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Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Columbus, Ohio

So, hear me out... While I'm a huge 40k fan, my best times playing the game were in the 3rd through 5th editions of the game. I'd still gladly go back and play any of those today. Here's why I think the downward spiral started in 6th edition and why I think they're desperately trying to recover still from it.

The 5th edition of Warhammer 40k came out in 2008 and lasted 4 years which was the average cycle for GW games at the time. The game was completely backwards compatible with codex books from the previous edition. 5th edition wasn't perfect by any stretch of imagination. People didn't like the 4++ cover save from ruins, the wound allocation rule where if you gave members in the same unit a piece of different wargear you could allocate wounds to them separately, and so on. However, the game was pretty well streamlined in that everyone had to follow the Standard Force Org chart for list building, there were only 3 phases of the game, and soup-armies made up from units of different codex books wasn't even a problem yet.

Then came 6th edition... 6th edition came out in 2012 and lasted only 2 years which is really nothing more than GW admitting they made a huge mistake with the game. 6th edition brought a TON of rules changes that have had me scratching my head ever since. Rick Priestly, the father of 40k, gave an interview around this time after he had been away from Games Workshop and moved on to Warlord Games and during it he stated that back in the older days of GW the company was very careful not to let the sales team have influence over the rules design team. He went on to say that once the sales team had their way it would end any sort of perceived balance that existed within the game. I bring this up, because if you look at the changes that 6th edition introduced, most of them were elements of the game that were reserved for Apocalypse games and integrated
into regular 40k games to push further sales of those Apoc models. Before 6th edition, you didn't have entire armies of knights or superheavy tanks in a game of 40k. You didn't have strength D weapons in a regular game of 40k. You also didn't have un-killable flyers (newly introduced) or a cumbersome psychic phase. 6th edition introduced fortifications into regular games of 40k, where now players could buy certain terrain pieces to add to part of their army. As 6th edition went on, a lot of players (myself included) found that we enjoyed the game a lot less than in previous editions.

Then just 2 years later, we got 7th edition and sadly, it doubled down on most of the elements previously released in 6th. With 7th edition we got formations which really pushed the soup lists to the point of insanity. As most will remember, the formation rules gave in-game bonuses to players who brought the units listed in the formation. Really this was a genius sales tactic, but totally unbalanced. Basically, if you didn't like 6th edition, chances are you hated 7th. The downward spiral continued...

Now that the barn doors were open and all the animals were loose, GW tried their best to wrangle them back in by hitting the reset button on 40k and releasing 8th edition in 2017. After the push to open the flood gates of allies, knights, and superheavies of the 2 previous editions, you might have wondered what GW would do next? Well, how about introducing Primaris marines! Which, I'll admit the models do look beautiful. In 8th edition they scrapped the templates, Armor Values, scatter dice, and the To Hit and To Wound charts. In their place you've now had to learn how Stratagems and Command Points work. Stratagems basically took the place Formations from 7th edition where you got bonuses based on different units you brought in your army, so while it was sold to us as a big reset, essentially it was the same game just with more rules. My biggest pet peeve with 8th edition is that while it only lasted 3 years, I had to basically buy 5 codex books to play my Imperial Fists. I started with the Imperial Index I, and followed that up 10 minutes later with the Space Marine Codex. About a 18 months after that was released, GW sold us an updated Space Marine codex and then a supplemental codex. Then a short while later came the Psychic Awakening books. What a waste...

That now leads us to last November and the 9th edition of 40k was released with a shiny new 40k logo and soon after another new Space Marine codex! Command Points for Stratagems are still the thing to harvest, but in a different twist you're now awarded them for bringing solo codex armies. I will give 9th edition credit that I like it more than 8th in that regard. However, when you think that GW released 4 different editions of the game in an 8 year span (2012-2020) it's hard not to think that their only consistency is inconsistency and the constant push to sell you a new Space Marine codex along with separate books every year to tell you the points of your units (Which was the whole purpose of selling you a codex in the first place going back to 2nd edition.)

So, I digress... If you enjoy the latest edition, then that's awesome. Just don't get too used to it, because we're probably only 18 months away from another one.




