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Made in jp
Been Around the Block






 Formosa wrote:


I will keep saying it, this is a liberal space, not a socialist one, this is not sigmarxism where you can crush any disenting view by lying and calling us Nazis, this is not Reddit where your echo chamber is promoted and rewarded, if you cannot handle that Dakka has a blanket ban on Nazism and politics, but not what you people label as a Nazi, then leave, set up a new site, invite like minded people and police it with an iron fist as you are want to do, but you won't, because this site is fairly popular and that is why you want to control this space.

.


i am probably foolish for even wading into this topic and i might be misunderstanding your intent as different nations and cultures have different terminologies, but are you saying that if you dont have a liberal view point you arent welcome here? that conservatives, moderates or even those that dont care about politics arent welcome at dakka? that doesnt seem to be inclusive or tolerant in the least.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Peterhausenn wrote:
 Formosa wrote:


I will keep saying it, this is a liberal space, not a socialist one, this is not sigmarxism where you can crush any disenting view by lying and calling us Nazis, this is not Reddit where your echo chamber is promoted and rewarded, if you cannot handle that Dakka has a blanket ban on Nazism and politics, but not what you people label as a Nazi, then leave, set up a new site, invite like minded people and police it with an iron fist as you are want to do, but you won't, because this site is fairly popular and that is why you want to control this space.

.


i am probably foolish for even wading into this topic and i might be misunderstanding your intent as different nations and cultures have different terminologies, but are you saying that if you dont have a liberal view point you arent welcome here? that conservatives, moderates or even those that dont care about politics arent welcome at dakka? that doesnt seem to be inclusive or tolerant in the least.


Liberalism in the UK basically means all perspectives are to be considered on their own merits and if any break the social contract of non violent actions (actions being the key point), so if a space is liberal it means that all can be here, with key exceptions being those who would commit acts of violence on others to get their ideological views front and centre, this is completely different from the American version which has become a synonym for socialism for some stupid reason and is not the same as continental liberalism which is top down rule, rights come from the state as opposed to being representatives of the people borrowing their power, bottom up rule, rights are inalienable and intrinsic to the person (English liberalism), this is the antithesis of the personal is political neo socialist view (all human interaction is political and should be judged as such)

TLDR/ English liberalism is everyone can choose to participate or not on their own terms with their own views so long as they are not committing acts of violence, live and let live, you leave me alone and I leave you alone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 09:52:28


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





I think now "liberal" is more commonly used in the modern US sense than any traditional English sense. A few of your posts I read and wondered WTH you were talking about when you said "liberal" because it's rare to see it used with that connotation these days.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 10:00:04


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Well in Europe "liberal" is a positive term, even conservatives and right wing people don't use it to refer to the rivals. Conservative and liberal aren't opposites here, it's perfectly fine being conservative and liberal and in fact most of the conservatives are actually liberal and have no problem identifying themselves as such.

In the US, and maybe in some other anglosaxon countries, it's widely used as dispregiative though, we know that.

 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

An obvious issue here is that there are two points of discussion that get conflated in every single one of these threads.

First is the nominal: Some users here believe that there are Dakka members with far-right or even fascist sympathies which have been graciously ignored by the moderators. While I'm very clearly anti-Nazi (I was the one who regrettably brought up the BTs in the Spanish Nazi thread), I still feel the need to mention that it's generally next to impossible to tell who does or does not have these political leanings, especially when online. Nowadays, a lot of conservatives genuinely believe that the far left is out to get them, or that there is in fact a group of antifa goons which want them publicly lynched for supporting right-wing politicians. However, those same talking points are also used as smokescreens by actual Nazis, to the extent that they often outright admit to doing so. It may sound insane to some people here that there are groups of non-fascist internet users who live in fear of being either metaphorically or literally bludgeoned by the far left, but it's true, and some of them probably use this site. As Insaniak mentioned, it's difficult to tell which group is which, and without exception I do not fault the moderators for not taking action on these lines. To repeat: Currently, there is (to my knowledge) not a single user on Dakkadakka who has displayed enough fascist/white supremacist/etc. sympathies to warrant any sort of banning.

However, the second issue is a lot more cut-and-dry: Rule 1 violations. There are a few users on Dakka currently who —regardless of their political beliefs— regularly derail threads, intentionally agitate other users, and act in a fashion which is altogether incompatible with intelligent discussion. For reasons beyond my ken, these users have somehow not been banned, and continue to ruin perfectly constructive conversations to their hearts' content. Of course, for reasons which are best left to the sociologists, the users who most regularly exhibit this behavior also hold strong right-wing beliefs, but acknowledging this fact in and of itself serves to muddle the greater point that these people regularly break Dakka's Rule 1 and get away with it scot-free. Part of the problem is that whenever these users are held to task, they seem to hold their arms behind their backs like a child who knocked over their mother's vase and cry about their horrific mistreatment, which of course is no doubt politically motivated and the fault of the horrific Radical Left. This, of course, is false, as there are plenty of conservative users on this site who don't act like easily-amused preteens at any given opportunity. To reiterate, this issue is entirely separate from any political discourse, no matter what certain people may have you believe, and should in my humble opinion be treated thusly.

