Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Well there's an example of what i was talking about.

That's a normal human on a robohorse. But he's tougher than asurmen and has more attacks in combat. He has better abilities.

Yes, and it's the "mounted" bit that gives him T4.

So apparently only Eldar heroes that are walking infinity circuits of 10,000 years of ghosts and warp power have stay t3 but normal human on a horse can be t4.and lead units....

Weren't you telling me to get over it when Skitarii got their armour save dumped down to less than Guardians?

Cyborgs with subdermal plating, bionics, and combat armour is somehow "less protected" than guys wearing mesh armor. Make it make sense.

Eldar armour has always been described as better than imperial armour. Mesh armour was always supposed to be better than flak, but 3rd Ed squashed saves together. Skittari wear the same armour as guard and get a 6++ invuln to reflect their bionic upgrades (something that was a standard bionic rule in previous editions). They also have the opportunity to ignore -1ap from their detachment, further improving their armour.

So that makes sense to me. Your premise that mesh armour is inferior is wrong.

Your line infantry treated as expendable tools and experiments are also not an equivalent example to singular demigod characters that face off against other demigod characters.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Karandras lost 1w, 1t, 1a on fist, 4a on sword. In exchange he got sustained hits 1.

Seth didn't lose any of his melee abilities or stats. And he also gained sustained hits... Can't imagine they decided to boost Seth specifically over other marine characters, so I am pretty confident they will all come out smelling of roses while non imperial characters get smacked for daring to look as good as them. This is marine hammer 40k after all.

Hard to see if as anything

Karandras explodes on 4s and gets DW. So he used to get 6 hits with the fist -- he'll get 6+ now. It's important to note that lots of stuff is getting nerfed. Leontus lost a couple pips, but he's also written very close to 10th.

He only explodes on 4s on the charge and his mandiblasters used to just do do flat 2 extra mw if you rolled a 6 to wound.

My point is that of the characters we've seen, only the marines and imperials look the least nerfed (or in fact just got flat out better). Orks, nids and Eldar all got their special characters mutilated while marines get to keep their cool charcetes, and put them in units and get cool primarchs as well.

 Hellebore wrote:

Eldar armour has always been described as better than imperial armour. Mesh armour was always supposed to be better than flak, but 3rd Ed squashed saves together. Skittari wear the same armour as guard

Skitarii wear carapace equivalent, not "the same armour as Guard".

and get a 6++ invuln to reflect their bionic upgrades (something that was a standard bionic rule in previous editions).

Bionics have been a lot of things. You'll have to be more specific.

For Skitarii? They've been a FNP(6+) and then a rather lackluster invulnerable save.

They also have the opportunity to ignore -1ap from their detachment, further improving their armour.

You have to be in your deployment zone, and it's not that you "ignore it"--it's that you worsen the armour penetration characteristic.

So that makes sense to me. Your premise that mesh armour is inferior is wrong.

My premise was not that "mesh armour is inferior". That was you ascribing a motive to my argument that was not present.

My premise is that it's daft that they dumped the armor save down on Skitarii while buffing it on the Pathfinders for T'au and retaining the 4+ on Guardians.

Your line infantry treated as expendable tools and experiments

Which are also apparently recovered after battles, rebuilt, and brought back to service?

Yeah, that just screams "expendable tools and experiments".

As a reminder, the actual "line infantry"? That's the Servitors. The Skitarii are the militarized grouping while the Electropriests are the Guardian equivalents of citizens trying their best(albeit with LIGHTNING!).

are also not an equivalent example to singular demigod characters that face off against other demigod characters.

Sure they are. It's something you're not happy about.

You said:

Cyborgs with subdermal plating, bionics, and combat armour is somehow "less protected" than guys wearing mesh armor. Make it make sense.


That implies you think that mesh armour shouldn't be better, ergo worse or at best equal.

5+, 6++ and at least 1 turn of of reduce ap by 1 while not mechanically identical to sv4+, is certainly not as bad as you make it out to be.

I'm unsure why they ever made pathfinders sv5+ in the first place. They were always wearing tau carapace armour.



Given their unwillingness to provide speed protection to fast armies, 4+ is about as good an abstraction for guardians as you can get these days.

I'd have rather they been -1 to hit, but they refuse that sort of thing.

Sure they are. It's something you're not happy about.

That is a false equivalence fallacy. In the same way that not being happy about genocide and not being happy about pineapple on pizza are not equivalent.

 Hellebore wrote:
You said:

Cyborgs with subdermal plating, bionics, and combat armour is somehow "less protected" than guys wearing mesh armor. Make it make sense.


That implies you think that mesh armour shouldn't be better, ergo worse or at best equal.

Or it implies that I think the degradation was arbitrarily random and the result of the absolute lack of knowledge that the studio design team has of their own lore?

5+, 6++ and at least 1 turn of of reduce ap by 1 while not mechanically identical to sv4+, is certainly not as bad as you make it out to be.