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I may be marked a heretic and purged for this, but I'd argue the downward spiral started in 5th (right after Priestly & Co. left). Loss of options, statline bloat, the push to sell powerful new big models over fixing the stuff that existed, the push to make named characters better than generic characters, and the push to make new Space Marines over half of all releases all started in 5th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 19:10:25


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
I may be marked a heretic and purged for this, but I'd argue the downward spiral started in 5th (right after Priestly & Co. left). Loss of options, statline bloat, the push to sell powerful new big models over fixing the stuff that existed, the push to make named characters better than generic characters, and the push to make new Space Marines over half of all releases all started in 5th.


except options where lost in 4th.


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On moon miranda.

6E was definitely a change, in both pace and philosophy. Personally I find the 6E/7E era to be the worst period of 40k's history, in its incarnation as a tabletop wargame, but the churn of the current era is real.

The big problem to me is that the increase in pace hasnt so much removed the problem of outdated or forgotten factions, its just added more stuff in general to keep track of.

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5th edition made obvious fixes to 4th edition (vehicles and missions), but than made a lot of unforced errors, particularly in the 4+ cover and wound allocations. 5th edition also introduced killpoints, which was a gut punch for a lot of armies.

Still, what killed 5th edition wasn't the core rules, but the codexes, which dramatically increased the power level. The 123 sequence of IG, Wolves, and Grey Knights turned the game over, and made playing other armies very tough.

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Yeah 5th edition had that mid-point where the new codexes started getting ridiculous. It was a good edition up until then.
   
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Yeah, and there are certain worrying parallels there with 9th. At least now they do sorta fix their mistakes, but you can still do a lot of damage by releasing untested, overpowered junk books whether you fix them a few months down the road or not, especially if you do it repeatedly.
   
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I heartily agree, and think your piece is quite well written to boot!

I think that, at this point, it would probably be best if the community as a whole took up the ball that GW dropped, and implemented some form of "unified old-hammer" that was simplified, streamlined, and allowed you to use the models you already had with very barebones statlines and special rules.

That may be a bit of a pie-in-the-sky type thinking, but I know I have gotten absolutely frikkin sick of buying codex after codex just to line GW's pockets.

I think that, barring some kind of movement like this, with people just flat out not supporting the new rules ect, we are just going to keep up this same trend.
   
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It all started with the the 3E wipe....

It never ends well 
   
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5th is about where certain hollistic design integrities started to erode.


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leerm02 wrote:
I heartily agree, and think your piece is quite well written to boot!

I think that, at this point, it would probably be best if the community as a whole took up the ball that GW dropped, and implemented some form of "unified old-hammer" that was simplified, streamlined, and allowed you to use the models you already had with very barebones statlines and special rules.

That may be a bit of a pie-in-the-sky type thinking, but I know I have gotten absolutely frikkin sick of buying codex after codex just to line GW's pockets.

I think that, barring some kind of movement like this, with people just flat out not supporting the new rules ect, we are just going to keep up this same trend.


I'd be down for that, where do I sign up? Anything that helps make Kroot playable. In all seriousness, I would be totally down to help out if someone took the lead on this. There's a big community here, I'm sure with enough dedicated people, we could get a lot of playtesting done. There are plenty of youtubers in the community to spread the word once it's finished. Make a big enough noise and GW won't be able to not hear us.

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 Stormonu wrote:
It all started with the the 3E wipe....


Heh. There's an argument to be made there although for slightly different reasons.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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 Tawnis wrote:
leerm02 wrote:
I heartily agree, and think your piece is quite well written to boot!

I think that, at this point, it would probably be best if the community as a whole took up the ball that GW dropped, and implemented some form of "unified old-hammer" that was simplified, streamlined, and allowed you to use the models you already had with very barebones statlines and special rules.

That may be a bit of a pie-in-the-sky type thinking, but I know I have gotten absolutely frikkin sick of buying codex after codex just to line GW's pockets.

I think that, barring some kind of movement like this, with people just flat out not supporting the new rules ect, we are just going to keep up this same trend.


I'd be down for that, where do I sign up? Anything that helps make Kroot playable. In all seriousness, I would be totally down to help out if someone took the lead on this. There's a big community here, I'm sure with enough dedicated people, we could get a lot of playtesting done. There are plenty of youtubers in the community to spread the word once it's finished. Make a big enough noise and GW won't be able to not hear us.