Of course, the other facet of this problem is that there are a number of people on Dakka who insist on feeding the trolls at every single opportunity. For the sake of my own mental health, please remember: If you believe someone is arguing in bad faith, the best thing to do is not argue with them. It only exacerbates the situation. Just ignore them, and move on with your lives. Do it for me, if nothing else.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

All I can say is that at present this whole element seems to be only on Dakka of the hobby groups I'm on. Only Dakka seems to be having a core issue (granted I don't step into 4Chan or Reddit). This suggests to me that this is a community issue and action of a few Dakka users in particular - most likely striking off each other - rather than something endemic in the modern wargaming scene at large. At least online


Other social groups seem able to operate without this continual political hotbed erupting; and without insane draconian moderation. Then again Dakka did allow political debate at one stage and now it does not; it might just be that for some Dakka became a political debate community for them alongside their wargaming. It's not about gaining a certain type of user but a certain attitude of users when they are present on Dakka.



Heck look at this thread and the last one, both veered off topic super fast and shifted from simply debating the "point" of the opening post into debating hotly with the subject of politics, political viewpoints, meaning of words and more. We've left behind moderation of the site and fast entered a back and forth of political debate.

Perhaps all that is required is swifter "stop that" and "back on subject" and "that subject is not allowed" moderation. Yes that is shutting it down, and by doing so moves that debate off-site or at least into private between interested parties. I don't think we can expect Dakka's moderation team to lead a one-forum crusade against political viewpoints and politics within the community; that's a community level thing that needs an entirely different approach.

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Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

insaniak wrote:

 posermcbogus wrote:
I think maybe, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, that it might be an idea for the mods to have a more in-depth review of what they think of this, especially given the hard stance GW has taken lately, and with regards to being able to better identify dog-whistle signpost-y crap, and make it clear that racist exterminationist extremism is not something to be tolerated here.

It's something that we've discussed behind the scenes before, and in light of the current conversations and general state of the world is certainly something that is worth more discussion. The problem that is being highlighted here though isn't just that Nazis should be kicked out, but that some posters feel that more should be done about people they perceive as Nazi-adjacent... which is much more difficult to police effectively and fairly.

The other issue raised in here was about threads being 'allowed' to wander off topic, and in an ideal world that would certainly be watched over more closely... But it relies on posters doing the right thing and not continuing to respond to off-topic tangents. However large and active the moderation team is, they can't be watching every thread in real time. Hot button topics in particular can move very quickly, and if by the time a moderator sees a report people have dog-piled on each other for four pages, unless it's a really worthwhile topic of conversation there's a very good chance we're just going to lock it rather than work through multiple pages of people acting out to figure out how much of it needs to be deleted or who was actually responsible for the whole mess. So if you (general forum 'you', not anyone specifically) want to improve the chances of 'agitators' being dealt with effectively, stop spending multiple pages screaming at them and then complaining that the thread was locked. Report the problem post and leave it for us to deal with it instead of responding to it.

Note that the above is not intended to dismiss anyone's concerns with certain behaviours or attitudes. I absolutely understand why some posters in particular feel very strongly about this topic, and how that informs their reaction to perceived issues. But you can't fix those issues by calling people names and participating in the derailment of threads.



This is a really well-worded, well thought out reply. Cheers very much for it, appreciate the time that you and the rest of the team have been spending on all of this stuff.
For what it's worth, I really dislike the title, and the premise of the first thread, because I think that it's broadly very unfair. That said, I don't disagree with the sentiment that nazis are unwelcome here, nor making it known that I am very hostile to them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 posermcbogus wrote:
Nazis are awful, and no one should put up with them trying to colonize their hobby space. IDK why this is so hard for some of you.


I tend to think the numbers of actual problematic Nazis are small, like, next to none, and the number of people who get labelled Nazis for simply disagreeing with a particular viewpoint is far greater. Ironically, it's become a way of dehumanising people by some.

I'm happy to say "Nazis are bad, lets not support Nazis", but I become cautious when we start talking about how we should deal with Nazis because of how easily someone can become labelled as one.

I think the smarter approach is to address behaviours and actions, rather than trying to address Nazis and then trying to figure out who is a Nazi.