And yet, I'm absolutely 100% positive that you wouldn't take it for the Guardians.

I'm unsure why they ever made pathfinders sv5+ in the first place. They were always wearing tau carapace armour.

Negative. They've always been described as wearing "Pathfinder Armour", explicitly called out as being less protective.

Of course, if you want to argue that Pathfinders should be the 'standard' for a 4+ save? I'll take it. That means Cadians should be a 4+ save while Scions and Kasrkin go to a 3+.

Given their unwillingness to provide speed protection to fast armies, 4+ is about as good an abstraction for guardians as you can get these days.

I'd have rather they been -1 to hit, but they refuse that sort of thing.

Nah. 5+ would have been fine, since they're just your "expendable line infantry".

Ok, if you're going to bring up genocide in reference to toy soldiers, can this back and forth go away and let this thread go back to reveals?

 Kanluwen wrote:

And yet, I'm absolutely 100% positive that you wouldn't take it for the Guardians.

Nah. 5+ would have been fine, since they're just your "expendable line infantry".

I used the phrase expendable line infantry in a specific not generic sense. As in, the skitarii are considered expendable line infantry by their own army.

Guardians are the exact opposite - non expendable line infantry. They are a non renewable resource for the Eldar.

I would take rules that reflect that over a 4+ save if there is one. A 5+ sv does not.

Skitarii can be rebuilt, regrown replaced. They are cheap in the logistical faction sense.



@voss I should have said pineapple vs speed limits or something. The point was about false equivalences.

So... Karandras has the same rule as Asurmen, but with a different name... who has the same rule as the Tallyman, but with a different name.

Did GW forget about USRs halfway through writing this edition?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... Karandras has the same rule as Asurmen, but with a different name... who has the same rule as the Tallyman, but with a different name.

Did GW forget about USRs halfway through writing this edition?

I think their logic is that some of these rules have exceptions. There was an example but I can't recall it atm.

Obviously they could make a usr with a little creativity. A job for the next edition, I guess.

Hellbore is definitely proving my point about Eldar players acting more entitled than Marine players LOL

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Hellbore is definitely proving my point about Eldar players acting more entitled than Marine players LOL

Marine players get everything handed to them on a platter.

I haven't had to argue for any space wolf faction issues since 1993 when I started them. It's only when I started playing non marines I found just how biased the game is. No one gets questioned if they expect a chapter master to be cool or a primarch to kickass, that goes without saying. But take the same position for ghazghkull or phoenix Lords and then you're being entitled?

Marines get to hide behind bolter.porn to justify awesomeness but no one else gets the same. Lion is cool and did X y z. So here's his ridiculous statline. Maugan ra defeats a hive fleet by himself but that's just hyperbole and how dare you expect similar cool stats.


Arguing over how a unit protects it's troops is an entirely separate proposition to how your characters are presented.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Going with the meh-ness of DG - an enhancement that is meh.

Spoiler:

The real question is what auras really exist BESIDES Nurgles Gift now that HQs only buff the units they're attached to?

There were a few here and there - Two of the Lion's three choices are an Aura, Guilliman had one of three, Keeper of Secrets had one, Belakor had 1 plus one of three, Angron had three of three, Makari/Ghaz has one, according to earlier in the thread on here the Lord of Change has one, Morty has the DG one, his own one, and 3 of 3 on his Pick One list. Bloodthirster has one.

Not sure Guilliman and the Bloodthirster having auras is going to aid the effectiveness of a DG enhancement

Increasing the Foot Prince's FnP aura from 6" to 9" might be significant though...

Charax wrote:
Not sure Guilliman and the Bloodthirster having auras is going to aid the effectiveness of a DG enhancement

Increasing the Foot Prince's FnP aura from 6" to 9" might be significant though...

Oh, I thought the question was generic. Morty has a bunch - I wouldn't be too surprised if the enhancements we haven't seen provide a few here and there.

Other enchantments wouldn't matter since talk is about enchantment increasing aura range and no multiple enchantment for 1 hero

And epic heroes unlikely to get enchantments.

Scout sentinels being able to take orders is interesting. Take cover could help to keep them alive from ap-1 weapons.

So, veterans hit on a 4+ as I had suspected when the necron warriors were spoiled.

We have finally killed the concept that 4+ is baseline and 3+ is veteran.

No, 4+ is human, 3+ is superhuman.

Now what I want to know is simply why sisters are 3+, because everything else makes sense.

Dkok medi-packs are not in the options list. So, unless the option was cut off, the rule is impossible to use.

Spoletta wrote:
So, veterans hit on a 4+ as I had suspected when the necron warriors were spoiled.

We have finally killed the concept that 4+ is baseline and 3+ is veteran.

No, 4+ is human, 3+ is superhuman.

Now what I want to know is simply why sisters are 3+, because everything else makes sense.