There's the miniatures-agnostic but 40k-compatible One Page Rules: Grimdark Future, which is Diet 40K, free of charge, and that I have found to be far more playable and generally more enjoyable than 9th edition 40K. If that doesn't qualify, and it might not, there's a setup for 5th Ed Oldhammer that its codifier is calling Prohammer over on Proposed Rules, but I've yet to personally try it and it will require digging up old codexes from somewhere.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
I may be marked a heretic and purged for this, but I'd argue the downward spiral started in 5th (right after Priestly & Co. left). Loss of options, statline bloat, the push to sell powerful new big models over fixing the stuff that existed, the push to make named characters better than generic characters, and the push to make new Space Marines over half of all releases all started in 5th.


I agree that 5th had some core issues (all editions have), but I think it was still superior to 4th. Most noticeably because it made more units and styles functional, while also removing some of the most broken gak in the game (skimmers being immune to CC). I also believe that making Named Characters actually usable was a good thing, even if it's gone incredibly far overboard by this point.

 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
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Is there some sort of doomsaying competition going on?

If you're going to claim that 40k is in a downward spiral, you better be claiming that that spiral started the edition after Rogue Trader. *cough* 3rd edition Lash Princes *cough*

Because from where I'm sitting, the history of 40k has been twenty to thirty years of people playing 40k, then trying to fix 40k, and every time claiming to have succeeded. And only some of those people were doing so by making games produces by other companies.


   
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The dark behind the eyes.

I would agree that 40k's downward spiral started in 6th.

5th wasn't without issues but 6th and 7th dumped truckloads of garbage onto the game. Compared to other miniature games, 40k's rules were already convoluted and wobbly (look at the sheer volume of rules 40k has, and all for a system that still ended up being far shallower than other games), and so the last thing they needed was to also have to account for fliers, super-heavies etc..

These things are nigh-impossible to balance because you either make them near-identical to normal vehicles (in which case the people playing them aren't happy because, for example, fliers feel barely different to skimmers), or else you make them more "realistic" (in which case they're boring as hell to play against and allow for ridiculous skew lists "What's that? Your Dark Eldar army didn't bring an entire battery of IG Hydras? Too bad - enjoy being roasted by my Helldrakes which you have no reasonable chance of killing, no matter what you throw at them."). And that's without even getting into the joys of 7th's psychic phase, D-weapons or Formations.


What's more, whilst 8th removed some of the more troublesome elements, it then just went ahead and replaced them with different troublesome elements. Every army now has entire stacks of special rules even for basic grunts, supplemented by a game of Yugioh. "Not so fast! You activated my trap card -er- I mean, my Stratagem!". Wargear and customisation is all but gone, but not to worry because every HQ, regardless of function or faction, now has the same dull, stupid, interactionless auras. Yey for diversity and customisation.


To be clear, I'm not saying that pre-6th was perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Just that I think the core framework of the game would have been far better to build around than anything from 6th onwards.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


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Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 vipoid wrote:
and so the last thing they needed was to also have to account for fliers, super-heavies etc..

These things are nigh-impossible to balance because you either make them near-identical to normal vehicles (in which case the people playing them aren't happy because, for example, fliers feel barely different to skimmers), or else you make them more "realistic" (in which case they're boring as hell to play against and allow for ridiculous skew lists "What's that? Your Dark Eldar army didn't bring an entire battery of IG Hydras? Too bad - enjoy being roasted by my Helldrakes which you have no reasonable chance of killing, no matter what you throw at them."). And that's without even getting into the joys of 7th's psychic phase, D-weapons or Formations.


You're explicitly describing 5th Ed, though. I remember Valkyrie spam being incredibly oppressive.

   
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 catbarf wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
and so the last thing they needed was to also have to account for fliers, super-heavies etc..

These things are nigh-impossible to balance because you either make them near-identical to normal vehicles (in which case the people playing them aren't happy because, for example, fliers feel barely different to skimmers), or else you make them more "realistic" (in which case they're boring as hell to play against and allow for ridiculous skew lists "What's that? Your Dark Eldar army didn't bring an entire battery of IG Hydras? Too bad - enjoy being roasted by my Helldrakes which you have no reasonable chance of killing, no matter what you throw at them."). And that's without even getting into the joys of 7th's psychic phase, D-weapons or Formations.