Honestly, I agree with you on this. I think there are probably almost no nazis on dakka, but at the same time, I don't want them to ever feel like this could be an environment where they might be welcome. I understand that "nazi" is an insult that gets thrown around by certain people very freely, and I dislike that, because it really detracts from just how awful the actual nazis were, and trivializes the crimes they committed. It's not something I ever condone.
As much as it may feel dehumanizing for some to get called nazis, I think it also bears repeating that it's also dehumanizing to be a victim of racism, to have to try and stand and stake out space for yourself in an environment where any critical discussion of recent events quickly gets drowned out in moral grandstanding about how some users here really hate socialists, or the "woke" or antifa or civil rights activists.

That said, the dude with the sweatshirt was really putting himself out there, and I am glad to be part of the community who thinks that broadcasting support for exterminationist terrorists is not acceptable. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If it walks like a goose, and thinks that humanity is a sliding scale, it's probably a fascist.

For what it's worth, what my post was advocating for was not
instant-ban for anyone who gets accused of being a Nazi, but more
I feel like there has been a recent trend towards suspicious behaviors, people trying to signpost certain allegiances subtly, which concerns me, as the catalyst has been the Spanish Nazi guy. I hope the mods will think about this more.

Also feth me is it ever tiresome watching people try to derail this gak. We get it. You're comfortable with this garbage in your social spaces. Someone posted one of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's best writings on the poison of inaction in the face of prejudice, and you have your whole asses out with the "yes, but if we disregard the nazi guy in spain, and instead focus on my personal boogeymen..." act.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 11:09:23


 
   
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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Overread wrote:
Other social groups seem able to operate without this continual political hotbed erupting; and without insane draconian moderation.


Specifically what other social groups are you talking about? It seems pretty common for anonymous online groups these days to be easily derailed, but I'm not a member of many different groups these days.

Some car forums I found less tumultuous from a political standpoint, perhaps the member base is maybe less diverse, but it seems topics don't generally get dragged in a political direction to begin with. Though those folks sometimes treat the cars themselves as a religion, and I've been on several that aren't very pleasant, though for non-political reasons.

I don't really even find Dakka to be that tumultuous politically if you just avoid the obvious dumpster fire topics.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Other social groups seem able to operate without this continual political hotbed erupting; and without insane draconian moderation.


Specifically what other social groups are you talking about? It seems pretty common for anonymous online groups these days to be easily derailed, but I'm not a member of many different groups these days.


The line between de-railing a topic and a topic evolving/changing is a subtle line but its been happening for years and years. It's perhaps more noticed by some today on forums because the number of forum users is in general much smaller which makes for fewer overall threads. So topics are more easily focused on by a smaller group of people. As a result its much easier for people to start conducting more general interactions within threads; whilst with a bigger community that kind of action gets spreads out and watered down because more threads are active.

That said I wasn't meaning that other forums/groups don't have drifting subjects, that happens. I meant that the specific hotbed of political issues that seem to be a factor on Dakka isn't something I see happening as much/on other sites. It's not that it doesn't happen, but that Dakka seems to have more of it. It certainly spiked over the last 5 years on many sites (esp any site with an active American population). But in broad terms Dakka seems to be fairing worse. Again its one of the fewer that had politics allowed before that 5 year (or so) period and it seems harder to shake it off the site.

https://printhunter.org/
Check out the latest 3D print model releases!  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 insaniak wrote:
 Elemental wrote:

I've often been frustrated that the mods seem so reluctant to take on bad actors within their site, but this reaction--

I'm locking this thread for review. If someone wants to make a new thread with some direct feedback points (e.g. "locking threads only encourages disruption", "rules aren't enforced often enough", etc), and can do so in a clear and concise manner without going to derpsville, have at it, I'll check in periodically to police things. Keep it on topic and we'll hear you out on whatever you have to say, but leave the commentary and history lessons out or people will be getting time-outs.


--is at best, tone-deaf, with no recognition of the very real fear and anger behind the "heat" in the thread.

Then I'll make it clear here: We totally acknowledge that there is a very real fear and anger behind this discussion. However, we also realise that there is a huge polarisation in discussion these days (and not just online), where people just assume that if someone else's views don't align 100% with theirs, that they are an awful person. This can make navigating discussion on certain topics extremely problematic, and is what led to the politics ban in OT.

We most certainly don't want to encourage actual Nazis to hang out here. But we also don't want to create an echo chamber where people are afraid to share opinions because they fear being branded something they are not by those who disagree on that specific issue.





Yo dawg, Formosa is using actual nazi talking points to defend nazis. You really should do something about that.
trexmeyer wrote:
This is a forum for wargaming. Not politics. If you're looking for social revolution here then you are looking in the wrong place. You can't expect moderators to go full Minority Report and start preemptively banning people for what they might say or do.