You're projecting your own interpretation of what a 4+ or 3+ means and then wondering why the rules don't conform to your internalised perception

3+ isn't "superhuman" - Leontus hits on 2+, is he superhuman? His horse hits on 4+, is the horse trained to the same level as a Veteran?

When every possible level of skill is reduced to a 5-point scale (because you can't hit on a 1+) there is a hell of a lot of abstraction going on

I was referring to the fact that when I initially assumed that veterans were going to be 4+, I've been told that "4+ is baseline, 3+ is veteran" has been a rule of 40k since forever and that veterans for sure would get a 3+

Tossing up what I missed:

Warp Spiders


Vypers


Guardians


Wave Serpent


Support Weapons


Avengers


Strats


Enhancements



Automatically Appended Next Post:
IG Strats




Automatically Appended Next Post:
IG Enhancements

I've coughed up things more exciting than those enhancements.

Bloody hell this edition is going to be boring.

I was sort of struggling to follow the scoring last night, but am I right in thinking the IG would have won if they'd made their gambit roll?

As said from the outset - I think people are going to find a game which comes down to some unlikely final roll* to be a bit weird, even if it means things go to end rather than clearly being over much sooner.

Is there some place where you can watch the second game?

Ouch, the Wave Serpent got kinda boned on the Twin Linking.

Spoletta wrote:
Is there some place where you can watch the second game?

www.twitch.tv/warhammer
14ish hour video from yesterday. They start setting up about 9.50~ or so.

 vipoid wrote:
I've coughed up things more exciting than those enhancements.

Bloody hell this edition is going to be boring.

I definitely appreciate that they seem to have stuck with a reasonable approach. We'll see what happens in codexes and creep.

I'd prefer they didn't creep them even if it seems boring by comparison.

A note on sternguard....they have the nerfed combi. So I'm guessing the model was made well before the rules.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I've coughed up things more exciting than those enhancements.

Bloody hell this edition is going to be boring.

I definitely appreciate that they seem to have stuck with a reasonable approach. We'll see what happens in codexes and creep.

I'd prefer they didn't creep them even if it seems boring by comparison.

It's not just that they're weak, it's that they're so dull (sans maybe the Phoenix Stone).

It might not be so bad if GW hadn't also
- Stripped non-weapon wargear options to the bone.
- Consolidated weapons (or removed them outright) so that many characters have little or no choice.
- Removed all choice from psychic powers.
- Limited you to 1 enhancement per character (when previously you could have both a warlord trait and an artefact).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I've coughed up things more exciting than those enhancements.

Bloody hell this edition is going to be boring.

I definitely appreciate that they seem to have stuck with a reasonable approach. We'll see what happens in codexes and creep.

I'd prefer they didn't creep them even if it seems boring by comparison..

Same. I'm more excited these are sane rather than random piles of nonsense.

They honestly could have gone further- I don't think people are grasping the whole package yet and how many moving bits and bobs are still present.

 Hellebore wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Hellbore is definitely proving my point about Eldar players acting more entitled than Marine players LOL

Marine players get everything handed to them on a platter.

I haven't had to argue for any space wolf faction issues since 1993 when I started them. It's only when I started playing non marines I found just how biased the game is. No one gets questioned if they expect a chapter master to be cool or a primarch to kickass, that goes without saying. But take the same position for ghazghkull or phoenix Lords and then you're being entitled?

Marines get to hide behind bolter.porn to justify awesomeness but no one else gets the same. Lion is cool and did X y z. So here's his ridiculous statline. Maugan ra defeats a hive fleet by himself but that's just hyperbole and how dare you expect similar cool stats.


Arguing over how a unit protects it's troops is an entirely separate proposition to how your characters are presented.

Yawn, you done?

Phoenix Lords die and are just stones, so they're obviously not that powerful.

Half kidding aside, while the shift to T3 for Phoenix Lords is weird, you seriously need to get over it because Eldar have always broken the game more than Marines. Eldar kept their upgraded Guardians while Necron Warriors, Skitarii, the basic Votaan dudes, etc. lost a LOT of their power.

 vipoid wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I've coughed up things more exciting than those enhancements.

Bloody hell this edition is going to be boring.

I definitely appreciate that they seem to have stuck with a reasonable approach. We'll see what happens in codexes and creep.

I'd prefer they didn't creep them even if it seems boring by comparison.

It's not just that they're weak, it's that they're so dull (sans maybe the Phoenix Stone).

It might not be so bad if GW hadn't also
- Stripped non-weapon wargear options to the bone.
- Consolidated weapons (or removed them outright) so that many characters have little or no choice.
- Removed all choice from psychic powers.
- Limited you to 1 enhancement per character (when previously you could have both a warlord trait and an artefact).

At the same time rippers are OC0, but halve the OC of enemies. I really enjoy that sort of tactical consideration.