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^I liked 8th quite a bit, overall. Riiight up until SM 2.0, just prior to which I felt it had decent balance and was in a good spot. In fact I felt the SM 2.0 book itself was good, and would have been in a solid place. Those supplements though. . . Just wrecked it.

Since then too many changes for 9th have been . . . Not good. Which is too bad, I had high hopes when they started saying they were reintroducing real LOS blocking terrain in the form of Obscuring, along with some other terrain and cover diversity.

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6th started the metagame issues, but 5th started the gameplay issues. The doing away of LOS blocking terrain coupled with the start of the shooting arms race of dumb overgunned models and kill-oriented scenarios that together practically pushed the movement phase into irrelevancy

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Deadnight wrote:
moreorless wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
I disagree with the notion that the 'downward spiral' was some recent phenomenon that can be pinpointed to a specific moment in time. Or that the 40k ecosystem of games and media is somehow 'worse now than it was then. It'll differ for everyone.

Plenty folks would have said that for third too and I've seen enough posts from people saying they've had more fun with 8th ed 40k than they've had in years to simply assume we are living in 'lesser days' now.


I do tend to think a big issue has been the rise of the more competitive side of the game which has come to dominate most discussion on the net and is always more likely to expose weakensses in the rules.


I dunno. That side of it has always been there and I don't think it's any 'worse'. It's not a recent phenomenon at all. I remember portent (pre warseer) back twenty odd years ago and the same chats being centred around the competitive game, rules exploits and list building for advantage dominated then,as now.
Back then gw leaked like a siv. You'd know everything in a codex three to six months before release- all the broken builds would be mathed out even before the codex hit the shelves. Fun times!
.


I mean its been there to some degree but to me it seems to have become totally dominant in more recent years, the idea of playing the game without using maximum exploits for whatever faction your using doesnt even seem to be considered anymore in most online discussion.
   
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moreorless wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
moreorless wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
I disagree with the notion that the 'downward spiral' was some recent phenomenon that can be pinpointed to a specific moment in time. Or that the 40k ecosystem of games and media is somehow 'worse now than it was then. It'll differ for everyone.

Plenty folks would have said that for third too and I've seen enough posts from people saying they've had more fun with 8th ed 40k than they've had in years to simply assume we are living in 'lesser days' now.


I do tend to think a big issue has been the rise of the more competitive side of the game which has come to dominate most discussion on the net and is always more likely to expose weakensses in the rules.


I dunno. That side of it has always been there and I don't think it's any 'worse'. It's not a recent phenomenon at all. I remember portent (pre warseer) back twenty odd years ago and the same chats being centred around the competitive game, rules exploits and list building for advantage dominated then,as now.
Back then gw leaked like a siv. You'd know everything in a codex three to six months before release- all the broken builds would be mathed out even before the codex hit the shelves. Fun times!
.


I mean its been there to some degree but to me it seems to have become totally dominant in more recent years, the idea of playing the game without using maximum exploits for whatever faction your using doesnt even seem to be considered anymore in most online discussion.
IMO; 40k is really popular in the US, so US toxicompetitive culture bleeds in.

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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...IMO; 40k is really popular in the US, so US toxicompetitive culture bleeds in.


I don't know if it's Americans in general, or if it's very specifically the toxicompetitive culture of all the ex-Warmachine players that marinated in the crucible of Page Five and only ever having to talk to people who were as competitive as they were, and then when PP nerfed all their competitive Bane-spam/Haley/whatever lists in Mk.3 (the same summer of the 8e launch) they all decided it was time to go back to 40k and piss on someone else's parade.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...IMO; 40k is really popular in the US, so US toxicompetitive culture bleeds in.


I don't know if it's Americans in general, or if it's very specifically the toxicompetitive culture of all the ex-Warmachine players that marinated in the crucible of Page Five and only ever having to talk to people who were as competitive as they were, and then when PP nerfed all their competitive Bane-spam/Haley/whatever lists in Mk.3 (the same summer of the 8e launch) they all decided it was time to go back to 40k and piss on someone else's parade.


