FW website if it isn't down right now and look at the interior shots of the Manta. It's disturbingly to-scale.

The Ork Trukk used to feel a bit small for the number of models that were supposedly able to fit in it, but with more recent waves GW have upsized it all to be more reasonable.

FW tends to scale things properly when they're given the chance. If they're using GW models as a base they are obviously going to have the same flaws as GW models, but the fully FW models in general tend to be large enough to fit what they're supposed to be able to fit, like the Gorgon where they sold strips of DKOK to fill it up.

 Blndmage wrote:
Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?

Well you figure...
-Chaos vehicles are either the same as imperial ones or daemon engines
-Orks/DEldar/GSC are difficult to define since they can reasonably be grabbing the vehicle's sides/roof
-Necron transports are mobile means of teleportation
-Do the Eldar transports physically transport their dudes? I always assumed there was some teleportation shenanigans going on, because the amount of Eldar infantry so clearly don't fit.
-Tyranids have transports but do weird bio-stuff with them.
-Tau aren't bad.

Anyways, what about non-Marine Imperials? The amount of transport on AdMech seems a bit off too me, IG it depends on exactly what is going into what, SoB... I don't actually know how many can be transported.

A couple more for yuks:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Let's say this is a Rhino with some space marine:

Drawn your own conclusion…

See, it's easy to draw a different conclusion with different models and different photos. Humans don't walk around on bases, aren't "heroically proportioned" and don't wear big hats. Also the TSons are big compared to the Tactical Marines that the Rhino was scaled to originally. I popped off some bases and took a few shots, and in my army they're much more reasonably scaled.

Wait...what?

My landraider is that big? Is this some lens trickery? I must investigate...

Granted, the shot maximizes the cross-section of the Raider to the lens, but it is twice as tall as a Marine. If you go by the Marine being 7ish feet tall, the Land Raider is 14+, making it effing gigantic for a tank.

Looking at Insectums pictures I'd say MKI Rhino really was a bit small, even at its time, but MKII Rhino and Land Raider actually have a good scale for Marines of the same age.
Now if I let my 8th edition Plague Marines come out of my MKI Rhino things get strange. But my MKI Rhino is also painted blue like the Tardis, warp magic explains everything I guess .

We all know that old imperial, space marines in particular are awful for scale, but the one that specifically bugs me the most is the Drukhari/Harlequin venom... That's not even that old of a kit and they managed to fudge the scale of it that much, and even for pointy ears, I'm not accepting they can ride on those smooth ergonomic wings safely.

I suppose crammed in they would fit, but also shoot competently out of it though? No, sorry... One of the worse scale mistakes going for me.

EDIT: Actually, there's a few more modern vehicles as well, ork trukks with everyone being able to shoot out of it also, that just wouldn't happen.

Come to think of it, I can think of loads of modern ones now, Stormravens, not only being an ugly kit without a forgeworld upgrade, 10 marines are meant to fit in there okay and deploy quickly? Corvus Blackstars as well, I'm not having that marines can actually stand up inside it to be able to quickly deploy out, they'd be running on their knees.