No one is in the wrong for being upset about Nazis. You're not even in the wrong for wanting Nazis banned. That is reasonable. Those people are sick. Wanting someone banned for being the fan of some POS like Arch is a bridge too far. What is so difficult about that?



Most of us just don't want to deal with nazis in the community. The less welcome you make them anywhere, the less welcome they are everywhere.
 RaptorusRex wrote:
Yeah, I'm out. Have fun with this, DakkaDakka. I'm not going to associate with people who think I should be dead or people who think those people are "entitled to their opinion".

The "no politics" rules on forums like this serve only to bottle up the emotions and lets them fester. Sufficient Velocity does just fine.


SV has a strictly superior moderating culture, in part because its admin are lawyers really enamored with lawyering. Sadly, the staff here almost certainly doesn't have the same skillset.
 Formosa wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
Formosa, it is 10:43 at night here. So I'm tired, and I think you're acting childish. But what position of power do you have to dictate moderation? None. You can only suggest. Same as the rest of us.


What did he say that was childish? This is just some dumb cope threat from someone crying about the mods enforcing their policy.


w/e, man. I think that reading that post as a "threat" or "cope" shows you're determined to read something into it.

At the end of the day, I want a safer community. It's Formosa's right to spout ahistorical crap, but his right to swing his fist ends where it meets my face.



Everything I have said is rooted in historical fact, but inconvenient for certain ideological slanted people to hear, but feel free to PM me with citations proving my comments incorrect so you lot do not derail the thread.


You are no historian.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
Sufficient Velocity does just fine.
Go an express any non-left wing opinion at SV and see how far you get, but that's drifting way off topic, so I'll walk away from that...



I mean, maybe if the political opinions you express didn't involve stripping people's rights?
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 posermcbogus wrote:
Nazis are awful, and no one should put up with them trying to colonize their hobby space. IDK why this is so hard for some of you.


I tend to think the numbers of actual problematic Nazis are small, like, next to none, and the number of people who get labelled Nazis for simply disagreeing with a particular viewpoint is far greater. Ironically, it's become a way of dehumanising people by some.

I'm happy to say "Nazis are bad, lets not support Nazis", but I become cautious when we start talking about how we should deal with Nazis because of how easily someone can become labelled as one.

I think the smarter approach is to address behaviours and actions, rather than trying to address Nazis and then trying to figure out who is a Nazi.


You ever sit in a hobby shop and listen to a collection of jerkoffs crack jokes about a trap? I have. Know a guy and his friend group who uses gay as a slur all the time? I do.

Are these people nazis? Eh? Probably not (maybe one or two). Would they be absolutely okay if fascists took over and started oppressing people they hate? You betchya.
 Flipsiders wrote:
An obvious issue here is that there are two points of discussion that get conflated in every single one of these threads.

First is the nominal: Some users here believe that there are Dakka members with far-right or even fascist sympathies which have been graciously ignored by the moderators. While I'm very clearly anti-Nazi (I was the one who regrettably brought up the BTs in the Spanish Nazi thread), I still feel the need to mention that it's generally next to impossible to tell who does or does not have these political leanings, especially when online. Nowadays, a lot of conservatives genuinely believe that the far left is out to get them, or that there is in fact a group of antifa goons which want them publicly lynched for supporting right-wing politicians. However, those same talking points are also used as smokescreens by actual Nazis, to the extent that they often outright admit to doing so. It may sound insane to some people here that there are groups of non-fascist internet users who live in fear of being either metaphorically or literally bludgeoned by the far left, but it's true, and some of them probably use this site. As Insaniak mentioned, it's difficult to tell which group is which, and without exception I do not fault the moderators for not taking action on these lines. To repeat: Currently, there is (to my knowledge) not a single user on Dakkadakka who has displayed enough fascist/white supremacist/etc. sympathies to warrant any sort of banning.

However, the second issue is a lot more cut-and-dry: Rule 1 violations. There are a few users on Dakka currently who —regardless of their political beliefs— regularly derail threads, intentionally agitate other users, and act in a fashion which is altogether incompatible with intelligent discussion. For reasons beyond my ken, these users have somehow not been banned, and continue to ruin perfectly constructive conversations to their hearts' content. Of course, for reasons which are best left to the sociologists, the users who most regularly exhibit this behavior also hold strong right-wing beliefs, but acknowledging this fact in and of itself serves to muddle the greater point that these people regularly break Dakka's Rule 1 and get away with it scot-free. Part of the problem is that whenever these users are held to task, they seem to hold their arms behind their backs like a child who knocked over their mother's vase and cry about their horrific mistreatment, which of course is no doubt politically motivated and the fault of the horrific Radical Left. This, of course, is false, as there are plenty of conservative users on this site who don't act like easily-amused preteens at any given opportunity. To reiterate, this issue is entirely separate from any political discourse, no matter what certain people may have you believe, and should in my humble opinion be treated thusly.