So now we're pretending 40k was a blissful paradice of gentlemanly sportsmanship until those filthy Warmachine players turned up? 40k has had Those Guys in the community forever, dont even try to say otherwise. I play with a guy who was a GW manager 30 years ago tell me stories about Those Guys.


 
   
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 Sim-Life wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...IMO; 40k is really popular in the US, so US toxicompetitive culture bleeds in.


I don't know if it's Americans in general, or if it's very specifically the toxicompetitive culture of all the ex-Warmachine players that marinated in the crucible of Page Five and only ever having to talk to people who were as competitive as they were, and then when PP nerfed all their competitive Bane-spam/Haley/whatever lists in Mk.3 (the same summer of the 8e launch) they all decided it was time to go back to 40k and piss on someone else's parade.


So now we're pretending 40k was a blissful paradice of gentlemanly sportsmanship until those filthy Warmachine players turned up? 40k has had Those Guys in the community forever, dont even try to say otherwise. I play with a guy who was a GW manager 30 years ago tell me stories about Those Guys.


I think Warmachine, for all its strengths, concentrated a lot of That Guy energy in one small place where it could feed on itself and was rewarded, and when Mk.3 happened and they all went back over to 40k they took those attitudes with them. 40k has had degenerate, toxic, competitive people for time out of mind, yes, definitely. That said if you thought you noticed a downward shift about five years ago that wasn't a figment of your imagination; I think the return of people from the degenerate, toxic, competitive echo chamber that was Mk.2 Warmachine did have a broader effect on 40k.

Though it's really nice being one of the few people who still plays Warmachine; the obnoxious people all got angry that their specific tournament lists didn't work any more and left, and it's much more relaxed now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 22:24:22


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NE Ohio, USA

Karol wrote:
10 years is "first few years" only when you are like 40 or something.


Well, maybe if I were an Elf or something ....
But speaking from experience as a 40-or-something Human though? No, it's not. It's just a long time ago.

   
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I am 15. if someone tells someone my age, that maybe in a span of 10 years, my army will maybe be good for 3 months, the entice to play drops substentially. And makes picking armies which aren't on the mid to good tier for most of the time a foolish option. Sadly people on forums and the sellers at the store tell you to buy what you like. And I think the player retention w40k has shows it very well.

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Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

When 8th first dropped, I quite liked it.
I didn't like some aspects like LoS/terrain, blasts, and other rules, but those were all workable.
I actually liked strategems at the start of 8th. Back then you only had the single reroll, auto pass morale, and interupt the fight phase. It felt like that little sprinkle of seasoning you could use to nudge the game or mitigate the randomness of those few high-impact dice rolls.

But as the codexes came out, boy was I proved wrong. This is when the bloat started off. In hindsight, it wasn't even that bad.
Strategems in particular became a mess. There's just way too much to handle (I basically discarded all by my favourite 5), and they became so powerful the right "gotcha" could decide the game there and then.
Then we get to Space Marines 2.0 and it's clear they're just throwing more and more garbage on the fire as it balloons into an absolute mess.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 06:47:27


 
   
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washington state USA

@Wolflord

There is a reason why i started the active and rather expansive thread on older editions.

The basic premise is that for general rules/USRs 5th had almost everything correct, but certain rules from other compatible editions would have worked better in the framework of 5th.

That's why my group, Rakes and Mezmorkis prohammer project tries to unify the best rules into 5th edition.

When it comes to superheavies and flyers that i see many people complain about- FW actually had very balanced rules for normal 40K play for those units, but also included the "opponents consent/heads up" consideration.

They were not game breaking

On the subject of flyers. the move onto the table in your opponents movement phase was kinda of distracting to game flow so what 6th/7th did right was put them into the normal movement phase. what they did wrong was increase the armor across the board because they started out these "flyers" and fast skimmers in 5th where the light armor would not encourage people to buy them. valkyries were the same AV as a land speeder (10/10/10) in fact almost everything was including superheavies. like the marauders (bomber or destroyer) except for "specialized units" like the thunderhawk that was AV 12/12/10 or the vulture that was AV 11/10/10.

