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Relating a little to your orevious thread about sci-fi vs. marines

Which do you think would win in a fight between Captain Worlak and Uncle Dercius?
   
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I…..I have no idea who those folk are?

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You probably do remember captain worlak. He’s in the Compendium. There’s a semi lengthy story about him riding a jet bike while his regiment assaults a fortress held by a rogue regiment from the same planet as his regiment, and at the end of the story some of his jump assault squads have captured the enemy leader and they have an honor duel where the only weapon is one knife thrown between them in the center of the ring of vorgarn troops.

In my mind it’s the definitive article about imperial guard / army. WD 109. I think it’s also the one that talks about guard being recruited wholesale from existing gangs or tribes and then trained in holds of transport ships.

And General Dercius is technically from 1999 in a BL novel. That’s more middlehammer, but he’s the closest equivalent because he’s the other big example of two regiments having a vendetta against each other and it involves the most detailed scene in 40k of two humans trying to have a duel with chainswords.

So, captain worlak has a flying motorcycle, jump pack assault squads, ritual dueling scars, and a tribal honor code. Uncle Dercius is a rich aristocrat with multiple regiments, a history of betraying his close friends, and no morals at all.
   
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 tauist wrote:
Fictional wrote:
WRT to Penal Legions and Human Bombs, page 148 of the Compendium gives the info. So probably was in WD too at some point.

Penal Legions are criminals conscripted to the Guard, fitted with explosive control collars, think Running Man.

Human Bombs are Penal troopers who seek redemption and volunteer to have explosives strapped to them, knowing they will be running into the enemy and exploding.


I don't understand why GW dropped them tbh. 40K is full of atrocities worse than some kamikaze troopers acting against their will.


If you had seen the gak-storm in a tea cup they had in Infinity about the suicide-bomb type guys (who weren't actually even suicide bombers, they just detonated electrical charges from themselves) then this might not have been a bad move by GW!

I keep forgetting about the human bombs but remember thinking how 'wrong' they were as an idea even back in the early 90s, let alone now !

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The human bombs were more kamikaze though. I always thought the 'advert' model even looked vaguely Japanese, the way it was painted. At the least it wasn't your usual Caucasian skin tone of the time. Even had a little bandana.

Of course, at the time I don't think suicide bombers were really thought of in the west. It's been too long to accurately remember but at most I think there might have been mentions of the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. I don't even recall many mentions of it happening during the eternal-seeming grind of the Iran-Iraq war, though obviously I was even younger when that was NEVER off the Nine O Clock news.
   
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I suspect it was either seen as inflamatory or offensive towards those nations, or peoples from said nations, that had a strong tendancy to blow things up using humans.

The unfortunate associational stereotype.
   
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Nah. Human Bombs didn’t make it out of Rogue Trader, which is well before such things really hit the public consciousness by nearly a decade.

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Here's one for you Doc, if you have the Ork books handy. I'm currently putting together some of the RT era Stormboyz models and I'm going to paint them up as Khorne. I've got the Drillboss with the horned helmet and he'll get a suitable back-banner.

Could you give me any fluff you find on them please? I think I remember an army list entry in Freebooterz but not sure if they appear anywhere else. Ta

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Specifically Stormboyz of Khorne? There are also Ork Chaos Warbands and Ork Mutant Mobs.

Most Stormboyz eventually grow out of their obsession with marching about, dressing in uniforms and other militaristic behaviour. However, a few individuals find it hard to give up the old ways, watching their mates drift away or die, awhile the new Stormboy recruits of come to regard them as cranky old-timers.

Some become Stormboy Kaptins and continue to lead Stormboy Mobz in combat, but others are drawn into one of the Freebooter bands which worship the Blood God Khorne.

Worship of the Chaos Powers is not tolerated amongst sane and sensible Orks. But the cult is rampant among freebooter stormboyz. The Blood God epitomises the martial virtues which they hold dear, including a harsh disciplinary code, binding rules governing their conduct as honourable warriors and of course, a life of almost continuous blood letting.

Stormboyz of Khorne are good hand-to-hand fighters and easily find employment. Their strange sense of honour permits them to fight with equal vigour on behalf of human chaos champions and other chaos forces, as well as for Ork warlords.

Khorne Stormboyz who survive long enough may be rewarded with gifts or attributes of which they are very proud. Once committed to the Blood God the Orks know they can never return to normal Ork society. They are destined to fall on some far flung field, their blood and bleaching bones a sacrifice to Khorne. You only have to look at the face of any idol of Khorne to see how that Power thrives on worship and sacrifice of Orks such as these

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 12:30:34


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 PaddyMick wrote:
Here's one for you Doc, if you have the Ork books handy. I'm currently putting together some of the RT era Stormboyz models and I'm going to paint them up as Khorne. I've got the Drillboss with the horned helmet and he'll get a suitable back-banner.

Could you give me any fluff you find on them please? I think I remember an army list entry in Freebooterz but not sure if they appear anywhere else. Ta


Wait, Drillboss? There was an Ork boss who used a Drill as a weapon? That sounds like the library of Alexandria for Ork Kulture.
   
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Cheers Doc

For some reason I imagined them just kinda pretending to worship the dark powers, like teenage goths, while the other orks look on in amusement, and then growing out of it, like normal stormboyz.