Of course, the other facet of this problem is that there are a number of people on Dakka who insist on feeding the trolls at every single opportunity. For the sake of my own mental health, please remember: If you believe someone is arguing in bad faith, the best thing to do is not argue with them. It only exacerbates the situation. Just ignore them, and move on with your lives. Do it for me, if nothing else.


You are making the mistake that nazis are insincere and cynical in their beliefs here I think

A person who supports a fascist strongman taking over the state to protect them from the far left is still a fascist even if they really feel that fear. Indeed, getting people to feel that fear and truning them to fascist ideology is one of the key points of fascism. It's on Eco's list even.

 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that at present this whole element seems to be only on Dakka of the hobby groups I'm on. Only Dakka seems to be having a core issue (granted I don't step into 4Chan or Reddit). This suggests to me that this is a community issue and action of a few Dakka users in particular - most likely striking off each other - rather than something endemic in the modern wargaming scene at large. At least online


Other social groups seem able to operate without this continual political hotbed erupting; and without insane draconian moderation. Then again Dakka did allow political debate at one stage and now it does not; it might just be that for some Dakka became a political debate community for them alongside their wargaming. It's not about gaining a certain type of user but a certain attitude of users when they are present on Dakka.



Heck look at this thread and the last one, both veered off topic super fast and shifted from simply debating the "point" of the opening post into debating hotly with the subject of politics, political viewpoints, meaning of words and more. We've left behind moderation of the site and fast entered a back and forth of political debate.

Perhaps all that is required is swifter "stop that" and "back on subject" and "that subject is not allowed" moderation. Yes that is shutting it down, and by doing so moves that debate off-site or at least into private between interested parties. I don't think we can expect Dakka's moderation team to lead a one-forum crusade against political viewpoints and politics within the community; that's a community level thing that needs an entirely different approach.


That's a large number of right wing members of my local wargaming community.

Looking like a boring white guy I have been able to access their spaces and their online comminiques and, well, gak's vile. I mean, how do they even have that many monkey pictures on their computers?

 Flinty wrote:
It works both ways though. The mods can’t be everywhere, so if you’re concerned, hit the yellow triangle.


I mean the biggest of the problem posters hasn't been ejected yet.
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

stratigo wrote:

You are making the mistake that nazis are insincere and cynical in their beliefs here I think

A person who supports a fascist strongman taking over the state to protect them from the far left is still a fascist even if they really feel that fear. Indeed, getting people to feel that fear and truning them to fascist ideology is one of the key points of fascism. It's on Eco's list even.


This is certainly true, but it doesn't mean that all people who feel that fear are in favor of a fascist strongman. If A and C are both contained in B, that doesn't necessitate that A = C.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
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SpaceCoast

 Flipsiders wrote:
An obvious issue here is that there are two points of discussion that get conflated in every single one of these threads.


However, the second issue is a lot more cut-and-dry: Rule 1 violations. There are a few users on Dakka currently who —regardless of their political beliefs— regularly derail threads, intentionally agitate other users, and act in a fashion which is altogether incompatible with intelligent discussion. For reasons beyond my ken, these users have somehow not been banned, and continue to ruin perfectly constructive conversations to their hearts' content. Of course, for reasons which are best left to the sociologists, the users who most regularly exhibit this behavior also hold strong right-wing beliefs, but acknowledging this fact in and of itself serves to muddle the greater point that these people regularly break Dakka's Rule 1 and get away with it scot-free. Part of the problem is that whenever these users are held to task, they seem to hold their arms behind their backs like a child who knocked over their mother's vase and cry about their horrific mistreatment, which of course is no doubt politically motivated and the fault of the horrific Radical Left. This, of course, is false, as there are plenty of conservative users on this site who don't act like easily-amused preteens at any given opportunity. To reiterate, this issue is entirely separate from any political discourse, no matter what certain people may have you believe, and should in my humble opinion be treated thusly.



Pointing out that this is BS is not a Rule 1 violation, the continued Rule 1 Violations that seem to go unpunished are name calling from your side that gets threads shut down. This very thread started with a Rule 1 Violation.


Im going to bring back a scenario from earlier in the thread to demonstrate.