What they also did wrong was remove the ability of jump units to assault flyers and put in the stupid vector lock rule where as normal immobilized results caused a flyer to auto crash. so they were very hard to hit without dedicated AA units (that FW also sold, thats how the skyray started life) but were very fragile.

When it came to titans it was much the same. a warhound had a base cost and then you had to buy the weapons separately pushing the points cost upwards of 800. but there was no such thing as "D/destroyer or macro" weapons as examples a twin turbo laser was a heavy 2 3" small blast S9 AP2 (a las cannon blast template) with a 72" range VS X2 5" templates with "D" at 96" and a vulcan mega bolter was a heavy 10 assault cannon with rending with a 36" range. the titans also could only move 6" if they wanted to fire all the guns or 12" if they wanted to fire 1

It was very much a centerpiece model, it was a bit hard to kill but also didn't push out to much damage as it was also BS marine (4)

lord_blackfang wrote:6th started the metagame issues, but 5th started the gameplay issues. The doing away of LOS blocking terrain coupled with the start of the shooting arms race of dumb overgunned models and kill-oriented scenarios that together practically pushed the movement phase into irrelevancy



Funny thing is that 5th was the last thing that Andy Chambers set the groundwork before he left the game design studio. interestingly when he made the rules for dust he brought back the LOS blocking area terrain but conformed it to the 4" standard blocks for that game instead of the 6" for 40K when determining how far into area terrain you could see in/out

Karol wrote:I am 15. if someone tells someone my age, that maybe in a span of 10 years, my army will maybe be good for 3 months, the entice to play drops substentially. And makes picking armies which aren't on the mid to good tier for most of the time a foolish option. Sadly people on forums and the sellers at the store tell you to buy what you like. And I think the player retention w40k has shows it very well.


From what i have read of your experiences it saddens me you are stuck where you are, if you played with our group your GKs could use whichever codex you liked for 5th and still be viable, fun to play and not ever be forced to chase the meta. my preference is still the 3rd ed demon hunter codex as it has the best feel for what the GKs should be. .


Small edit @Wolflored

6th ed was the death of 40K in my area. it quite literally killed the game at the FLGS, the only saving grace for 7th was the release of the mechanicus and a few great new models for each faction

So i agree that's where the downhill started to pick up speed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 07:08:07




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I am trying to think more general. I mean if someone is lets say 14. starts at the mid or end of 8th. And now they have a year of 9th. I think there is a good chance they would quit, no matter where they play. Some armies are just not fun to play. They sometimes can make tournament lists, like lets say CWE or Chaos soups, but if you want to play a csm army with actual csm in it, then you better really like csm of the nurgle kind wearing termintor suits.

But GW is making money, so I guess the way they do things works well enough.


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AnomanderRake wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...IMO; 40k is really popular in the US, so US toxicompetitive culture bleeds in.


I don't know if it's Americans in general, or if it's very specifically the toxicompetitive culture of all the ex-Warmachine players that marinated in the crucible of Page Five and only ever having to talk to people who were as competitive as they were, and then when PP nerfed all their competitive Bane-spam/Haley/whatever lists in Mk.3 (the same summer of the 8e launch) they all decided it was time to go back to 40k and piss on someone else's parade.


So now we're pretending 40k was a blissful paradice of gentlemanly sportsmanship until those filthy Warmachine players turned up? 40k has had Those Guys in the community forever, dont even try to say otherwise. I play with a guy who was a GW manager 30 years ago tell me stories about Those Guys.


I think Warmachine, for all its strengths, concentrated a lot of That Guy energy in one small place where it could feed on itself and was rewarded, and when Mk.3 happened and they all went back over to 40k they took those attitudes with them. 40k has had degenerate, toxic, competitive people for time out of mind, yes, definitely. That said if you thought you noticed a downward shift about five years ago that wasn't a figment of your imagination; I think the return of people from the degenerate, toxic, competitive echo chamber that was Mk.2 Warmachine did have a broader effect on 40k.