You're explicitly describing 5th Ed, though. I remember Valkyrie spam being incredibly oppressive.


I fail to see how an AV12 skimmer is anywhere near as bad as the same AV12 skimmer that can only be hit on 6s by all but a handful of weapons in the game, and which is also immune to melee as well.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 solkan wrote:
Is there some sort of doomsaying competition going on?

If you're going to claim that 40k is in a downward spiral, you better be claiming that that spiral started the edition after Rogue Trader. *cough* 3rd edition Lash Princes *cough*

Because from where I'm sitting, the history of 40k has been twenty to thirty years of people playing 40k, then trying to fix 40k, and every time claiming to have succeeded. And only some of those people were doing so by making games produces by other companies.

Lash Princes were a 4th edition issue.
   
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^5th really. Lash-Prince Chaos book came out in the last few months on 4th. Most (years) of 4th ed was Chaos 3.5.

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I have fond memories of 5th edition. I do think with a few tweaks it could have been the best edition ever.

For the Guard codex, some things just needed some points adjustments. Chimeras (as well as most factions dedicated transports at the time) needed a points increase. Conscripts should have been separate from the Infantry Platoon like they are now (maybe with a slight points increase for the additional flexibility and no Infantry Platoon tax).

The other thing I would have liked with Guard is the doctrine elements from the 3.5 codex meshed into the 5th edition one. To actually allow all those Guardsmen to be more customised. Then just tweak some of the more powerful doctrines with higher point costs and reducing or removing point costs from the weaker ones. IE: Warrior Weapons should have been free.
   
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Yeah, I can see it. I stopped playing in 6th, not right at the start but about a year in because it just wasn't as much fun anymore. 8th really did seem to reverse the trend, up until that marines codex.

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 vipoid wrote:
...These things are nigh-impossible to balance because you either make them near-identical to normal vehicles (in which case the people playing them aren't happy because, for example, fliers feel barely different to skimmers), or else you make them more "realistic" (in which case they're boring as hell to play against and allow for ridiculous skew lists "What's that? Your Dark Eldar army didn't bring an entire battery of IG Hydras? Too bad - enjoy being roasted by my Helldrakes which you have no reasonable chance of killing, no matter what you throw at them."). And that's without even getting into the joys of 7th's psychic phase, D-weapons or Formations...


Flyers are absolutely possible to balance reasonably. The Valkyrie under the 4e FW flyer rules was 175pts for 11/11/10 and otherwise pretty much the same loadout/stats as the 6e incarnation, and was completely fine. The 100pt 12/12/10 Valkyrie as a flyer in 6th was silly.

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 Wolflord Patrick wrote:
So, hear me out... While I'm a huge 40k fan, my best times playing the game were in the 3rd through 5th editions of the game. I'd still gladly go back and play any of those today. Here's why I think the downward spiral started in 6th edition and why I think they're desperately trying to recover still from it.



Take off the rose tints Patrick.

The downward spiral began right after they decided to do a warhammer game, but in spaaaace back in thr 80s.

Everyone's 'best times' was when they started and the first couple of years in the hobby, whenever that was. and the ideal was just before then. There'll be folks who say 6th and 7th were the best, and folks that'll say 2nd. For me, I joined in 3rd, 4th was the edition I was most familiar with and to my mates who I played with, 2nd was the best to them, and everything since then was a disappointment.

The game back then was just as broken and frustrating as now, just in a different way.

And for all the doom regarding the doom spiral, the models have never been better, there have never been more ways of playing anf enjoying gw games, and *glances at share prices*, gw are doing well.

Edit: better phrases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 07:53:43


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Deadnight wrote:
...Everyone's 'best times' was right when they started and the ideal was just before then...


You know you're talking to someone who starting in 3rd and thinks 5th was the golden spot, right?

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
...Everyone's 'best times' was right when they started and the ideal was just before then...


You know you're talking to someone who starting in 3rd and thinks 5th was the golden spot, right?


Hey, hey, same here! Started in 3rd and felt 5th was the best. Sure there were flaws, but that could have been fixed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 07:33:28


 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
...Everyone's 'best times' was right when they started and the ideal was just before then...