Everyone
"Nazis are evil and should be banned"

Liberals
"Yes we agree, but we also want other evil ideologies and hate groups banned, like communists/socialist derived groups"

Socialists/communists
"No, you can't ban those because they never did nothing wrong ever and I like them, but the evil Nazis should be banned still"

Liberals
"We can literally see the mountains of corpses caused by your ideology and have first hand experience of your actions"

Socialists/communists
"Ah so your a Nazi!!!!! Because only a Nazi would oppose communists, liberals get the bullet too"

Mod
Thread Closed

Socialists/communists
"See what you did, you got another thread closed you Nazi"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 13:34:18


 
   
Made in de
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Nuremberg

As a clarification for americans and others with a different understanding of the term liberal, in Europe and elsewhere it means something like a libertarian rather than someone left wing.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I'm surprised that the public response from Dakka/the mods to being threatened and accused of being pro-Nazi has been so tepid thus far.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

A journalist that looks into this is not gonna find anything worth reporting on. I agree though, ending the post with that was poor form, as was the provocative title.

But what kind of response would you expect? They ban the poster in question, it just feeds the perception the poster already had, doesn't it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 13:58:33


   
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Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

tbh like that part was a bit much hahaha, like what journalist? BoLS? Spikeybits?
   
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






I think there is an issue in the forum, and I appreciate the discussion about consistent behaviours, as opposed to direct statements. It isn't a huge problem, there aren't that many posters, but there are posters that absolutely are far-right if not fascists in full, and if they are not they are just here to disrupt.

Pivoting back to something a previous poster said though about direct rule violations... Seriously, what does a poster like Goldenhorn for example actually bring to the forum as a whole? Why does someone with such evident behaviours of trolling (and that is putting it lightly) get so much leeway to disrupt?

Also, wholesale shutting down threads absolutely does not help things to come to a resolution, it is just passing the book to another thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 14:26:15


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 Lord Damocles wrote:
I'm surprised that the public response from Dakka/the mods to being threatened and accused of being pro-Nazi has been so tepid thus far.


The mods on DakkaDakka have pretty thick skins, which is much to their credit and often underappreciated. Or at least, if they have thin skins they don't let us see it which is still to their credit

 Da Boss wrote:
As a clarification for Americans and others with a different understanding of the term liberal, in Europe and elsewhere it means something like a libertarian rather than someone left wing.


Part of the issue is that a lot of these words have a lot of meanings and insistent arguments based in simple/self-serving categories are usually just an exercise in pointless semantics and not an honest discussion.

Especially when a topic moves past the actual topic and becomes an argument over broader political ideologies. I've long given up expecting people to get this, let alone the convolutedly confusing evolution of the word 'socialism' and its varied meanings. Libertarian doesn't even mean the same thing in Europe that it does over here. Here it's more often than not shorthand for being a fan of Ayn Rand. In Europe it still seems to have some of its older classical liberal connotations that have mostly been swept aside this side of the pond after it was captured to mean something almost entirely the opposite.

It's one reason why spiraling tangents born of off-topic political rants are a problem. People aren't working from the same vocabulary, and in a desperate ignorant certainty, they invent entire histories based on their limited basis of knowledge that involves filling a lot of gaps with things they think they know (see the Dunning-Kruger Effect) and it just becomes extremely angry white noise that doesn't go anywhere useful, but does inevitably get a vitriolic response from someone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that at present this whole element seems to be only on Dakka of the hobby groups I'm on. Only Dakka seems to be having a core issue (granted I don't step into 4Chan or Reddit). This suggests to me that this is a community issue and action of a few Dakka users in particular - most likely striking off each other - rather than something endemic in the modern wargaming scene at large. At least online.


4Chan is weird, because twice now people have brought it up like it's some place to go to have politically charged discussions.

Here is how this thread would go if it were on 4Chan:

Poster: Do you guys ever get angry that there seem to be a lot of people weirdly okay with Nazism around here?
4Chan: Have you ever shat a pee and then wondered if dogs dream of electric sheep?
4Chan: Of course not, OP is too busy <explicitly descriptions of sex acts with ones own mother followed by an animal gif that doesn't seem related>

I kid of course but I'm baffled that this has been expressed in this thread twice now.

4Chan is not a discussion board. 4Chan is 4Chan. It's it's own bizarre internet entity that has very little to almost nothing in common with any other place on the net. While it's commonly presumed by righty's and lefty's (paradoxically) to be a bastion for the other side, I'd say the only thing that is consistent about 4Chan's site-wide political ideology is that it doesn't give a gak about your political ideology, it'll spend all its time churning out insane memes and nonsense responses because that's what 4Chan does. There's really no comparison between 4Chan and Dakka on this topic that probably goes anywhere.