I think.youre on to something in some ways. I do remember anecdotes back in the day of folks loving the fact that all the competitives had migrated over to wmh leaving them to enjoy their 40k so there is that.

But A lot of those guys who came to wmh 'because it was a competitive game' came from 40k in the first place, in fairness. Wmh did really well from around 2010 to maybe 2015, or 2016. That's the tail end of 5th, 6th and maybe a bit of 7th. 8th and onwards was 2017. In fairness, a lot of people came back for 8th, and a lot of people enjoyed 8th, so again, i don't think 'downward spiral' is entirely fair here but my perspective on 8th era is less centred around rules and Competitive play and more around casual play, spec games and painting.

That said, I do remember when aos came about, with all the auras etc I referred to it lovingly as 'homeopathic warmachine' and gw have since taken to the 'spend a resource' mechanic and 'led by named characters' approach in their other games that arguably warmachine broke a lot of ground with. I think though this largely reflects a shift in game design philosophy across the industry (they all feed off of each other) rather than 'those filthy wmh'ers coming back. Could this 'change' be what people are referring to, rather than 'downward spiral', as lets face it, game design is different now than it was 20 years ago.

This also doesn't account for people leaving entirely or new people joining (and in fairness, wmh has problems with the latter, and has done so for years).

This does imply though that before the wmh exodus in the early '10s, (so 5th ed and before...) those tfgs were in the 40k ecosystem, during what is regarded by this thread as before the 'downward spiral' and that they were out of the 40k ecosystem during 6th and 7th,which a lot of people seem to regard poorly and at least here, regarded it as 40k as its worst. For me, I loved wmh during that era. It was, imo it's strongest era. Looking back, it was colossals that were a turning point for me and that was around 2014/15 I think.

It's an interesting perspective anomander. There is some truth to it, I think. Thanks!

ccs wrote:
Karol wrote:
10 years is "first few years" only when you are like 40 or something.


Well, maybe if I were an Elf or something ....
But speaking from experience as a 40-or-something Human though? No, it's not. It's just a long time ago.



While I've got loads of models and some socks that are older than karol here, in some ways he's not wrong.

Ten years in wargaming terms, or even corporate terns weirdly isn't that long though in some frames of references.

People still talk about finecast etc ot some other gw failure or trot out a twenty year old quote from the studio like it was yesterday. I often catch myself thinking about specific things and realising 'hang on, that was ten/twenty years ago!'

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 07:57:40


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Bremen (Germany)

So many doomsayers. I liked 6th and 7th editon. Had my best games then.
I started with 4th edition.


And don't talk about Warmachine. This abomination of a game and its disciples ruined our FLGS with their attitude. Now this shop is magic and boardgames only. I hate Warmachine and its players like Sister of battle hates a heretic.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...IMO; 40k is really popular in the US, so US toxicompetitive culture bleeds in.


I don't know if it's Americans in general, or if it's very specifically the toxicompetitive culture of all the ex-Warmachine players that marinated in the crucible of Page Five and only ever having to talk to people who were as competitive as they were, and then when PP nerfed all their competitive Bane-spam/Haley/whatever lists in Mk.3 (the same summer of the 8e launch) they all decided it was time to go back to 40k and piss on someone else's parade.


So now we're pretending 40k was a blissful paradice of gentlemanly sportsmanship until those filthy Warmachine players turned up? 40k has had Those Guys in the community forever, dont even try to say otherwise. I play with a guy who was a GW manager 30 years ago tell me stories about Those Guys.


I think Warmachine, for all its strengths, concentrated a lot of That Guy energy in one small place where it could feed on itself and was rewarded, and when Mk.3 happened and they all went back over to 40k they took those attitudes with them. 40k has had degenerate, toxic, competitive people for time out of mind, yes, definitely. That said if you thought you noticed a downward shift about five years ago that wasn't a figment of your imagination; I think the return of people from the degenerate, toxic, competitive echo chamber that was Mk.2 Warmachine did have a broader effect on 40k.