You know you're talking to someone who starting in 3rd and thinks 5th was the golden spot, right?


Im old, OK. And it's early. And I've not had my coffee.

'Right when they started' can cover more than just a moment in time, but fair enough, it's not the best turn of phrase. I'll go back and edit.

Flr what it's worth, I started I 3rd, and 4th was the best for me. And still maintain folks talked about the downward spiral of the game since before then too.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
...Everyone's 'best times' was right when they started and the ideal was just before then...


You know you're talking to someone who starting in 3rd and thinks 5th was the golden spot, right?


Nah, let him wheel out the cliches to tell someone why they are wrong for thinking older editions are superior...

I'm in more or less the same boat as the OP. Started in late 2nd, but didn't really hit my stride until 3rd. 5th was peak 40k then they went and gak the bed with 6th and 7th.



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Deadnight wrote:

Everyone's 'best times' was right when they started and the ideal was just before then.


Having started in the closing days of RT I'm going to disagree with that.
There was nothing "before" 40k wise.
RT is definitely not my favorite edition nor does it include any of my "best times".

I'd prefer the 3rd - 5th era with some of 8th/9th.
   
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Stormonu wrote:It all started with the the 3E wipe....


A wipe taking everything back to the Big Black Rulebook of 3rd, with all the armies in the book, the simple rules, the neat pages of lore and art, heck it even had a battle report in the rule book... man that'd be perfect.
A codexs when they did come out, that were 15 bucks, paperback, fit easily into a case, and actually had more CONTENT then the hardback books now. Had not only deeper unit options, but also had pages on tactics and how to use the army.

Wolflord Patrick wrote:So, hear me out... While I'm a huge 40k fan, my best times playing the game were in the 3rd through 5th editions of the game. I'd still gladly go back and play any of those today. Here's why I think the downward spiral started in 6th edition and why I think they're desperately trying to recover still from it.

The 5th edition of Warhammer 40k came out in 2008 and lasted 4 years which was the average cycle for GW games at the time. The game was completely backwards compatible with codex books from the previous edition. 5th edition wasn't perfect by any stretch of imagination. People didn't like the 4++ cover save from ruins, the wound allocation rule where if you gave members in the same unit a piece of different wargear you could allocate wounds to them separately, and so on. However, the game was pretty well streamlined in that everyone had to follow the Standard Force Org chart for list building, there were only 3 phases of the game, and soup-armies made up from units of different codex books wasn't even a problem yet.

Then came 6th edition... 6th edition came out in 2012 and lasted only 2 years which is really nothing more than GW admitting they made a huge mistake with the game. 6th edition brought a TON of rules changes that have had me scratching my head ever since. Rick Priestly, the father of 40k, gave an interview around this time after he had been away from Games Workshop and moved on to Warlord Games and during it he stated that back in the older days of GW the company was very careful not to let the sales team have influence over the rules design team. He went on to say that once the sales team had their way it would end any sort of perceived balance that existed within the game. I bring this up, because if you look at the changes that 6th edition introduced, most of them were elements of the game that were reserved for Apocalypse games and integrated
into regular 40k games to push further sales of those Apoc models. Before 6th edition, you didn't have entire armies of knights or superheavy tanks in a game of 40k. You didn't have strength D weapons in a regular game of 40k. You also didn't have un-killable flyers (newly introduced) or a cumbersome psychic phase. 6th edition introduced fortifications into regular games of 40k, where now players could buy certain terrain pieces to add to part of their army. As 6th edition went on, a lot of players (myself included) found that we enjoyed the game a lot less than in previous editions.

Then just 2 years later, we got 7th edition and sadly, it doubled down on most of the elements previously released in 6th. With 7th edition we got formations which really pushed the soup lists to the point of insanity. As most will remember, the formation rules gave in-game bonuses to players who brought the units listed in the formation. Really this was a genius sales tactic, but totally unbalanced. Basically, if you didn't like 6th edition, chances are you hated 7th. The downward spiral continued...