Reddit, and I browse my topic spaces on Reddit, does have this problem as much as Dakka does. The thing there is that a subreddit is basically just one super long board. Imagine if DakkaDakka had no subboards and everything was just slapped on the front page. Which topics do you think would be consistently at the top? If you guessed showcases you'd be right! The front page of a lot of hobby subreddits are generally dominated by pictures and advice for painting with frequent rules discussions and bashing the parent company for not knowing their audience (and yeah that sounds like Dakka) but because it's all on one page other stuff that isn't that tends to be pushed down and out of sight.

Even then I just looked and this thread is at the top of the 40k subreddit right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/qxev9v/the_imperium_is_driven_by_hate_warhammer_is_not/ so this dude's hoody sparking discussion over the space is not limited to just DakkaDakka. Though funnily enough, the convo over on the Reddit was a bit tamer than it was here, but that probably owes to Reddit's formating which is good for shooting off short and quick responses but bad for long-form discussion. You kind of have to dig into a reddit thread to find the usual 'no you're evil' nonsense cause it gets hidden from view by the way the website displays. All of this same behavior is still over there, but it's easier to not notice it because of how Reddit works.

DakkaDakka probably does have more protracted debates than Reddit, but that too owes itself to Dakka's format. Discussions are less fire and forget here, and if someone gets really really pissy about moderation or certain users on DakkaDakka, it's not as easy to just say "We'll then I'll go make my own DakkaDakka, with blackjack, and hookers!" Subreddits splitting is a common thing on Reddit cause making a new subreddit is pretty easy. That serves itself as a sort of pressure valve for communities there. It's a lot harder for someone to just make their own version of DakkaDakka but with a different approach to handling X problem.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/11/28 14:54:42


   
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Earth

Yo dawg, Formosa is using actual nazi talking points to defend nazis. You really should do something about that.


oh look another lie, you are so far gone down the radical rabbit hole you cannot tell a liberal arguing from the liberal standpoint and a Nazi, that is it YOU that is issue here, not I.



Most of us just don't want to deal with nazis in the community.


"perceived" Nazi, the bogey man, the "other" you need to feel validated in persecuting, problem is there is a really bad supply problem for the demand you all have, there are no Nazis here, just people you call Nazis




You are no historian


How do you know and not that it matters, I am still right

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 15:33:45


 
   
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 Da Boss wrote:
A journalist that looks into this is not gonna find anything worth reporting on. I agree though, ending the post with that was poor form, as was the provocative title.

But what kind of response would you expect? They ban the poster in question, it just feeds the perception the poster already had, doesn't it?


You must not have seen the same clickbait that I have. You could easily do a couple of articles on how DakkaDakka is harboring Nazis and Fascists based on a few recently locked threads.

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Hmmmm... No? Not in the slightest!?

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 Da Boss wrote:
A journalist that looks into this is not gonna find anything worth reporting on. I agree though, ending the post with that was poor form, as was the provocative title.


I dunno, journalists these days love their clickbaity articles where they throw people or groups of people under the bus for very little reason.

A few out of context posts and a title of "Have neo nazis found a new home in wargaming?" seems like just the sort of thing some "journalists" would do an article on.
   
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Totalitarian ‘progressives’ need to see ‘Nazis’ behind every bush, to validate their own extremist views…
   
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I've been thinking about this, off and on, and I do think I've come up with a practical solution that could be worth trying, as there seems to be one broad behavior that most triggers derailment.

While it is fine to discuss politics adjacent to wargaming, bringing in wider political labels, especially when used pejoratively, should not be allowed. Simply don't allow use of the term fascisms, communism, "wokeism," SJW, alt-right, none of it.

So, if we need to discuss, say, shipping delays, we can do that, but stick to the issues and the facts, and no potshots or asides about other political groups. This would, by inclusion, eliminate the "whataboutism" that is, ironically, a classic tactic of authoritarians.

For example, if you look at this very thread, has several posters making swipes, both veiled and overt, at various left wide groups (even more, if you count the "media.") At some point, that is simply de facto general political discussion. It's not about the topic, it's just people vomiting rhetoric at political groups and movements they don't like {edited due to overstatement}

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 00:52:07


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 Polonius wrote:
I've been thinking about this, off and on, and I do think I've come up with a practical solution that could be worth trying, as there seems to be one broad behavior that most triggers derailment.

While it is fine to discuss politics adjacent to wargaming, bringing in wider political labels, especially when used pejoratively, should not be allowed. Simply don't allow use of the term fascisms, communism, "wokeism," SJW, alt-right, none of it.

So, if we need to discuss, say, shipping delays, we can do that, but stick to the issues and the facts, and no potshots or asides about other political groups. This would, by inclusion, eliminate the "whataboutism" that is, ironically, a classic tactic of authoritarians.


This, this is the Polonius we need.