Though it's really nice being one of the few people who still plays Warmachine; the obnoxious people all got angry that their specific tournament lists didn't work any more and left, and it's much more relaxed now.


Gotta agree with this. There has been a certain paradigm shift in 40k, one that is now egged on by GW themselves with their things like the Metawatch articles etc. This was not the case 5 or so years ago and certainly not 10+ years ago. Sure, GW had tournaments; but the game was never, ever built for them- it was a kickabout with your mates type of game, yet the tourney crowd were kept contained and anyone who tried to powergame was self-policed to an extent by communities and shunned as "that guy".

This is what was the (original) main appeal of WMH was and the (correct) message of Page 5- they were the counterculture to GW. No more pulling of punches, give it your all etc. But we all know where this went, as an obvious piece of satire (in the same call to arms they say they're going to deplete the world of metal by 2010 and run that reinvented wheel (that is now covered in spikes) over your nan's house) it went over a lot of people's heads and we all know how that went. But I digress...

WMH had the strength of its rules behind it. GW didn't (and still doesn't). One of the greatest joys for me in WMH was taking units that the community had considered "trash" and doing well with them, because it broke their collective brains trying to work out how you did it. I remember the time when one of the top players won the annual tournament at Lock & Load with a Khador list with Assault Kommandos and the community collectively broke trying to comprehend how something they had deemed as something destined for the bin to have won the biggest tournament of the year.
But that there was representative of the strength of WMHs rules, you could do stuff like that as the depth of the rules allowed you to.

Where am I going with this? So, 8th drops and Mk3 buggers itself up, resulting in a mass exodus from WMH simultaneously with a bunch of ex-40k players and holdouts coming back to 8th. A lot of the former (and I'd maybe argue not just them, there's also the culture of MMO games like Fortnite, LOL etc. that has infected 40k as well. You can see it in the nomenclature certain players use) bring the attitude of the previous game with them, which is fine in a culture that supports it and a game that has strong rules to back it up. GW has never ever had either of those things, but now they are attempting to court them for whatever reason. "Metawatch". Oh please, feth the feth off with that...



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washington state USA

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
So many doomsayers. I liked 6th and 7th editon. Had my best games then.
I started with 4th edition.


And don't talk about Warmachine. This abomination of a game and its disciples ruined our FLGS with their attitude. Now this shop is magic and boardgames only. I hate Warmachine and its players like Sister of battle hates a heretic.


I have seen those toxic players myself, which is why our WMH group is a totally casual group who play the models we like without concern for theme or tier lists. core rules wise MKIII is the best edition the game has ever been, but of course the page 5 rule is gone so all the "hardcore" comp gamers hate it.



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 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't think there's any edition of 40k that doesn't have massive, glaring failures. As tabletop wargames, they're all pretty bad taken on just their rules, they're not anything anyone would play or really develop these days without GW's IP behind it, same way most RPG's these days look little like D&D and its painfully mechanistic paradigm.

Each edition has had major problems both with core rules and codexes, as well as power and scale bloat. For my own part, and not having played 9th, I think late 3rd/early 4th was among the best for flavor and expression of lore in the rules, 5th was probably all around the best "tournament" edition (in terms of reasonable army sizes, limited rules to memorize, broad if imperfect meta balance, etc), with mid 2019 pre-SM supplement 8th probably being the best overall balanced in a faction meta sense.


I think that they key is probably buried in this answer here.What it inherently boils down to is what you liked best about the game. Different editions emphasisted different things.

3rd edition was probably the most flavorful and had the best written lore in a 'modern' format. If army building choice and new fluff, and general interesting units/campaigns in a vaguely sensible context were your thing? It wins and was the best. Everything from the Eye of Terror campaign with the Lost and the Damned on down to the first Daemonhunters codex. It was where Warhammer broke out from the patchwork clunkiness of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition to become the first well developed edition in the sense of the setting. And it did it well. Sure, the rules were a bit confusing at times, and nothing was streamlined for balance, but it felt like great fun and extremely original.