Now that the barn doors were open and all the animals were loose, GW tried their best to wrangle them back in by hitting the reset button on 40k and releasing 8th edition in 2017. After the push to open the flood gates of allies, knights, and superheavies of the 2 previous editions, you might have wondered what GW would do next? Well, how about introducing Primaris marines! Which, I'll admit the models do look beautiful. In 8th edition they scrapped the templates, Armor Values, scatter dice, and the To Hit and To Wound charts. In their place you've now had to learn how Stratagems and Command Points work. Stratagems basically took the place Formations from 7th edition where you got bonuses based on different units you brought in your army, so while it was sold to us as a big reset, essentially it was the same game just with more rules. My biggest pet peeve with 8th edition is that while it only lasted 3 years, I had to basically buy 5 codex books to play my Imperial Fists. I started with the Imperial Index I, and followed that up 10 minutes later with the Space Marine Codex. About a 18 months after that was released, GW sold us an updated Space Marine codex and then a supplemental codex. Then a short while later came the Psychic Awakening books. What a waste...

That now leads us to last November and the 9th edition of 40k was released with a shiny new 40k logo and soon after another new Space Marine codex! Command Points for Stratagems are still the thing to harvest, but in a different twist you're now awarded them for bringing solo codex armies. I will give 9th edition credit that I like it more than 8th in that regard. However, when you think that GW released 4 different editions of the game in an 8 year span (2012-2020) it's hard not to think that their only consistency is inconsistency and the constant push to sell you a new Space Marine codex along with separate books every year to tell you the points of your units (Which was the whole purpose of selling you a codex in the first place going back to 2nd edition.)

So, I digress... If you enjoy the latest edition, then that's awesome. Just don't get too used to it, because we're probably only 18 months away from another one.


Said everything I could, with less curse words and fury. I 100% agree with this. Formations, Buy a building, Allies, Flyers (which should have just been folded under skimmers), titan armies, detachments, command points, strategems, etc. All played a part in killing the game for me. I never thought I'd truly miss the Standard Force Organization chart. But I do. It's miles above and beyond a better system than the gobbly [see forum posting rules] junk that detachments are now.

Also miss simple things like templates, and armor values/armor facing and vehicle damage charts.

Formations may of worked though, if people had to have their units in an actual... you know formation. Instead it was often a random drag and drop of units that didn't even mesh together. An actual formation, made of multiple units, with a 'formation' coherency, and movement a al Warhammer Fantasy would have made the game tactical and interesting. But no, it was just 'scoop and dump these models on the table and win' formula.

Oh! And moral checks that made sense! Pass and all's good. Fail and it's 'Run Away!' Now it's some extra wound bs.

Insectum7 wrote:^5th really. Lash-Prince Chaos book came out in the last few months on 4th. Most (years) of 4th ed was Chaos 3.5.


Chaos 3.5 codex was the best codex GW ever wrote. Easy to use, deep as the ocean in army building options, the defiler wasn't even a MODEL yet. Troll magazine had a feature on how to make your own, cause it was was a GIFT to hobbyists to make their own cool thing for their army. Perfect book.

Deadnight wrote:
The game back then was just as broken and frustrating as now, just in a different way.

And for all the doom regarding the doom spiral, the models have never been better, there have never been more ways of playing anf enjoying gw games, and *glances at share prices*, gw are doing well.


Not really. 3rd was perfect. 4th had some things I didn't like but it was still good. (3rd had sweeping advance, 'catch and kill' units failing moral checks, and charging out of vehicles. Seriously these need to come back.) 5th was meh, but I still loved the lore and the game was still more for the hobby, and not Pay 2 Win esports with miniatures that it is now.

And yeah the models LOOK better, but there's less options to build them out, not as conversion friendly as GW is trying to KILL conversions at every chance, there was as many ways to enjoy GW games in 2000-2004 as there is today. Cause yeah you got Kill Team, and Necromunda and Blood Bowl, but back in the day you HAD THAT AND there was also healthy support for Warmaster, Battle Fleet Gothic, Epic 40K (the only place a knight titan army should be.), Gorkamorka, and Inquisitor.

And yeah, their share prices are up. So are EA's, and GW is the tabletop equivalent of EA. They saw what the predatory Triple A video game industry has been doing, and they set out to mimic it much as they could for little plastic soldiers.

My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba
Order of Saint Pan Thera


DR:80S+++G+M+B++IPw40K(3)00-D++A+++/cWD233R---T(M)DM+ 
   
 
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