 Polonius wrote:
For example, if you look at this very thread, it's full of people making all kinds of swipes, from veiled to overt, at various left wide groups (even more, if you count the "media.") At some point, that is simply de facto general political discussion. It's not about the topic, it's just people vomiting rhetoric at political groups and movements they don't like


This, on the other hand just boggles my mind, in a second thread that is basically an attack on various right side individuals as its basis, the fact that you would post this just makes me shake my head in awe and be wonderment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 00:10:09


 
   
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Macon, GA

This, on the other hand just boggles my mind, in a second thread that is basically an attack on various right side individuals as its basis, the fact that you would post this just makes me shake my head in awe and be wonderment.


Okay, I overstated it. It's not full. I amended my post. That said:

Formosa wrote:Socialists/communists
"Ah so your a Nazi!!!!! Because only a Nazi would oppose communists, liberals get the bullet too"


H.B.M.C. wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
Sufficient Velocity does just fine.
Go an express any non-left wing opinion at SV and see how far you get, but that's drifting way off topic, so I'll walk away from that..


totalfailure wrote:Totalitarian ‘progressives’ need to see ‘Nazis’ behind every bush, to validate their own extremist views…





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 00:52:22


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Jerram wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
An obvious issue here is that there are two points of discussion that get conflated in every single one of these threads.


However, the second issue is a lot more cut-and-dry: Rule 1 violations. There are a few users on Dakka currently who —regardless of their political beliefs— regularly derail threads, intentionally agitate other users, and act in a fashion which is altogether incompatible with intelligent discussion. For reasons beyond my ken, these users have somehow not been banned, and continue to ruin perfectly constructive conversations to their hearts' content. Of course, for reasons which are best left to the sociologists, the users who most regularly exhibit this behavior also hold strong right-wing beliefs, but acknowledging this fact in and of itself serves to muddle the greater point that these people regularly break Dakka's Rule 1 and get away with it scot-free. Part of the problem is that whenever these users are held to task, they seem to hold their arms behind their backs like a child who knocked over their mother's vase and cry about their horrific mistreatment, which of course is no doubt politically motivated and the fault of the horrific Radical Left. This, of course, is false, as there are plenty of conservative users on this site who don't act like easily-amused preteens at any given opportunity. To reiterate, this issue is entirely separate from any political discourse, no matter what certain people may have you believe, and should in my humble opinion be treated thusly.



Pointing out that this is BS is not a Rule 1 violation, the continued Rule 1 Violations that seem to go unpunished are name calling from your side that gets threads shut down. This very thread started with a Rule 1 Violation.


Im going to bring back a scenario from earlier in the thread to demonstrate.

Everyone
"Nazis are evil and should be banned"

Liberals
"Yes we agree, but we also want other evil ideologies and hate groups banned, like communists/socialist derived groups"

Socialists/communists
"No, you can't ban those because they never did nothing wrong ever and I like them, but the evil Nazis should be banned still"

Liberals
"We can literally see the mountains of corpses caused by your ideology and have first hand experience of your actions"

Socialists/communists
"Ah so your a Nazi!!!!! Because only a Nazi would oppose communists, liberals get the bullet too"

Mod
Thread Closed

Socialists/communists
"See what you did, you got another thread closed you Nazi"


Yes, I'm sure implying that I support "mountains of corpses" for disagreeing with you is definitely a hallmark of civil political discussion.

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Polonius, Cmon you can be better than this, in a thread where the OP started by calling specific people NAZI sympathizers (Before someone edited it) Complaining about those evil people insulting innocent left side groups while pretending to be an honest broker is dishonest as all get up. It's like a referee calling a roughing penalty on the guy who has blood pouring from an intentional slash in the face because you have money on the other team.


Flipsiders how about

Everyone
"Nazis are evil and should be banned"

Liberals
"Yes we agree, but we also want other evil ideologies and hate groups banned, like communists/socialist derived groups"

Socialists/communists
"No, you can't ban those because they never did nothing wrong ever and I like them, but the evil Nazis should be banned still"

Liberals
"We can literally see the mountains of corpses caused by that ideology""

Socialists/communists
"Ah so your a Nazi!!!!! Because only a Nazi would oppose communists"

Mod
Thread Closed

Socialists/communists
"See what you did, you got another thread closed you Nazi"

Thats actually much closer to what actually happened anyways.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 01:19:39


 
   
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
A journalist that looks into this is not gonna find anything worth reporting on. I agree though, ending the post with that was poor form, as was the provocative title.


I dunno, journalists these days love their clickbaity articles where they throw people or groups of people under the bus for very little reason.

A few out of context posts and a title of "Have neo nazis found a new home in wargaming?" seems like just the sort of thing some "journalists" would do an article on.


They've been churning out those articles for a while now - this one from CBC.ca popped up on my FB feed this morning.
   
 
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