If you liked a balanced and simplified game to play with your friends, where most codexes had a chance of winning equally and you could throw any combination of units on the table and have a decent chance? Early 5th was the closest to that. It didn't quite reach that lofty goal (no-one was running a Hellion army), but it came closest. It had some irritating core rulebook issues, but before Grey Knights and Space Wolves hit the field, the best thing that could be thrown down as a power unit was a Lash Prince. Which whilst challenging was hardly OP in the way that 6th/7th edition IG/Eldar spam was. It gave probably the smoothest and simplest playing experience.

If you want the full experience of the weirder/whackier aspects of the lore deployed on the battlefield, with psykers and super-heavies and flyers and bat gak crazy stuff? And you like having so many plastic choices and ease of access? This edition is probably the best yet. They've spent some time streamlining 7th/8th edition because all those were clunky as hell and arrived here at 9th. It's still not perfect, but it's worked out enough kinks now that the game isn't a hot mess. Sure, the rules are everywhere, the fluff is almost copy paste Mary suedom, and you have to keep your hand in or completely lose what's going on. But if you do that, you've never had so much choice!

If, on the other hand, you wanted a taster of the options/zaniness of 9th but without all the multiple rules changes and full on titan incorporation? You'll prefer 6th. That was the primary crossing point between 5th and 9th that worked best. Psykers? You got 'em. More terrain? Sure. More allies? Why not. More missions. Got you. 6th was the crossing point between 5th and everything that came later. It suffered from horrendous codex creep, but in terms of choices? It was the closest to the current edition whilst still retaining the feel and style of the older editions.

Few people ever say '4th/7th/8th' was my favourite though. That's because virtually everything those editions did was done better elsewhere.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 10:18:03



 
   
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Pious Warrior Priest




UK

Age of Sigmar is a glimpse into what a streamlined 40k could look like, with 3rd edition it's becoming quite refined without adding much extra rules bloat (some extra basic actions for monsters and heroes). Codex creep hasn't been much of a thing, it can be played casually or competitively with a lot of variety, it has a bit of a buff-stacking meta going on, but one that at least makes sense and allows you to make a powerful army that looks cohesive.

I'd recommend a switch of system for anyone really frustrated with 40k, which to me looks like it needs a 3rd edition style rework, too much has been added, the elements of the game not represented physically by miniatures (stratagems, command points, formations etc.) take away from what should be the focus of a wargame.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 10:47:01


 
   
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moreorless wrote:


I mean its been there to some degree but to me it seems to have become totally dominant in more recent years, the idea of playing the game without using maximum exploits for whatever faction your using doesnt even seem to be considered anymore in most online discussion.


honestly, i think thats partly due to the demographics of online discussion, in that this it tends to appeal more to the more "serious", competitive players, not the "beer and pretzels" crowd (or "cola and crisps" crowd if your underage). I am sure that compared to the average model buying customer, the average dakkanaut is somewhat older, more invested (mentally and financially) in the game, and more willing and able to play at a "high level" rather than just paint what looks cool and throw it on the table, and their attitude to the game and discussion of the game reflects that. Not ALL of us, obviously, but I'd bet real money our demographics are skewed compared to the GW "baseline". So, the online discussion (as it normally is) gets dominated by a passionate minority that is strongly invested, while the less invested majority just go out and play, not really bothering the online world too much.



That, and if you in a tactics thread and someone asks "what is the best approach for X?", naturally the other posters are going to respond with the thier best meta-chasing answers and explain why they should do Y because thats the best approach to X, or that X just isn't that competitive, and that if they do that, it would be sub-optimal compared to doing the same thing with Z instead.. thats....why the question was asked in the first place. Becuase they wanted to play better, to better understand the game and improve their playing ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 10:49:16


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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scarletsquig wrote:
Age of Sigmar is a glimpse into what a streamlined 40k could look like, with 3rd edition it's becoming quite refined without adding much extra rules bloat (some extra basic actions for monsters and heroes). Codex creep hasn't been much of a thing, it can be played casually or competitively with a lot of variety, it has a bit of a buff-stacking meta going on, but one that at least makes sense and allows you to make a powerful army that looks cohesive.