Sounds like they ain't gonna fit in to my Blood Axe warband too well, which gives me a decision on modelling. I've got twenty so could split them and save some for a freebooter/chaos ork warband project later own the line. They do look good with chaos marine bolt pistols and chainswords.

@red hobbit
Drill Boss as in Drill Sergeant

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My painting and modeling blog:

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Aw shucks got my hopes up
   
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Can you give any insight on what the old lore says about the whole "Orks believe it, so it's true!" meme that gets repeated over and over with little credible evidence? There are multiple stories/examples that get claimed as supporting the idea every time the topic is discussed, yet it seems no one ever has a source for them or can provide a quote or even knows where they are meant to be from. One of the more common ones I've seen has been a story of an Ork Trukk running out of a fuel but they boss says they still have fuel so it works because they think there's some, for example. I'm wondering if things like that all just made up fan memes that get taken as truth regardless or they're actually something that was said the very old lore. It's a topic where most of the current lore quotes for it I've seen given as evidence end up being either something that doesn't really support it, or their support for it is ambiguous at best and can go either way, yet it still gets stated as if it's some sort of fact without much thought being put into whether that's really the case or not.

So was the idea of their "belief" changing stuff (as in, specifically stated to be that as the cause) somewhat more of a thing back then?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/11 21:53:53


 
   
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Well, it’s not from Rogue Trader, and I can’t remember when it was first mentioned.

However, it is reiterated in the very latest Ork Codex. Specifically, it explains technologists of other species often find that recovered Orky tek simply shouldn’t work.

Nor is violence the only way in which the power of the Waaagh! manifests. It has been suggested that Ork technology works only because the Greenskins themselves believe it should. This seems ludicrous, yet is is an observable fact that no other race can make Ork technology work as intended


Now it doesn’t go into much detail beyond that, leaving a lot of room for interpretation.

Given it again confirms that Meks just sort of build stuff. Rarely blueprints, only occasionally a plan. But they always produce something workable - even if what it does isn’t apparent until it’s switched on.

Now, that has to be compared to them taking orders for Kustom Shootas etc. There, the Mek absolutely knows and intentionally builds a Kustom Shoota. But what makes it Kustom? Pull the trigger to find out!

We also know Orks have a superior ability to build teleportation tech, and a near incomparable knowledge of force field and tractor tech.

So that leaves us with two extremes of possibility, and various permutations in between.

1. Orky tech has no basis in known mechanics. Perhaps a Shoota’s trigger isn’t doing anything. Perhaps a Slugga has no firing pin. But examination shows the weapon was fired at some point (vid capture, barrel heating etc).

2. Orky tech is simply beyond the comprehension of the other races.

Both could be entirely true. Either could be entirely wrong. It could depend entirely on who’s examining it, and what they’re examining. This is further muddied by now two Orky constructions being identical.

Trukks for example? Relatively standardised, but never made to a blue print. It’s possible for a Mel to build one which functions as we might expect. But his next one may not have the cam shaft actually linked to the wheels. Yet both will go.

But there is credible evidence for both into the modern age.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 22:33:32


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When were the original legion colour schemes defined? Were the 18 legions finalised late in the RT era before the launch of 2nd ed?

I can remember in 2nd edition when I was I collecting Chaos I picked up the Ahriman model, and had no idea what colour Thousands Sons were supposed to be. I have a vague recollection of pouring through the 2nd ed Codex to find their colour scheme but being unable to find it. I remember plenty of pictures of the other legions, but I'm convinced there was nothing for Thousand Sons.
   
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Aash wrote:
When were the original legion colour schemes defined? Were the 18 legions finalised late in the RT era before the launch of 2nd ed?

I can remember in 2nd edition when I was I collecting Chaos I picked up the Ahriman model, and had no idea what colour Thousands Sons were supposed to be. I have a vague recollection of pouring through the 2nd ed Codex to find their colour scheme but being unable to find it. I remember plenty of pictures of the other legions, but I'm convinced there was nothing for Thousand Sons.


i dont think they were all worked out together. theirs a full colour spread of various space marine chapters in the early RT stuff, which has some of the 1st founding legions (plus a load of later foundings, but that distinction didnt exist when the art was drawn), but not all 9 loyalists, i dont think. most of them have kept their basic colour schemes form that time, with a few changes. only very obvious changes are Dark Angels are still in black, not green, and space wolves are dull grey (not the almost blue-grey they moved to)

i dont know when they went firm on all 18 legions and their colours, but it was probably not until 2nd edition. the Hersey and associated fluff didn't exist until after Adeptus Titanicus was brought out, which i believe was the back end of rogue trader era. I know by the time they were pumping out the 2nd ed codecii all that lore had gone firm.

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Well, the original Legions weren’t defined in terms of heraldry until Visions of Heresy came about - and I’m pretty sure that predates the Heresy novel series.

The 40K colour schemes will likely date back to RT, as most if not all the Traitor Chapters (as they were then) get a mention across the two Realm of Chaos books.

However, given Night Lords were Khornate alongside World Eaters, quite a bit changed between those and 2nd Ed. Indeed, it wasn’t until the 3.5 Chaos Codex we got proper, distinctive forces for the traitors.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, the original Legions weren’t defined in terms of heraldry until Visions of Heresy came about - and I’m pretty sure that predates the Heresy novel series.

Wasn't Visions a collection of art from the HH CCG?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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It was indeed!

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I forgot that!

But either way, the art contained within was the first to properly codify Crusade era Legion heraldry.

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