I'd recommend a switch of system for anyone really frustrated with 40k, which to me looks like it needs a 3rd edition style rework, too much has been added, the elements of the game not represented physically by miniatures (stratagems, command points, formations etc.) take away from what should be the focus of a wargame.



I agree switch systems by switching OFF GW entirely.

Want some classic warhammer fantasy battles? play kings of war or mantic in general since they have their versions of everything GW does at half the price-warpath(40K), deadzone(kill teams), aramda(dread fleet) dreadball(blood bowl)
Want some epic 40K? or battlefleet gothic? loads of 3rd party minis/support are available
Want some WWII? flames of war or bolt action has you set up
Want to play around in the Star Wars universe? you have legion, X-win and armada
Want some weird war II with better written rules by the former lead of the GW game development team and great minis? play DUST 1947
Want some non-40K 6mm gameplay? try classic battletech it has just as much if not more lore than 40K , a huge line of minis and a solid low model count rules set thats been stable for 30+ years
Need some cyberpunk in your life? play some infinity.

There is a great big world of great miniature games out there not made by GW.



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The problem is that stores often only run GW games, or even just w40k and maybe some AoS. Meaning you can't just switch systems, because no one at the store can play them.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
^I liked 8th quite a bit, overall. Riiight up until SM 2.0, just prior to which I felt it had decent balance and was in a good spot. In fact I felt the SM 2.0 book itself was good, and would have been in a solid place. Those supplements though. . . Just wrecked it.

Since then too many changes for 9th have been . . . Not good. Which is too bad, I had high hopes when they started saying they were reintroducing real LOS blocking terrain in the form of Obscuring, along with some other terrain and cover diversity.


I think people's experience with 8th varied widely with what missions you used and whether or not you played ITC as well as what style you preferred.

9th is really uniform in experience, but lots of people still haven't played that much and it shows. Also, the Maelstrom rules haven't been talked about beyond maybe the first week we saw them.

   
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I think people expiriance in 8th mostly depended on what army they had and played through out 8th. Someone not playing marines can say that 8th when bad with 2.0 marines, on the other hand someone who get to "enjoy" playing Iron Hands pre 2.0, will say that the game only became fun when 2.0 dropped.

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Karol wrote:
I think people expiriance in 8th mostly depended on what army they had and played through out 8th. Someone not playing marines can say that 8th when bad with 2.0 marines, on the other hand someone who get to "enjoy" playing Iron Hands pre 2.0, will say that the game only became fun when 2.0 dropped.

That's how all editions of the game work....
This isn't a new concept. If you support Poland in the World Cup but the team gets knocked out at the group stages you would say it wasn't fun to watch, whereas if I support Scotland and they win I would say it was fun.
   
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 Gert wrote:
Karol wrote:
I think people expiriance in 8th mostly depended on what army they had and played through out 8th. Someone not playing marines can say that 8th when bad with 2.0 marines, on the other hand someone who get to "enjoy" playing Iron Hands pre 2.0, will say that the game only became fun when 2.0 dropped.

That's how all editions of the game work....
This isn't a new concept. If you support Poland in the World Cup but the team gets knocked out at the group stages you would say it wasn't fun to watch, whereas if I support Scotland and they win I would say it was fun.


How much money did you have to pay to buy the Polish team? How much time did you spend painting them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
The problem is that stores often only run GW games, or even just w40k and maybe some AoS. Meaning you can't just switch systems, because no one at the store can play them.


Chicken/egg. You can't play something different because nobody plays it. If you did, someone would play it, and then other people could switch systems. It takes perseverance, and some people are never going to change because for whatever reason they like 40k, but if you're not in a GW store where playing other games isn't allowed I think it's still worth the effort to try.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 16:12:33


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^I liked 8th quite a bit, overall. Riiight up until SM 2.0, just prior to which I felt it had decent balance and was in a good spot. In fact I felt the SM 2.0 book itself was good, and would have been in a solid place. Those supplements though. . . Just wrecked it.

Since then too many changes for 9th have been . . . Not good. Which is too bad, I had high hopes when they started saying they were reintroducing real LOS blocking terrain in the form of Obscuring, along with some other terrain and cover diversity.


I think people's experience with 8th varied widely with what missions you used and whether or not you played ITC as well as what style you preferred.

9th is really uniform in experience, but lots of people still haven't played that much and it shows. Also, the Maelstrom rules haven't been talked about beyond maybe the first week we saw them.
I could care less about the missions. Most of what I dislike isn't mission related. Lasguns and Bolters being equally effective against Orks. 2w rolled out for Loyalists but forcing CSM to wait for it. 2w loyalists to begin with. Smaller standard table size. Smoke Launchers moved to a Stratagem. Necron Warriors dropping even further below SMs in resilience. Etc.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...IMO; 40k is really popular in the US, so US toxicompetitive culture bleeds in.


I don't know if it's Americans in general, or if it's very specifically the toxicompetitive culture of all the ex-Warmachine players that marinated in the crucible of Page Five and only ever having to talk to people who were as competitive as they were, and then when PP nerfed all their competitive Bane-spam/Haley/whatever lists in Mk.3 (the same summer of the 8e launch) they all decided it was time to go back to 40k and piss on someone else's parade.


I mean to be fair I don't want to play holier than thou, 40K being competitive is a large part of the attraction but I think its much less broken and indeed much more varied as a game is thats not all there is. I mean I love obsessing over detailed rules looking to maxmise my armies effectiveness as much as the next guy but the start point generally tends to me that I want to play with certain units that I think are cool and making those units as effective as possible is were the fun is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 16:40:21


 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:


How much money did you have to pay to buy the Polish team? How much time did you spend painting them?

How much do you know about hooligan culture in eastern europe, because it is a rather long topic. Often you get born in to being a fan of specific teams and players. It is really a serious business. You can get in to real trouble if you decide to wear the wrong colour of scarf durning winter. There is a reason why place like Cracow are called the City of Knives.



Chicken/egg. You can't play something different because nobody plays it. If you did, someone would play it, and then other people could switch systems. It takes perseverance, and some people are never going to change because for whatever reason they like 40k, but if you're not in a GW store where playing other games isn't allowed I think it's still worth the effort to try.

Nah, it is not the people it is the store owners. They have a limited number of tables at stores, and they support games they sells. Maybe if you are friends with the owner you can intreduce something new to the store. But that kind of a thing, involves you being 30+ and knowing the owner your whole life. Then yes, you can get something like Infinity running at the store. If your 13-15 and come up to the store owners and tell him that you would like to play a store unsupported game with models you bought outside of the store, you will get a no or if you are really annoying , you may be shown the door. Plus if you struggle to afford w40k, investing in to a different, non store played system, may end up with you buying stuff and no one following. Specially if you have no friends. May as well burn the money, same effect less hassle with painting etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:

That's how all editions of the game work....
This isn't a new concept. If you support Poland in the World Cup but the team gets knocked out at the group stages you would say it wasn't fun to watch, whereas if I support Scotland and they win I would say it was fun.


Well that is true, no one tells you that when you start. Just as no one tells you stuff like, you picked csm do you know they have been unfun to play with for the last 3-4 editions? Although with that I am not that suprised. If I wanted to get rid of models clogging my shelfs or which are stuck at my home, I could imagine someone being willing to do anything to sell them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 17:02:46


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
Well that is true, no one tells you that when you start. Just as no one tells you stuff like, you picked csm do you know they have been unfun to play with for the last 3-4 editions? Although with that I am not that suprised. If I wanted to get rid of models clogging my shelfs or which are stuck at my home, I could imagine someone being willing to do anything to sell them.

Considering a person who buys Warhammer models has the chance of never playing a game in their life, telling someone what is and isn't "good" in the current meta isn't required.
If the person asks then sure but otherwise the seller has no idea what the person intends to do with their purchase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 17:50:13


 
   
 
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